News Hundreds die in Israel raid on Gaza

[schroder]

I am amazed at all these arm-chair military analyses! How many of you have ever been in a war, or even know anybody who was in a war? Where do you get all this expertise from? And, Tiny-Tim, applying your mathematical probability and odds, to the suffering and loss of life, just makes me puke. I am a disabled Vietnam veteran, and I can tell you this much, ALL wars are stupid. I also have experience with Israel, although I am not a Jew, I have served with the Israel MOD and have come to both love and hate the country. This entire problem was created by the Western powers that put Israel in business, without any regard for the Palestinians. I do not trust the Israelis, because they are carrying the psychological scars of the Holocaust, and cannot be trusted to think rationally. Even as they claim to want to provide a Palestinian homeland, they continue to build more settlements near Gaza and the West Bank. The Palestinians have nothing to lose by lobby rockets into Israel, they have nothing, no homeland, and so what do they have to lose? I do not pretend to understand this situation completely, but I do understand that there is NO fundamental difference between the Jews and the Palestinians; they are one and the same. It is Britain and the USA who mainly created this problem, and is those same powers that need to step in and solve it. Give the Palestinians some dignity, give them a homeland, and reign in the dogs of war. Once and for all, lest this conflict continue for another thousand years.

 

[AhmedEzz]

Alright so, hamas is wrong - all the kind of wrong you can imagine-. It is using the lives of innocent (yes, innocent) people to achieve its goals. No matter how many Palestinian civilian is dead,they don't care. I (and many many others) know they are not Palestinian. They receive foreign funds and are there because of a foreign agenda. They have even clashed with Egyptian border forces, killing an officer today and wounding 2 soldiers. They deprived the Muslim pilgrims from going to the SA. They broke their truce with Israel before Israel does anything (yes they did). They tried to break into Egypt and finally turned the lives of people in Gaza to a living hell. If Israel were to hit on hamas, I wouldn't mind.

However, this is not the case, Israel is having a demonstration through the use of overwhelmingly brute force (under the excuse of picking on Hamas to defend itself) against helpless CIVILIANS. They might have hit all the hamas offices in Gaza but the amount of destruction that took place and the number of civilian casualties (including women and children) is inexcusable. Yes hit hamas but only hamas. And also please refrain from making the generalisation that Gazans are all part of hamas or that hamas is hiding within the population.

Even if hamas combatants are hiding within the population this does not make legit targets out of them.

 

[Evo]

Even if hamas combatants are hiding within the population this does not make legit targets out of them.

What are the Palestinians doing to remove Hamas? As long as Hamas is hiding out within the civilian population, they are the ones responsible for what happens.

 

[AhmedEzz]

I would also like to add that the claim of self-defense is useless because there is alternative ways of defending oneself without exterminating a population and destroying infrastructure. Did it ever succeed , I mean the military campaigns and so, did Israeli massacres ever succeed ? I don't think so. Does the American people feel safer after destroying Iraq? I seriously doubt it.

 

[phyzmatix]

It seems that the point as to whether or not Hamas and/or law enforcement agencies are legally defined as civilians is moot. Just because civilians were killed, doesn't automatically mean that a war crime has been committed:

Civilians shall enjoy the protection afforded by this Section, unless and for such time as they take a direct part in hostilities.

Article 51.-Protection of the civilian population

 

[Art]

What are the Palestinians doing to remove Hamas? As long as Hamas is hiding out within the civilian population, they are the ones responsible for what happens.

Where are you suggesting the Palestinians should build their police stations, municipal buildings and universities if not in urban areas

 

[Art]

Does everyone here believe that Isreal should be able to defend themselves or not? If someone lobs missiles in my yard I'm hunting them and everyone associated with them down. That's just me but it seems the right way to defend yourself. I don't understand why everyone is kicking on Isreal when a cease fire was violated by Hamas. Hamas was attacking civilians for crying out loud. So what if Hamas didn't accomplish the killing they intended. What kind of government sits back and says, "ah, they only killed one of our citizens, we will just wait until they kill more before we get off our duffs and defend them."? I give props to Isreal for actually having the balls to go out and take care of business.

Israel has every right to go after the criminals launching rockets at them. They expressly do not have the right to inflict collective punishment on the citizenry of the Gaza strip. To do so is defined under international law as a crime against humanity. Just as the Nazis were punished for their reprisal actions against French civilians in response to attacks from the resistance so should Israel's leaders be held accountable.

 

[Art]

Makes sense to me...

I wonder why then, Israel continued with it's policy of targeted assassinations (a nice euphemism for murder) during the ceasefire and why it continued to deny any commerce to and from the Gaza strip?

Would it have been acceptable for Gazans to assassinate Israel's politicians or do you think this would have been viewed as a breach of the ceasefire agreement.

It seems people have lost sight of the fact Hamas are the democratically elected leaders of the Palestinians, just because Israel labels them all as terrorists does not make it so.

Israel's PR machine is first rate but ultimately actions speak a lot louder than words and it is not very hard to see the discord between what Israel says to assuage international opinion and what it actually does on the ground. That is of course for those who actually want to see.

 

[Art]

No, Richard Falk is not 'the UN'. He was appointed by the misnamed UN Human Rights Council, which includes Arab states Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Bahrain, Jordan, Pakistan, Qatar, Indonesia, and other human rights luminaries such as China, Cuba. The UN HRC has passed 60% of its resolutions on Israel and none on, say, Zimbabwe or Saudia Arabia. Its an abomination.
http://www.abc.net.au/pm/content/2008/s2301643.htm

You should obtain your information from the primary source rather than right wing commentators.

The figures you quote are simply wrong and the UN HCR has produced reports on 191 countries which if you read you will find are indeed critical of both Saudi Arabia and China. Members (who were elected to the council) are subject to suspension if their countries do not work to adhere to human rights legislation.

http://www.ohchr.org/EN/Countries/Pages/HumanRightsintheWorld.aspx

 

[Cyrus]

not indiscriminate? how sure are you on this one?

If you ask me, I wouldn't know either. But let just say, ok, given Israel is a democratic free society with high morals, it is perhaps difficult to imagine Israel would try to kill the innocents just to prove a point or two.. mmm... ok, so then it must be Hamas' fault to hide in civilian areas.

Yes, it is Hamas' fault for hiding in civilian areas. (I think its even illegal to do so)

Unfortunately, I have absolutely no idea whether the Hamas govt is democratic and just. All I really know is that our govt label them as some "terrorist organisations". So, they must be the bad guys by default and everything they do are wrong.

I am not sure whether this is good logic but that will do for the moment when there is a lack of information.

They were democratically elected. "Just" - I doubt it. I don't know why you bring up what our government labeles them as. This point holds no water.

this may sound silly, but lasting peace might actually be possible when there are no Palestinians, Arabs or muslims left in the region. Alternatively, if all Israelis and Jews suddenly disappear, it might also be a solution, don't you think?

I fail to see the point of your last sentence unless your implying some sort of anti-semitic remarks.

Even if I do not question the intention of Israeli self-defence actions, it does LOOK BAD when 300+ ppl are killed. And there is no doubt that ppl will start asking question about genocide et al.

This is a propaganda war more than anything.

Genocide? Again, you're points don't hold any water. To consider it Genocide shows a lack of understanding of the word Genocide.

 

[schroder]

It seems that the point as to whether or not Hamas and/or law enforcement agencies are legally defined as civilians is moot. Just because civilians were killed, doesn't automatically mean that a war crime has been committed:

Yes, of course we must focus on the technicalities! The number of civilian deaths is not important; what really matters here is to determine whether or not a “war crime” was committed. Let’s not let real blood and guts get in the way of our abstract technical analysis!

 

[Cyrus]

Israel has every right to go after the criminals launching rockets at them. They expressly do not have the right to inflict collective punishment on the citizenry of the Gaza strip. To do so is defined under international law as a crime against humanity. Just as the Nazis were punished for their reprisal actions against French civilians in response to attacks from the resistance so should Israel's leaders be held accountable.

Does it escape you that they were not 'inflicting collective punishment on the citizenry'? How many times must you be told this fact by multiple members before it starts to sink in?

You are chosing your words quite poorly to make it fit the point you want to make.

 

[tiny-tim]

It seems people have lost sight of the fact Hamas are the democratically elected leaders of the Palestinians, just because Israel labels them all as terrorists does not make it so.

So you're denying that Hamas are terrorists?

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas" :

Hamas is listed as a terrorist organization by Canada,[19] the European Union,[20][21][22][23] Israel,[24] Japan,[25] and the United States,[26] and is banned in Jordan.

That's what makes it so.

 

[Art]

Does it escape you that they were not 'inflicting collective punishment on the citizenry'? How many times must you be told this fact by multiple members before it starts to sink in?

You are chosing your words quite poorly to make it fit the point you want to make.

Holding 1.5 million people imprisoned behind a metal fence whilst cutting off all their contact with the outside world, severely limiting even fuel and humanitarian aid deliveries into this prison is collective punishment.

Destroying police stations, a university, municipal buildings and even a mosque killing many civilians in retaliation for the actions of a few criminals is collective punishment. Israel actually makes no secret of this. It has publicly stated that it's intention is to pressurise the citizenry to push Hamas out of power.

Meanwhile would you say Israel broke the ceasefire with it's attacks on Nov 5 th when it invaded the Gaza strip accompanied by air strikes which killed 7, injured many more and took dozens of 'prisoners' in deir al-balah? On Nov 11 th Israeli special forces attacked bu Safiya killing a further 6 Palestinians. It was in response to these and other infractions that the militants began firing rockets again and why Hamas figured it was a waste of time extending the ceasefire when it expired a month later.

 

[devil-fire]

I have no idea what you are talking about. The attack was not indiscriminate, so to claim 'lasting peace is to kill enough people in Gaza' is beyond ridiculous.

But more to the point, you're also wrong. If there is no one that hates Israel, then by definition that would bring lasting peace. I am not making the claim to this position, nor has anyone else (except you). But the argument you make against this claim is flat out wrong.

You seem to say it is ridiculous that killing enough people in Gaza will bring lasting peace then also say it would bring lasting peace by definition and that I'm the only one making claim to this position? I feel like I'm being grossly misinterpreted here.

I didn't claim the Israeli attacks were indiscriminate, I claimed they were attacking people who hated Israel. I don't know what you mean by "making claim to this position" but I was stating that I didn't think this (killing enough people who hate Israel) was going to bring lasting peace to the area. I also didn't make any argument against this claim, I only said I didn't think it was going to bring lasting peace to the area.

 

[Art]

So you're denying that Hamas are terrorists?

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas" :That's what makes it so.

Your enemy is always a terrorist, it seems now even when it is a democratically elected one. The Americans who rose up against the British in the war of independence were labelled terrorists. The British commandos were labelled terrorists by Hitler. The French resistance were labelled terrorists by the Germans. Iraqis who fought against the British and Americans were labelled terrorists. The Irish who fought in the war of independence against Britain were labelled terrorists. Even the first president of Israel was labelled a terrorist who lead a terrorist organisation. Notice the pattern?

 

[Cyrus]

Destroying police stations, a university, municipal buildings and even a mosque killing many civilians in retaliation for the actions of a few criminals is collective punishment. Israel actually makes no secret of this. It has publicly stated that it's intention is to pressurise the citizenry to push Hamas out of power.

Could you provide a source of what those said actions were?

Meanwhile would you say Israel broke the ceasefire with it's attacks on Nov 5 th when it invaded the Gaza strip accompanied by air strikes which killed 7, injured many more and took dozens of 'prisoners' in deir al-balah? On Nov 11 th Israeli special forces attacked bu Safiya killing a further 6 Palestinians. It was in response to these and other infractions that the militants began firing rockets again and why Hamas figured it was a waste of time extending the ceasefire when it expired a month later.

No, I'd say Hamas broke the ceasefire based on what you wrote in this post, considering it was in retaliation for the actions 'of a few criminals'.

 

[Cyrus]

Your enemy is always a terrorist, it seems now even when it is a democratically elected one. The Americans who rose up against the British in the war of independence were labelled terrorists. The British commandos were labelled terrorists by Hitler. The French resistance were labelled terrorists by the Germans. Iraqis who fought against the British and Americans were labelled terrorists. Notice the pattern?

Why do you assume a democratically elected government is by default friendly?

 

[Art]

Why do you assume a democratically elected government is by default friendly?

I make no such assumption.

 

[Art]

No, I'd say Hamas broke the ceasefire based on what you wrote in this post, considering it was in retaliation for the actions 'of a few criminals'.

Okay, that exposes your bias so there is really nothing more to say to you on this.

 

[Art]

It seems that the point as to whether or not Hamas and/or law enforcement agencies are legally defined as civilians is moot. Just because civilians were killed, doesn't automatically mean that a war crime has been committed:



Article 51.-Protection of the civilian population

It does if they are civilians and have been deliberately targeted. That's about as cast iron a case of a war crime as you are ever likely to find.

 

[Cyrus]

Okay, that exposes your bias so there is really nothing more to say to you on this.

So, you can't provide me with a source to your claim? ......hmmmmmmmm.

 

[Evo]

It does if they are civilians and have been deliberately targeted. That's about as cast iron a case of a war crime as you are ever likely to find.

But that's not the case according to accounts. You are continuing to make false statements as truth and that is a violation of the guidelines.

 

[tiny-tim]

but Canada, the European Union, Japan, the USA, and Jordan, call Hamas terrorists

Your enemy is always a terrorist, it seems now even when it is a democratically elected one. The Americans who rose up against the British in the war of independence were labelled terrorists. The British commandos were labelled terrorists by Hitler. The French resistance were labelled terrorists by the Germans. Iraqis who fought against the British and Americans were labelled terrorists. The Irish who fought in the war of independence against Britain were labelled terrorists. Even the first president of Israel was labelled a terrorist who lead a terrorist organisation.

Notice the pattern?

yes … the pattern is that one side calls the other side terrorists.

Hamas does not fit this pattern … Canada, the European Union, Japan, the USA, and Jordan, call Hamas terrorists, and Hamas is not their enemy!

And you haven't answered …

are you denying that Hamas are terrorists?​

 

[AhmedEzz]

What are the Palestinians doing to remove Hamas? As long as Hamas is hiding out within the civilian population, they are the ones responsible for what happens.

Dear Evo, you are making a very harsh judgment. Do you think in the circumstances those people live in (which I think you have almost no idea of) they can do anything against a terrorist group like Hamas? it takes a strong and organized force to standup to such groups. In Egypt, in Algeria , in Indonesia those groups are present but are dealt with firmly and exterminated by the government. I don't think "We hate you" rallies would suffice (there have been rallies before and were the protesters were attacked)

By the way, Hamas desperately needed this kind of response from Israel, and Israel handed it on a silver platter. Hamas's popularity grew and Israel gave them a reason to exist once more.

If Israel wants to eradicate Hamas, let it (I hope it does) but leave the people out of this, please.

 

[Evo]

If Israel wants to eradicate Hamas, let it (I hope it does) but leave the people out of this, please.

How would you suggest Israel eradicate Hamas without civilian casualties?

 

[AhmedEzz]

Civilian casualties is something else Evo, it is 100% something else. If "un-intentionally" and after making its preparations to avoid civilian deaths, some not a lot but some civilian casualties happened then Israel should make a statement that innocent blood was shed "accidentally" while targeting Hamas. Sorry Evo but this is not the case

 

[mgb_phys]

Interesting timing.
Over christmas, slow news days following a month of financial crisis packed days when this wouldn't have been noticed. Very media friendly pictures of tanks and warplanes etc.

So definitely sending a message. Is it to force the incoming US administration to stand by their pre-election support? Are there internal elections in Israel coming up? Or is there a domestic political/financial crises to distract people from.

 

[AhmedEzz]

Interesting point of view...

 

[Jimmy Snyder]

Civilian casualties is something else Evo, it is 100% something else. If "un-intentionally" and after making its preparations to avoid civilian deaths, some not a lot but some civilian casualties happened then Israel should make a statement that innocent blood was shed "accidentally" while targeting Hamas. Sorry Evo but this is not the case

Israel is trying to avoid civilian casualties, Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni told reporters Monday, while "Hamas is looking for children to kill." "Hamas is targeting deliberately kindergartens and schools and citizens and civilians because this is according to their values. Our values are completely different. We are trying to target Hamas, which hides among civilians," Livni said.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/28404637/page/2/"
That's a statement. I suppose Hamas could issue a similar statement putting it the other way around. The events of the past few days show that Israel is totally incapable of correctly handling terrorist attacks and should be banned from receiving them any longer.