Hundreds die in Israel raid on Gaza

[schroder]

It seems that the point as to whether or not Hamas and/or law enforcement agencies are legally defined as civilians is moot. Just because civilians were killed, doesn't automatically mean that a war crime has been committed:

Yes, of course we must focus on the technicalities! The number of civilian deaths is not important; what really matters here is to determine whether or not a “war crime” was committed. Let’s not let real blood and guts get in the way of our abstract technical analysis!

 

[Cyrus]

Israel has every right to go after the criminals launching rockets at them. They expressly do not have the right to inflict collective punishment on the citizenry of the Gaza strip. To do so is defined under international law as a crime against humanity. Just as the Nazis were punished for their reprisal actions against French civilians in response to attacks from the resistance so should Israel's leaders be held accountable.

Does it escape you that they were not 'inflicting collective punishment on the citizenry'? How many times must you be told this fact by multiple members before it starts to sink in?

You are chosing your words quite poorly to make it fit the point you want to make.

 

[tiny-tim]

It seems people have lost sight of the fact Hamas are the democratically elected leaders of the Palestinians, just because Israel labels them all as terrorists does not make it so.

So you're denying that Hamas are terrorists?

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas" :

Hamas is listed as a terrorist organization by Canada,[19] the European Union,[20][21][22][23] Israel,[24] Japan,[25] and the United States,[26] and is banned in Jordan.

That's what makes it so.

 

[Art]

Does it escape you that they were not 'inflicting collective punishment on the citizenry'? How many times must you be told this fact by multiple members before it starts to sink in?

You are chosing your words quite poorly to make it fit the point you want to make.

Holding 1.5 million people imprisoned behind a metal fence whilst cutting off all their contact with the outside world, severely limiting even fuel and humanitarian aid deliveries into this prison is collective punishment.

Destroying police stations, a university, municipal buildings and even a mosque killing many civilians in retaliation for the actions of a few criminals is collective punishment. Israel actually makes no secret of this. It has publicly stated that it's intention is to pressurise the citizenry to push Hamas out of power.

Meanwhile would you say Israel broke the ceasefire with it's attacks on Nov 5 th when it invaded the Gaza strip accompanied by air strikes which killed 7, injured many more and took dozens of 'prisoners' in deir al-balah? On Nov 11 th Israeli special forces attacked bu Safiya killing a further 6 Palestinians. It was in response to these and other infractions that the militants began firing rockets again and why Hamas figured it was a waste of time extending the ceasefire when it expired a month later.

 

[devil-fire]

I have no idea what you are talking about. The attack was not indiscriminate, so to claim 'lasting peace is to kill enough people in Gaza' is beyond ridiculous.

But more to the point, you're also wrong. If there is no one that hates Israel, then by definition that would bring lasting peace. I am not making the claim to this position, nor has anyone else (except you). But the argument you make against this claim is flat out wrong.

You seem to say it is ridiculous that killing enough people in Gaza will bring lasting peace then also say it would bring lasting peace by definition and that I'm the only one making claim to this position? I feel like I'm being grossly misinterpreted here.

I didn't claim the Israeli attacks were indiscriminate, I claimed they were attacking people who hated Israel. I don't know what you mean by "making claim to this position" but I was stating that I didn't think this (killing enough people who hate Israel) was going to bring lasting peace to the area. I also didn't make any argument against this claim, I only said I didn't think it was going to bring lasting peace to the area.

 

[Art]

So you're denying that Hamas are terrorists?

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas" :That's what makes it so.

Your enemy is always a terrorist, it seems now even when it is a democratically elected one. The Americans who rose up against the British in the war of independence were labelled terrorists. The British commandos were labelled terrorists by Hitler. The French resistance were labelled terrorists by the Germans. Iraqis who fought against the British and Americans were labelled terrorists. The Irish who fought in the war of independence against Britain were labelled terrorists. Even the first president of Israel was labelled a terrorist who lead a terrorist organisation. Notice the pattern?

 

[Cyrus]

Destroying police stations, a university, municipal buildings and even a mosque killing many civilians in retaliation for the actions of a few criminals is collective punishment. Israel actually makes no secret of this. It has publicly stated that it's intention is to pressurise the citizenry to push Hamas out of power.

Could you provide a source of what those said actions were?

Meanwhile would you say Israel broke the ceasefire with it's attacks on Nov 5 th when it invaded the Gaza strip accompanied by air strikes which killed 7, injured many more and took dozens of 'prisoners' in deir al-balah? On Nov 11 th Israeli special forces attacked bu Safiya killing a further 6 Palestinians. It was in response to these and other infractions that the militants began firing rockets again and why Hamas figured it was a waste of time extending the ceasefire when it expired a month later.

No, I'd say Hamas broke the ceasefire based on what you wrote in this post, considering it was in retaliation for the actions 'of a few criminals'.

 

[Cyrus]

Your enemy is always a terrorist, it seems now even when it is a democratically elected one. The Americans who rose up against the British in the war of independence were labelled terrorists. The British commandos were labelled terrorists by Hitler. The French resistance were labelled terrorists by the Germans. Iraqis who fought against the British and Americans were labelled terrorists. Notice the pattern?

Why do you assume a democratically elected government is by default friendly?

 

[Art]

Why do you assume a democratically elected government is by default friendly?

I make no such assumption.

 

[Art]

No, I'd say Hamas broke the ceasefire based on what you wrote in this post, considering it was in retaliation for the actions 'of a few criminals'.

Okay, that exposes your bias so there is really nothing more to say to you on this.

 

[Art]

It seems that the point as to whether or not Hamas and/or law enforcement agencies are legally defined as civilians is moot. Just because civilians were killed, doesn't automatically mean that a war crime has been committed:



Article 51.-Protection of the civilian population

It does if they are civilians and have been deliberately targeted. That's about as cast iron a case of a war crime as you are ever likely to find.

 

[Cyrus]

Okay, that exposes your bias so there is really nothing more to say to you on this.

So, you can't provide me with a source to your claim? ......hmmmmmmmm.

 

[Evo]

It does if they are civilians and have been deliberately targeted. That's about as cast iron a case of a war crime as you are ever likely to find.

But that's not the case according to accounts. You are continuing to make false statements as truth and that is a violation of the guidelines.

 

[tiny-tim]

but Canada, the European Union, Japan, the USA, and Jordan, call Hamas terrorists

Your enemy is always a terrorist, it seems now even when it is a democratically elected one. The Americans who rose up against the British in the war of independence were labelled terrorists. The British commandos were labelled terrorists by Hitler. The French resistance were labelled terrorists by the Germans. Iraqis who fought against the British and Americans were labelled terrorists. The Irish who fought in the war of independence against Britain were labelled terrorists. Even the first president of Israel was labelled a terrorist who lead a terrorist organisation.

Notice the pattern?

yes … the pattern is that one side calls the other side terrorists.

Hamas does not fit this pattern … Canada, the European Union, Japan, the USA, and Jordan, call Hamas terrorists, and Hamas is not their enemy!

And you haven't answered …

are you denying that Hamas are terrorists?​

 

[AhmedEzz]

What are the Palestinians doing to remove Hamas? As long as Hamas is hiding out within the civilian population, they are the ones responsible for what happens.

Dear Evo, you are making a very harsh judgment. Do you think in the circumstances those people live in (which I think you have almost no idea of) they can do anything against a terrorist group like Hamas? it takes a strong and organized force to standup to such groups. In Egypt, in Algeria , in Indonesia those groups are present but are dealt with firmly and exterminated by the government. I don't think "We hate you" rallies would suffice (there have been rallies before and were the protesters were attacked)

By the way, Hamas desperately needed this kind of response from Israel, and Israel handed it on a silver platter. Hamas's popularity grew and Israel gave them a reason to exist once more.

If Israel wants to eradicate Hamas, let it (I hope it does) but leave the people out of this, please.

 

[Evo]

If Israel wants to eradicate Hamas, let it (I hope it does) but leave the people out of this, please.

How would you suggest Israel eradicate Hamas without civilian casualties?

 

[AhmedEzz]

Civilian casualties is something else Evo, it is 100% something else. If "un-intentionally" and after making its preparations to avoid civilian deaths, some not a lot but some civilian casualties happened then Israel should make a statement that innocent blood was shed "accidentally" while targeting Hamas. Sorry Evo but this is not the case

 

[mgb_phys]

Interesting timing.
Over christmas, slow news days following a month of financial crisis packed days when this wouldn't have been noticed. Very media friendly pictures of tanks and warplanes etc.

So definitely sending a message. Is it to force the incoming US administration to stand by their pre-election support? Are there internal elections in Israel coming up? Or is there a domestic political/financial crises to distract people from.

 

[AhmedEzz]

Interesting point of view...

 

[Jimmy Snyder]

Civilian casualties is something else Evo, it is 100% something else. If "un-intentionally" and after making its preparations to avoid civilian deaths, some not a lot but some civilian casualties happened then Israel should make a statement that innocent blood was shed "accidentally" while targeting Hamas. Sorry Evo but this is not the case

Israel is trying to avoid civilian casualties, Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni told reporters Monday, while "Hamas is looking for children to kill." "Hamas is targeting deliberately kindergartens and schools and citizens and civilians because this is according to their values. Our values are completely different. We are trying to target Hamas, which hides among civilians," Livni said.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/28404637/page/2/"
That's a statement. I suppose Hamas could issue a similar statement putting it the other way around. The events of the past few days show that Israel is totally incapable of correctly handling terrorist attacks and should be banned from receiving them any longer.

 

[AhmedEzz]

Civilian casualties is something else Evo, it is 100% something else. If "un-intentionally" and after making its preparations to avoid civilian deaths, some not a lot but some civilian casualties happened then Israel should make a statement that innocent blood was shed "accidentally" while targeting Hamas. Sorry Evo but this is not the case

I think they took care of the statement part

 

[Evo]

I think they took care of the statement part

You want Israel to apologize each time a civilian is accidently hit?

 

[AhmedEzz]

how did you infer that from my response?

I was clear, they took care of the "issuing a statement part" while neglecting the "un-intentionally" and "after making its preparations to avoid civilian deaths" and " some not a lot but some civilian casualties" part which I strongly and firmly stress

 

[drankin]

You want Israel to apologize each time a civilian is accidently hit?

Hamas is certainly NOT apologizing when they kill Isreali civilians. It's a bit of a double standard isn't it?

Once upon a time, an entire civilian cities would be destroyed. The US has done it a few times. Ending a cease-fire ensures a continuation of deaths among all involved.

Why did Hamas not continue the cease-fire? This wouldn't be happening.

 

[Evo]

how did you infer that from my response?

I was clear, they took care of the "issuing a statement part" while neglecting the "un-intentionally" and "after making its preparations to avoid civilian deaths" and " some not a lot but some civilian casualties" part which I strongly and firmly stress

You also said

Israel should make a statement that innocent blood was shed "accidentally" while targeting Hamas.

 

[AhmedEzz]

You also said
Originally Posted by AhmedEzz View Post

Israel should make a statement that innocent blood was shed "accidentally" while targeting Hamas.

Where I then made fun of that by saying that they did "Israel should make a statement" rather than firstly doing the the "un-intentionally" and "making its preparations to avoid civilian deaths" and "ome not a lot but some civilian casualties" part...!

Hamas is certainly NOT apologizing when they kill Isreali civilians. It's a bit of a double standard isn't it?

My friend Hamas is a terrorist organization with its own foreign agenda, it has naught to do with Palestinian resistance.

Why did Hamas not continue the cease-fire? This wouldn't be happening.

Hamas provoked Israel and wanted that response. Israel is NOT punishing Hamas here, the punished here is the civilians.

 

[drankin]

Hamas provoked Israel and wanted that response. Israel is NOT punishing Hamas here, the punished here is the civilians.

Ok, granted, if Hamas is hiding out among the civilian population, civilians are going to be affected. But Isreal is intentionally not occupying Gaza (if I'm following developements correctly), they are only doing remote strikes. The civilians that are being "punished" are in the vacinity of the Hamas, intentionaly among and/or supporting Hamas. If I were in close vacinity of terrorists/thugs/gangs/people bent on killiing, I would move. Especially if military action was going to begin.

And Isreal is punishing Hamas, I've seen a few recent pictures of Hamas militants killed by the strikes.

 

[jreelawg]

Yes, it is
I fail to see the point of your last sentence unless your implying some sort of anti-semitic remarks.

Both sides are semites.

 

[rootX]

I was thinking if the rockets were really fired by Hamas?
http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/europe/12/29/world.protests.gaza/#cnnSTCOther1
And, if Israel or world leaders pressured Hamas to capture those who fired rockets? I couldn't find any source about that.

I think it has more to do with Israel's coming elections.

 

[AhmedEzz]

And Isreal is punishing Hamas, I've seen a few recent pictures of Hamas militants killed by the strikes.

For the sake of argument let's not get this down to the "I saw a few pictures of dead combatants" level. I saw a few pictures of dead children, students, women, old men and destruction of all kind by the way.

The civilians that are being "punished" are in the vacinity of the Hamas, intentionaly among and/or supporting Hamas. If I were in close vacinity of terrorists/thugs/gangs/people bent on killiing, I would move.

This is not a normal circumstance where you can easily "move" to another neighborhood away from the "bad thugs" of Hamas. Hamas took control of all Gaza. There's not getting away from them.

 

[jreelawg]

yes … the pattern is that one side calls the other side terrorists.

Hamas does not fit this pattern … Canada, the European Union, Japan, the USA, and Jordan, call Hamas terrorists, and Hamas is not their enemy!

And you haven't answered …

are you denying that Hamas are terrorists?​

Also, many Islamic states label Israel a terrorist state.

I personally think that the word terrorism takes accuracy out of the equation when it is used so generally. I think specific actions, crimes, military operations etc, should be considered what they are. Terror is terror.:

"terror |ˈterər|
noun
1 extreme fear : people fled in terror | [in sing. ] a terror of darkness.
• the use of such fear to intimidate people, esp. for political reasons : weapons of terror.
• [in sing. ] a person or thing that causes extreme fear : his unyielding scowl became the terror of the Chicago mob.
• ( the Terror) the period of the French Revolution between mid 1793 and July 1794 when the ruling Jacobin faction, dominated by Robespierre, ruthlessly executed anyone considered a threat to their regime. Also called reign of terror .
2 (also holy terror) informal a person, esp. a child, who causes trouble or annoyance : placid and obedient in their parents' presence, but holy terrors when left alone."

Both sides are using terror, and it doesn't seam to be working.

Although Hamas can't possibly believe that killing one or two Israelis with a lucky lob is going to terrify Israel. I think they are provoking attacks to bring attention to the situation in hopes of turning people against Israel.

 

[drankin]

For the sake of argument let's not get this down to the "I saw a few pictures of dead combatants" level. I saw a few pictures of dead children, students, women, old men and destruction of all kind by the way.



This is not a normal circumstance where you can easily "move" to another neighborhood away from the "bad thugs" of Hamas. Hamas took control of all Gaza. There's not getting away from them.

So do you agree that Hamas should be removed from the population?

 

[AhmedEzz]

So do you agree that Hamas should be removed from the population?

I don't know why you make me repeat myself several times but once more : YES!

-although you could easily deduce that if you read my previous posts-

 

[drankin]

I don't know why you make me repeat myself several times but once more : YES!

-although you could easily deduce that if you read my previous posts-

Ok, how do you suggest that Isreal remove Hamas?

 

[AhmedEzz]

assassination, careful (I repeat careful) bombing of their sites while making sure no civilian casualties so that it would not display itself as targeting the civilians but rather as closely targeting Hamas. And if this is not possible then don't do it, find something else, you have military generals and unlimited access to US technologies for crying out loud.