News Hundreds die in Israel raid on Gaza

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The U.S. government condemned Hamas for breaking a cease-fire and launching rocket attacks on Israel, which responded with significant military strikes resulting in over 200 deaths, primarily among civilians. Israeli officials emphasized the need for a strong response to what they termed terrorist actions by Hamas, while critics pointed out the disproportionate nature of the violence. Discussions highlighted the complexities of the conflict, including accusations of war crimes against Israel and the humanitarian crisis in Gaza. Some participants drew controversial comparisons to historical atrocities, while others argued that Hamas's actions justified Israel's military response. The ongoing cycle of violence raises questions about the prospects for peace and the future of both Israeli and Palestinian communities.
  • #51
Art said:
...
My opinion of Israel's culpability is echoed by the UN. This from Dec 10th http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7774988.stm
No, Richard Falk is not 'the UN'. He was appointed by the misnamed UN Human Rights Council, which includes Arab states Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Bahrain, Jordan, Pakistan, Qatar, Indonesia, and other human rights luminaries such as China, Cuba. The UN HRC has passed 60% of its resolutions on Israel and none on, say, Zimbabwe or Saudia Arabia. Its an abomination.
http://www.abc.net.au/pm/content/2008/s2301643.htm
 
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  • #52
Art said:
There's a slight difference. If the UK or the US declared itself a Christian state for Christians then I imagine members of minority religions would feel rather threatened.

A major stumbling block in the recognition of Israel by the PLO is Israel's insistence that the Palestinians recognise Israel as a Jewish state. This is no mere semantics. By declaring the state Jewish the Zionists look to bolster their position in refusing re-entry to the displaced Palestinians and to allow for forced resettlement of non-Jews i.e. Arabs.

do any of the other middle-eastern nations identify themselves as religious states? say... i dunno, Islamic states? does Israel recognize any of them? because if so, i don't see what the stumbling block here is.
 
  • #53
russ_watters said:
Who said war was supposed to be fair? But hey, I'm a fair guy - I'll trade you those 400 Hamas rockets (from a quote above) for 400 Israeli laser guided bombs. Sound good to you? You should really look up Goodwin's law.

In practice you could suggest Goodwin's Law (after I believe 15 to 20 years now) should start to be questioned or reconsidered...but alas, the more trivialized/desensitized the topic becomes...the more relevant and accurate Goodwin becomes...I think it will stand the test of time.
 
  • #54
Cyrus said:
You can't see why indescriminate attacks on the civilian population would necessitate the need for a show of force to stop said actions? I find that hard to believe.

So the solution to lasting peace to is to kill enough people in Gaza so only the people who don't hate Israel are left? I don't think this will help bring peace to the area.
 
  • #55
devil-fire said:
So the solution to lasting peace to is to kill enough people in Gaza so only the people who don't hate Israel are left? I don't think this will help bring peace to the area.

I have no idea what you are talking about. The attack was not indiscriminate, so to claim 'lasting peace is to kill enough people in Gaza' is beyond ridiculous.

But more to the point, you're also wrong. If there is no one that hates Israel, then by definition that would bring lasting peace. I am not making the claim to this position, nor has anyone else (except you). But the argument you make against this claim is flat out wrong.
 
  • #56
Does everyone here believe that Isreal should be able to defend themselves or not? If someone lobs missiles in my yard I'm hunting them and everyone associated with them down. That's just me but it seems the right way to defend yourself. I don't understand why everyone is kicking on Isreal when a cease fire was violated by Hamas. Hamas was attacking civilians for crying out loud. So what if Hamas didn't accomplish the killing they intended. What kind of government sits back and says, "ah, they only killed one of our citizens, we will just wait until they kill more before we get off our duffs and defend them."? I give props to Isreal for actually having the balls to go out and take care of business.
 
  • #57
drankin said:
Does everyone here believe that Isreal should be able to defend themselves or not? If someone lobs missiles in my yard I'm hunting them and everyone associated with them down. That's just me but it seems the right way to defend yourself. I don't understand why everyone is kicking on Isreal when a cease fire was violated by Hamas. Hamas was attacking civilians for crying out loud. So what if Hamas didn't accomplish the killing they intended. What kind of government sits back and says, "ah, they only killed one of our citizens, we will just wait until they kill more before we get off our duffs and defend them."? I give props to Isreal for actually having the balls to go out and take care of business.


Was it Hamas? One report says it was Islamic Jihad--the Iranians--who are claiming credit. But, if so, they didn't provide them with their best missles. Interesting. And I wonder how the Sunnis fell about being cats-paws for the Shites--given it's true, of course. The flow of funds hasn't stopped Hamas. They love the money and power. But, hey, if it's killing Jew, what's to stop mortal enemies from joining forces?
 
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  • #58
a physics forum should have certain standards …

We're a physics forum, and we should have the same standards of argument and quotation as we use professionally as scientists.

This thread has produced several examples of quotation without reference, or quotation with the wrong reference, or quotation or opinion attributed to the wrong persons or body, or a "headline" purportedly supported by a reference which on examination doesn't support it.

Such misquotation in a scientific paper would result in professional censure … so why do scientists here feel it acceptable when we're discussing Israel?

And now we have doubtful use of data …
devil-fire said:
I find it hard to believe that Israel is firmly pressed into these decisions to attack Gaza when the ratio of people killed is 200:1. I can't imagine how the death of an Israeli citizen calls for an entire campaign of military action by Israel and the deaths of hundreds of people, including the head of police and democratically elected politicians.

It seems to me like Israel would be perfectly happy if Gaza disappeared one morning by Divine intervention and they could get on with their business.

We have plenty of homework questions in the Precalculus Mathematics forum where we help each other to understand how to count probabilities.

Mark Twain popularised Disraeli's (allegedly) quote …
There are lies, damn lies, and statistics!
… meaning that if you choose your statistics misleadingly enough, you can prove anything.

"200:1" is not a lie, of course … it's fairly accurate …

but even an elementary knowledge of the situation shows that it's a measure neither of the risks-and-benefits which Israel is taking into account, nor of those which the international community and international law entitles Israel to take into account …

a country under attack is entitled also to take past and future deaths into account …

and the proportion of civilian and non-civilian deaths …

and of course the ratio would be very different if injuries were also counted.

This is quite apart from the moral issues, of course … for example, as to how far "proportionality" can stretch … and whether retaining "good guy" status requires you always to "play catch-up" … but scientists should not try to discuss proportionality on the basis of missing out much of the relevant data on which the proportion should be calculated.​

In this case, using this "200:1" to prove that Israel wants genocide (Divine or otherwise) is very sloppy precalculus homework. :frown:

Try again! :smile:
 
  • #59
Cyrus said:
I have no idea what you are talking about. The attack was not indiscriminate,

not indiscriminate? how sure are you on this one?

If you ask me, I wouldn't know either. But let just say, ok, given Israel is a democratic free society with high morals, it is perhaps difficult to imagine Israel would try to kill the innocents just to prove a point or two.. mmm... ok, so then it must be Hamas' fault to hide in civilian areas.

Unfortunately, I have absolutely no idea whether the Hamas govt is democratic and just. All I really know is that our govt label them as some "terrorist organisations". So, they must be the bad guys by default and everything they do are wrong.

I am not sure whether this is good logic but that will do for the moment when there is a lack of information.

so to claim 'lasting peace is to kill enough people in Gaza' is beyond ridiculous.

this may sound silly, but lasting peace might actually be possible when there are no Palestinians, Arabs or muslims left in the region. Alternatively, if all Israelis and Jews suddenly disappear, it might also be a solution, don't you think?


Even if I do not question the intention of Israeli self-defence actions, it does LOOK BAD when 300+ ppl are killed. And there is no doubt that ppl will start asking question about genocide et al.

This is a propaganda war more than anything.

:frown:
 
  • #60
Israeli President Shimon Peres said:
It is the first time in the history of Israel that we, the Israelis, cannot understand the motives or the purposes of the ones who are shooting at us. It is the most unreasonable war, done by the most unreasonable warriors.

The story is simple. Israel has left Gaza completely, out of our own free will, at a high cost. In Gaza there is no single Israeli civilian or soldier. They were evacuated from Gaza, our settlements, which called for a very expensive cost. We had to mobilize 45,000 policemen to take out our settlers from there. We spent $2.5 billion. The passages were open. Money was sent to Gaza. We suggested aid in many ways - economically, medically, and otherwise. We were very careful not to make the lives of the civilian people in Gaza difficult. Still I have not heard until now a single person who could explain to us reasonably: why are they firing rockets against Israel? What are the reasons? What is the purpose?

And I must say also that the phenomenon about Israel is the restraint of the army and the unity of the people. The army waited and waited; the Palestinians asked for a ceasefire, and we agreed. They themselves have violated the ceasefire. Again, we didn’t know why, until it came to a point where we were left without a choice but to bring an end to it. The operation was planned carefully and the army was true to its principles: namely, to be precise in its targets and careful not to hit civilian life. There is a problem because many of the bombs were stored in private houses. We have contacted the owners of the houses, the people that dwell there, and told them leave it. You can’t live with bombs. We have to bring an end to the source of the bombs.

Israel doesn’t have any ambition in Gaza. We left out of our free choice. We have never gone back to the idea of returning to Gaza. It’s over. But we cannot permit that Gaza will become a permanent base of threatening and even killing children and innocent people in Israel for God knows why. I feel that in our hearts, we don’t have any hatred for the Gazan people. Their suffering doesn’t carry any joy in our hearts. On the contrary, we feel that the better they will have it, better neighbors we shall have. Now that Hamas is turning to the Arab world for help, the truth is that the Arab world has to turn to Hamas for the help of Hamas. If Hamas will stop it, there is no need for any help. Everything can come again to normalcy. Passages: open; economic life: free; no Israeli intervention; no Israeli participation in any of the turnarounds in Gaza.

As a nation, we feel united. As a nation, there is wholehearted support for the army, the way they handled it, their restraint, their discrimination, and their responsibility. The great winner can be reason, and reason will lead to peace. We are very serious, in a serious mood. Many of our children are still in the shelters, and we would like them, like the children of Gaza, to breathe fresh air again. This is the story, and whoever asks us to stop shooting - they have to change the address. Let them turn to Hamas and ask them to stop shooting, and there won’t be shooting. Thank you very much.

Makes sense to me...
 
  • #61
I am amazed at all these arm-chair military analyses! How many of you have ever been in a war, or even know anybody who was in a war? Where do you get all this expertise from? And, Tiny-Tim, applying your mathematical probability and odds, to the suffering and loss of life, just makes me puke. I am a disabled Vietnam veteran, and I can tell you this much, ALL wars are stupid. I also have experience with Israel, although I am not a Jew, I have served with the Israel MOD and have come to both love and hate the country. This entire problem was created by the Western powers that put Israel in business, without any regard for the Palestinians. I do not trust the Israelis, because they are carrying the psychological scars of the Holocaust, and cannot be trusted to think rationally. Even as they claim to want to provide a Palestinian homeland, they continue to build more settlements near Gaza and the West Bank. The Palestinians have nothing to lose by lobby rockets into Israel, they have nothing, no homeland, and so what do they have to lose? I do not pretend to understand this situation completely, but I do understand that there is NO fundamental difference between the Jews and the Palestinians; they are one and the same. It is Britain and the USA who mainly created this problem, and is those same powers that need to step in and solve it. Give the Palestinians some dignity, give them a homeland, and reign in the dogs of war. Once and for all, lest this conflict continue for another thousand years.
 
  • #62
Alright so, hamas is wrong - all the kind of wrong you can imagine-. It is using the lives of innocent (yes, innocent) people to achieve its goals. No matter how many Palestinian civilian is dead,they don't care. I (and many many others) know they are not Palestinian. They receive foreign funds and are there because of a foreign agenda. They have even clashed with Egyptian border forces, killing an officer today and wounding 2 soldiers. They deprived the Muslim pilgrims from going to the SA. They broke their truce with Israel before Israel does anything (yes they did). They tried to break into Egypt and finally turned the lives of people in Gaza to a living hell. If Israel were to hit on hamas, I wouldn't mind.

However, this is not the case, Israel is having a demonstration through the use of overwhelmingly brute force (under the excuse of picking on Hamas to defend itself) against helpless CIVILIANS. They might have hit all the hamas offices in Gaza but the amount of destruction that took place and the number of civilian casualties (including women and children) is inexcusable. Yes hit hamas but only hamas. And also please refrain from making the generalisation that Gazans are all part of hamas or that hamas is hiding within the population.

Even if hamas combatants are hiding within the population this does not make legit targets out of them.
 
  • #63
AhmedEzz said:
Even if hamas combatants are hiding within the population this does not make legit targets out of them.
What are the Palestinians doing to remove Hamas? As long as Hamas is hiding out within the civilian population, they are the ones responsible for what happens.
 
  • #64
I would also like to add that the claim of self-defense is useless because there is alternative ways of defending oneself without exterminating a population and destroying infrastructure. Did it ever succeed , I mean the military campaigns and so, did Israeli massacres ever succeed ? I don't think so. Does the American people feel safer after destroying Iraq? I seriously doubt it.
 
  • #65


It seems that the point as to whether or not Hamas and/or law enforcement agencies are legally defined as civilians is moot. Just because civilians were killed, doesn't automatically mean that a war crime has been committed:

Civilians shall enjoy the protection afforded by this Section, unless and for such time as they take a direct part in hostilities.

Article 51.-Protection of the civilian population
 
  • #66
Evo said:
What are the Palestinians doing to remove Hamas? As long as Hamas is hiding out within the civilian population, they are the ones responsible for what happens.
Where are you suggesting the Palestinians should build their police stations, municipal buildings and universities if not in urban areas :rolleyes:
 
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  • #67
drankin said:
Does everyone here believe that Isreal should be able to defend themselves or not? If someone lobs missiles in my yard I'm hunting them and everyone associated with them down. That's just me but it seems the right way to defend yourself. I don't understand why everyone is kicking on Isreal when a cease fire was violated by Hamas. Hamas was attacking civilians for crying out loud. So what if Hamas didn't accomplish the killing they intended. What kind of government sits back and says, "ah, they only killed one of our citizens, we will just wait until they kill more before we get off our duffs and defend them."? I give props to Isreal for actually having the balls to go out and take care of business.
Israel has every right to go after the criminals launching rockets at them. They expressly do not have the right to inflict collective punishment on the citizenry of the Gaza strip. To do so is defined under international law as a crime against humanity. Just as the Nazis were punished for their reprisal actions against French civilians in response to attacks from the resistance so should Israel's leaders be held accountable.
 
  • #68
tchitt said:
Makes sense to me...
I wonder why then, Israel continued with it's policy of targeted assassinations (a nice euphemism for murder) during the ceasefire and why it continued to deny any commerce to and from the Gaza strip?

Would it have been acceptable for Gazans to assassinate Israel's politicians or do you think this would have been viewed as a breach of the ceasefire agreement.

It seems people have lost sight of the fact Hamas are the democratically elected leaders of the Palestinians, just because Israel labels them all as terrorists does not make it so.

Israel's PR machine is first rate but ultimately actions speak a lot louder than words and it is not very hard to see the discord between what Israel says to assuage international opinion and what it actually does on the ground. That is of course for those who actually want to see.
 
  • #69
mheslep said:
No, Richard Falk is not 'the UN'. He was appointed by the misnamed UN Human Rights Council, which includes Arab states Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Bahrain, Jordan, Pakistan, Qatar, Indonesia, and other human rights luminaries such as China, Cuba. The UN HRC has passed 60% of its resolutions on Israel and none on, say, Zimbabwe or Saudia Arabia. Its an abomination.
http://www.abc.net.au/pm/content/2008/s2301643.htm
You should obtain your information from the primary source rather than right wing commentators.

The figures you quote are simply wrong and the UN HCR has produced reports on 191 countries which if you read you will find are indeed critical of both Saudi Arabia and China. Members (who were elected to the council) are subject to suspension if their countries do not work to adhere to human rights legislation.

http://www.ohchr.org/EN/Countries/Pages/HumanRightsintheWorld.aspx
 
  • #70
mjsd said:
not indiscriminate? how sure are you on this one?

If you ask me, I wouldn't know either. But let just say, ok, given Israel is a democratic free society with high morals, it is perhaps difficult to imagine Israel would try to kill the innocents just to prove a point or two.. mmm... ok, so then it must be Hamas' fault to hide in civilian areas.

Yes, it is Hamas' fault for hiding in civilian areas. (I think its even illegal to do so)

Unfortunately, I have absolutely no idea whether the Hamas govt is democratic and just. All I really know is that our govt label them as some "terrorist organisations". So, they must be the bad guys by default and everything they do are wrong.

I am not sure whether this is good logic but that will do for the moment when there is a lack of information.

They were democratically elected. "Just" - I doubt it. I don't know why you bring up what our government labeles them as. This point holds no water.


this may sound silly, but lasting peace might actually be possible when there are no Palestinians, Arabs or muslims left in the region. Alternatively, if all Israelis and Jews suddenly disappear, it might also be a solution, don't you think?

I fail to see the point of your last sentence unless your implying some sort of anti-semitic remarks.

Even if I do not question the intention of Israeli self-defence actions, it does LOOK BAD when 300+ ppl are killed. And there is no doubt that ppl will start asking question about genocide et al.

This is a propaganda war more than anything.

:frown:

Genocide? Again, you're points don't hold any water. To consider it Genocide shows a lack of understanding of the word Genocide.
 
  • #71


phyzmatix said:
It seems that the point as to whether or not Hamas and/or law enforcement agencies are legally defined as civilians is moot. Just because civilians were killed, doesn't automatically mean that a war crime has been committed:

Yes, of course we must focus on the technicalities! The number of civilian deaths is not important; what really matters here is to determine whether or not a “war crime” was committed. Let’s not let real blood and guts get in the way of our abstract technical analysis!
 
  • #72
Art said:
Israel has every right to go after the criminals launching rockets at them. They expressly do not have the right to inflict collective punishment on the citizenry of the Gaza strip. To do so is defined under international law as a crime against humanity. Just as the Nazis were punished for their reprisal actions against French civilians in response to attacks from the resistance so should Israel's leaders be held accountable.

Does it escape you that they were not 'inflicting collective punishment on the citizenry'? How many times must you be told this fact by multiple members before it starts to sink in?

You are chosing your words quite poorly to make it fit the point you want to make.
 
  • #73
Art said:
It seems people have lost sight of the fact Hamas are the democratically elected leaders of the Palestinians, just because Israel labels them all as terrorists does not make it so.

So you're denying that Hamas are terrorists?

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas" :
Hamas is listed as a terrorist organization by Canada,[19] the European Union,[20][21][22][23] Israel,[24] Japan,[25] and the United States,[26] and is banned in Jordan.

That's what makes it so.
 
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  • #74
Cyrus said:
Does it escape you that they were not 'inflicting collective punishment on the citizenry'? How many times must you be told this fact by multiple members before it starts to sink in?

You are chosing your words quite poorly to make it fit the point you want to make.
Holding 1.5 million people imprisoned behind a metal fence whilst cutting off all their contact with the outside world, severely limiting even fuel and humanitarian aid deliveries into this prison is collective punishment.

Destroying police stations, a university, municipal buildings and even a mosque killing many civilians in retaliation for the actions of a few criminals is collective punishment. Israel actually makes no secret of this. It has publicly stated that it's intention is to pressurise the citizenry to push Hamas out of power.

Meanwhile would you say Israel broke the ceasefire with it's attacks on Nov 5 th when it invaded the Gaza strip accompanied by air strikes which killed 7, injured many more and took dozens of 'prisoners' in deir al-balah? On Nov 11 th Israeli special forces attacked bu Safiya killing a further 6 Palestinians. It was in response to these and other infractions that the militants began firing rockets again and why Hamas figured it was a waste of time extending the ceasefire when it expired a month later.
 
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  • #75
Cyrus said:
I have no idea what you are talking about. The attack was not indiscriminate, so to claim 'lasting peace is to kill enough people in Gaza' is beyond ridiculous.

But more to the point, you're also wrong. If there is no one that hates Israel, then by definition that would bring lasting peace. I am not making the claim to this position, nor has anyone else (except you). But the argument you make against this claim is flat out wrong.

You seem to say it is ridiculous that killing enough people in Gaza will bring lasting peace then also say it would bring lasting peace by definition and that I'm the only one making claim to this position? I feel like I'm being grossly misinterpreted here.

I didn't claim the Israeli attacks were indiscriminate, I claimed they were attacking people who hated Israel. I don't know what you mean by "making claim to this position" but I was stating that I didn't think this (killing enough people who hate Israel) was going to bring lasting peace to the area. I also didn't make any argument against this claim, I only said I didn't think it was going to bring lasting peace to the area.
 
  • #76
tiny-tim said:
So you're denying that Hamas are terrorists?

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas" :That's what makes it so.
Your enemy is always a terrorist, it seems now even when it is a democratically elected one. The Americans who rose up against the British in the war of independence were labelled terrorists. The British commandos were labelled terrorists by Hitler. The French resistance were labelled terrorists by the Germans. Iraqis who fought against the British and Americans were labelled terrorists. The Irish who fought in the war of independence against Britain were labelled terrorists. Even the first president of Israel was labelled a terrorist who lead a terrorist organisation. Notice the pattern? :rolleyes:
 
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  • #77
Art said:
Destroying police stations, a university, municipal buildings and even a mosque killing many civilians in retaliation for the actions of a few criminals is collective punishment. Israel actually makes no secret of this. It has publicly stated that it's intention is to pressurise the citizenry to push Hamas out of power.

Could you provide a source of what those said actions were?

Meanwhile would you say Israel broke the ceasefire with it's attacks on Nov 5 th when it invaded the Gaza strip accompanied by air strikes which killed 7, injured many more and took dozens of 'prisoners' in deir al-balah? On Nov 11 th Israeli special forces attacked bu Safiya killing a further 6 Palestinians. It was in response to these and other infractions that the militants began firing rockets again and why Hamas figured it was a waste of time extending the ceasefire when it expired a month later.

No, I'd say Hamas broke the ceasefire based on what you wrote in this post, considering it was in retaliation for the actions 'of a few criminals'.
 
  • #78
Art said:
Your enemy is always a terrorist, it seems now even when it is a democratically elected one. The Americans who rose up against the British in the war of independence were labelled terrorists. The British commandos were labelled terrorists by Hitler. The French resistance were labelled terrorists by the Germans. Iraqis who fought against the British and Americans were labelled terrorists. Notice the pattern? :rolleyes:

Why do you assume a democratically elected government is by default friendly?
 
  • #79
Cyrus said:
Why do you assume a democratically elected government is by default friendly?
I make no such assumption.
 
  • #80
Cyrus said:
No, I'd say Hamas broke the ceasefire based on what you wrote in this post, considering it was in retaliation for the actions 'of a few criminals'.
Okay, that exposes your bias so there is really nothing more to say to you on this.
 
  • #81


phyzmatix said:
It seems that the point as to whether or not Hamas and/or law enforcement agencies are legally defined as civilians is moot. Just because civilians were killed, doesn't automatically mean that a war crime has been committed:



Article 51.-Protection of the civilian population
It does if they are civilians and have been deliberately targeted. That's about as cast iron a case of a war crime as you are ever likely to find.
 
  • #82
Art said:
Okay, that exposes your bias so there is really nothing more to say to you on this.

So, you can't provide me with a source to your claim? ......hmmmmmmmm.
 
  • #83


Art said:
It does if they are civilians and have been deliberately targeted. That's about as cast iron a case of a war crime as you are ever likely to find.
But that's not the case according to accounts. You are continuing to make false statements as truth and that is a violation of the guidelines.
 
  • #84
but Canada, the European Union, Japan, the USA, and Jordan, call Hamas terrorists

Art said:
Your enemy is always a terrorist, it seems now even when it is a democratically elected one. The Americans who rose up against the British in the war of independence were labelled terrorists. The British commandos were labelled terrorists by Hitler. The French resistance were labelled terrorists by the Germans. Iraqis who fought against the British and Americans were labelled terrorists. The Irish who fought in the war of independence against Britain were labelled terrorists. Even the first president of Israel was labelled a terrorist who lead a terrorist organisation.

Notice the pattern? :rolleyes:

yes … the pattern is that one side calls the other side terrorists.

Hamas does not fit this pattern … Canada, the European Union, Japan, the USA, and Jordan, call Hamas terrorists, and Hamas is not their enemy!
And you haven't answered :frown:

are you denying that Hamas are terrorists?​
 
  • #85
Evo said:
What are the Palestinians doing to remove Hamas? As long as Hamas is hiding out within the civilian population, they are the ones responsible for what happens.

Dear Evo, you are making a very harsh judgment. Do you think in the circumstances those people live in (which I think you have almost no idea of) they can do anything against a terrorist group like Hamas? it takes a strong and organized force to standup to such groups. In Egypt, in Algeria , in Indonesia those groups are present but are dealt with firmly and exterminated by the government. I don't think "We hate you" rallies would suffice (there have been rallies before and were the protesters were attacked)

By the way, Hamas desperately needed this kind of response from Israel, and Israel handed it on a silver platter. Hamas's popularity grew and Israel gave them a reason to exist once more.

If Israel wants to eradicate Hamas, let it (I hope it does) but leave the people out of this, please.
 
  • #86
AhmedEzz said:
If Israel wants to eradicate Hamas, let it (I hope it does) but leave the people out of this, please.
How would you suggest Israel eradicate Hamas without civilian casualties?
 
  • #87
Civilian casualties is something else Evo, it is 100% something else. If "un-intentionally" and after making its preparations to avoid civilian deaths, some not a lot but some civilian casualties happened then Israel should make a statement that innocent blood was shed "accidentally" while targeting Hamas. Sorry Evo but this is not the case
 
  • #88
Interesting timing.
Over christmas, slow news days following a month of financial crisis packed days when this wouldn't have been noticed. Very media friendly pictures of tanks and warplanes etc.

So definitely sending a message. Is it to force the incoming US administration to stand by their pre-election support? Are there internal elections in Israel coming up? Or is there a domestic political/financial crises to distract people from.
 
  • #89
Interesting point of view...
 
  • #90
AhmedEzz said:
Civilian casualties is something else Evo, it is 100% something else. If "un-intentionally" and after making its preparations to avoid civilian deaths, some not a lot but some civilian casualties happened then Israel should make a statement that innocent blood was shed "accidentally" while targeting Hamas. Sorry Evo but this is not the case
MSNBC said:
Israel is trying to avoid civilian casualties, Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni told reporters Monday, while "Hamas is looking for children to kill." "Hamas is targeting deliberately kindergartens and schools and citizens and civilians because this is according to their values. Our values are completely different. We are trying to target Hamas, which hides among civilians," Livni said.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/28404637/page/2/"
That's a statement. I suppose Hamas could issue a similar statement putting it the other way around. The events of the past few days show that Israel is totally incapable of correctly handling terrorist attacks and should be banned from receiving them any longer.
 
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  • #91
Civilian casualties is something else Evo, it is 100% something else. If "un-intentionally" and after making its preparations to avoid civilian deaths, some not a lot but some civilian casualties happened then Israel should make a statement that innocent blood was shed "accidentally" while targeting Hamas. Sorry Evo but this is not the case

I think they took care of the statement part :rolleyes:
 
  • #92
AhmedEzz said:
I think they took care of the statement part :rolleyes:
You want Israel to apologize each time a civilian is accidently hit?
 
  • #93
how did you infer that from my response?

I was clear, they took care of the "issuing a statement part" while neglecting the "un-intentionally" and "after making its preparations to avoid civilian deaths" and " some not a lot but some civilian casualties" part which I strongly and firmly stress
 
  • #94
Evo said:
You want Israel to apologize each time a civilian is accidently hit?

Hamas is certainly NOT apologizing when they kill Isreali civilians. It's a bit of a double standard isn't it?

Once upon a time, an entire civilian cities would be destroyed. The US has done it a few times. Ending a cease-fire ensures a continuation of deaths among all involved.

Why did Hamas not continue the cease-fire? This wouldn't be happening.
 
  • #95
AhmedEzz said:
how did you infer that from my response?

I was clear, they took care of the "issuing a statement part" while neglecting the "un-intentionally" and "after making its preparations to avoid civilian deaths" and " some not a lot but some civilian casualties" part which I strongly and firmly stress
You also said
AhmedEzz said:
Israel should make a statement that innocent blood was shed "accidentally" while targeting Hamas.
 
  • #96
You also said
Originally Posted by AhmedEzz View Post

Israel should make a statement that innocent blood was shed "accidentally" while targeting Hamas.

Where I then made fun of that by saying that they did "Israel should make a statement" rather than firstly doing the the "un-intentionally" and "making its preparations to avoid civilian deaths" and "ome not a lot but some civilian casualties" part...!
Hamas is certainly NOT apologizing when they kill Isreali civilians. It's a bit of a double standard isn't it?
My friend Hamas is a terrorist organization with its own foreign agenda, it has naught to do with Palestinian resistance.

Why did Hamas not continue the cease-fire? This wouldn't be happening.
Hamas provoked Israel and wanted that response. Israel is NOT punishing Hamas here, the punished here is the civilians.
 
  • #97
AhmedEzz said:
Hamas provoked Israel and wanted that response. Israel is NOT punishing Hamas here, the punished here is the civilians.

Ok, granted, if Hamas is hiding out among the civilian population, civilians are going to be affected. But Isreal is intentionally not occupying Gaza (if I'm following developements correctly), they are only doing remote strikes. The civilians that are being "punished" are in the vacinity of the Hamas, intentionaly among and/or supporting Hamas. If I were in close vacinity of terrorists/thugs/gangs/people bent on killiing, I would move. Especially if military action was going to begin.

And Isreal is punishing Hamas, I've seen a few recent pictures of Hamas militants killed by the strikes.
 
  • #98
Cyrus said:
Yes, it is
I fail to see the point of your last sentence unless your implying some sort of anti-semitic remarks.

Both sides are semites.
 
  • #100
drankin said:
And Isreal is punishing Hamas, I've seen a few recent pictures of Hamas militants killed by the strikes.

For the sake of argument let's not get this down to the "I saw a few pictures of dead combatants" level. I saw a few pictures of dead children, students, women, old men and destruction of all kind by the way.

The civilians that are being "punished" are in the vacinity of the Hamas, intentionaly among and/or supporting Hamas. If I were in close vacinity of terrorists/thugs/gangs/people bent on killiing, I would move.

This is not a normal circumstance where you can easily "move" to another neighborhood away from the "bad thugs" of Hamas. Hamas took control of all Gaza. There's not getting away from them.
 
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