I don't truly know if I like physics

[PseudoQuantum]

I am currently a senior in high school and I am unsure if I actually like physics. I never took a "real" physics class, but rather a physical science course that had a physics section that I absolutely loved so much.

Are there any books that could help me figure out this dilemma?

I would also like to add that I haven't been a very good student until recently since that is when I started to apply myself more. I didn't realize the importance of math until last year when I took that physical science course so I have made some pretty mediocre/bad grades in math until recently. I made a B in Algebra I, a C in Algebra II, a C in Geometry, and an A in rather simple Business Math.

The most recent course I've taken in College Algebra which would be about the equivalent to a good bit of the Algebra from Precalc, and I just finished the course last semester with an A and my final average in the class was a 97.06%.

I am registered to take College Trigonometry next semester so I will be able to take Calculus I my freshman year of college.

Also because of my lack of effort, I will have to attend a CC for my first two years of college so that may have an impact on my further education.

Final question: Would physics even be worth it for me?

 

[symbolipoint]

Yes, worth it if you find it to be interesting and willing to put in the work to learn. The starting at a C.C. is not a problem. You seem to be progressing well with Mathematics. You might be ready to start or try a real Physics course during or just after your Calculus 1.

 

[Vanadium 50]

Why do you need to know now? Why not take a class in it when you get to college?

 

[PseudoQuantum]

Why do you need to know now? Why not take a class in it when you get to college?

The college I will be attending doesn't offer concurrent enrollment with Calculus I and Calc based physics I and the class isn't offered in the spring so I will have to wait until my second year there to take the class so I would have some time to read books that relate to physics until then.

 

[symbolipoint]

Fine! Learn at least Calculus 1 first, and as soon as the chance, enroll in Physics 1 - Mechanics for the Science & Engineering students and how it goes may help you understand if you like it and how good you may be. Just understand that both it will be a hard course and you will learn much. Not impossible to learn, just it is hard and requires an effort.

 

[JRMichler]

Getting mediocre grades because you failed to apply yourself is one thing. Getting mediocre grades because you were unable to do better is something else entirely. A transcript that shows a sudden, and sustained, improvement in grades is self explanatory.

The first year college courses for almost any technical field are all the same: calculus, physics, chemistry. You can change to almost any other technical field after your first year without losing course credits. So dive in, get started, and have fun. You can always change your mind later.

 

[Dr. Courtney]

My son got his passion for physics and decided on a physics major primarily though a Coursera astrophysics course and watching the online videos for the Feynman Lectures in Physics and other videos from Richard Feynman.

http://www.richard-feynman.net/videos.htm

https://online.duke.edu/course/introduction-astronomy/

The Coursera course he took is now a free course at Duke (see link).

If those Feynman videos can't help you find your "on button" for physics, you might just be cut out for something else.

 

[Vanadium 50]

I will have to wait until my second year there to take the class

I don't see how it changes anything. You don't need to know if you like it before you've taken a class in it.

 

[Dr. Courtney]

I don't see how it changes anything. You don't need to know if you like it before you've taken a class in it.

One also doesn't need to take a class in physics before one knows if they like it.

I knew I loved physics from elementary school - checking out books on light and relativity from the school library and eagerly reading the Funk and Wagnalls science yearbooks as soon as they arrived every year. I recall one year taking the new science yearbook with me to the dentist's office and reading the article on quarks in the waiting room. This approach continued through junior high school, and my physical science class in 9th grade just whetted my appetite for more.

My first physics class (12th grade) was actually a considerable disappointment, as I found AP Biology that I was in concurrently to be much more exciting. But I knew that was more about a suboptimal teacher and a curriculum that focused more on preliminaries than on the really good stuff. It is somewhat unfortunate that most approaches spend so much dry time focusing on the preliminaries that there is a lot of dry plowing up the turf in most approaches to physics before they get to the part that I'd been longing for and dreaming about for so many years. A less patient soul would have given up.

 

[Vanadium 50]

One also doesn't need to take a class in physics before one knows if they like it.

The OP isn't sure. Maybe you were, but he isn't.

 

[Dr. Courtney]

The OP isn't sure. Maybe you were, but he isn't.

Right. But my point is that there are a lot of things one can do to discover one's love for physics (or not) other than waiting for the classes to roll around in one's school. The online Duke Astrophysics class is free and offered on a rolling schedule. The Feynman videos are also free and likely to stir one's passion if there is passion there to be stirred for physics.

 

[symbolipoint]

The OP isn't sure. Maybe you were, but he isn't.

Right. But my point is that there are a lot of things one can do to discover one's love for physics (or not) other than waiting for the classes to roll around in one's school. The online Duke Astrophysics class is free and offered on a rolling schedule. The Feynman videos are also free and likely to stir one's passion if there is passion there to be stirred for physics.

The reality of studying physics can be tougher on a student than the pre-conceived interest would suggest to the student.

 

[Dr. Courtney]

The reality of studying physics can be tougher on a student than the pre-conceived interest would suggest to the student.

I guess I tend to take most questions literally, so I was addressing this one more as "How do I figure out if I like Physics?" which is a bit more focused than "Should I study Physics?"

Liking Physics is a necessary but not sufficient condition for studying Physics. The other conditions need to be considered also, but they are something of a waste of time and effort until and unless someone likes it. Think if it this way: liking a girl is a necessary but not sufficient condition to marrying her. If you don't even like her, why bother considering the other issues necessary to determine the wisdom of marrying her? Figure out if you like her first.

 

[symbolipoint]

I guess I tend to take most questions literally, so I was addressing this one more as "How do I figure out if I like Physics?" which is a bit more focused than "Should I study Physics?"

Liking Physics is a necessary but not sufficient condition for studying Physics. The other conditions need to be considered also, but they are something of a waste of time and effort until and unless someone likes it. Think if it this way: liking a girl is a necessary but not sufficient condition to marrying her. If you don't even like her, why bother considering the other issues necessary to determine the wisdom of marrying her? Figure out if you like her first.

Very very interesting comparison. Reading what you say there reminds me of Meatloaf's "Paradise by the Dashboard Lights".

Of course, the student does not need to "know right now", but he as a few months to decide. Meanwhile, he must be sure he has built up the necessary Math knowledge, and then try the first real Physics course and then he could possibly think beyond what may come in the next real Physics course (the lower division E & M course).

 

[PseudoQuantum]

My son got his passion for physics and decided on a physics major primarily though a Coursera astrophysics course and watching the online videos for the Feynman Lectures in Physics and other videos from Richard Feynman.

http://www.richard-feynman.net/videos.htm

https://online.duke.edu/course/introduction-astronomy/

The Coursera course he took is now a free course at Duke (see link).

If those Feynman videos can't help you find your "on button" for physics, you might just be cut out for something else.

Thank you for those resources. I will check out the astronomy course once it is available again. I'm pretty sure I will like that course because I have loved astronomy since I was a little boy and it is still my all time favorite topic! Richard Feynman is extremely brilliant and is a very interesting man to listen to!

 

[PseudoQuantum]

Fine! Learn at least Calculus 1 first, and as soon as the chance, enroll in Physics 1 - Mechanics for the Science & Engineering students and how it goes may help you understand if you like it and how good you may be. Just understand that both it will be a hard course and you will learn much. Not impossible to learn, just it is hard and requires an effort.

Do you think it would be worth it to take Calculus I over the summer so I can start Calculus-based physics in the Fall? Or is Calculus I too much for such a short term? I would be taking it along with the first college level English course, ENG 101, if I choose to take it over the summer.

 

[symbolipoint]

Do you think it would be worth it to take Calculus I over the summer so I can start Calculus-based physics in the Fall? Or is Calculus I too much for such a short term? I would be taking it along with the first college level English course, ENG 101, if I choose to take it over the summer.

Probably a bad idea to enroll in such a course for a summer session. On the other hand, you SHOULD try to study Calculus 1 on your own, FOR THE WHOLE SUMMER season's length, like for 16 to 18 weeks, so that you will know some of it at least somewhat, before enrolling for study in the Fall term.

 

[PseudoQuantum]

Probably a bad idea to enroll in such a course for a summer session. On the other hand, you SHOULD try to study Calculus 1 on your own, FOR THE WHOLE SUMMER season's length, like for 16 to 18 weeks, so that you will know some of it at least somewhat, before enrolling for study in the Fall term.

I will keep that in mind and try to get a hold of the Calc. textbook my college uses for both Calc. 1 and 2 after I am finished with College Trig.

 

[Dr. Courtney]

Do you think it would be worth it to take Calculus I over the summer so I can start Calculus-based physics in the Fall? Or is Calculus I too much for such a short term? I would be taking it along with the first college level English course, ENG 101, if I choose to take it over the summer.

An accredited Calc 1 course in the summer is like taking a drink of water from a firehose. A number of students I've mentored take Coursera Calculus One (unaccredited) as a lower pressure test run before taking the accredited college version of Calculus 1. It has worked well for them.

 

[PseudoQuantum]

An accredited Calc 1 course in the summer is like taking a drink of water from a firehose. A number of students I've mentored take Coursera Calculus One (unaccredited) as a lower pressure test run before taking the accredited college version of Calculus 1. It has worked well for them.

You and symbolipoint have the same thing in mind. It would be better to do that so that I will have a bit of a base before starting Calc. I in the Fall, and it would also give me time to make sure my Algebra skills are as sharp as possible before taking on Calc. I.

 

[symbolipoint]

You and symbolipoint have the same thing in mind. It would be better to do that so that I will have a bit of a base before starting Calc. I in the Fall, and it would also give me time to make sure my Algebra skills are as sharp as possible before taking on Calc. I.

That is a good plan and most assured for what will happen. One does improve in algebra skills when studying Calculus 1, even if done outside of class enrollment.

 

[symbolipoint]

One thing to watch is to avoid getting overloaded about the epsilon-delta limit proofs. This stuff is important to know and to try to understand, but one must not let this become an obstruction to progressing on to other Calculus 1 concepts and skills.

 

[Dr. Courtney]

You and symbolipoint have the same thing in mind. It would be better to do that so that I will have a bit of a base before starting Calc. I in the Fall, and it would also give me time to make sure my Algebra skills are as sharp as possible before taking on Calc. I.

The Gold Standard for algebra preparedness is completing 90% of the pre-calculus pie in ALEKS. Lots of Calculus courses (including Coursera Calculus One) are not designed for and do not do a very good job reviewing or strengthening algebra and other pre-calc skills. ALEKS will get you where you need to be.

 

[symbolipoint]

The Gold Standard for algebra preparedness is completing 90% of the pre-calculus pie in ALEKS. Lots of Calculus courses (including Coursera Calculus One) are not designed for and do not do a very good job reviewing or strengthening algebra and other pre-calc skills. ALEKS will get you where you need to be.

Dr. Courtney,
Would you explain all of that in terms for someone who has no knowledge of ALEKS? There was no such ALEKS for us many years ago; there was just Pre-Calculus or College Algebra And Trigonometry as the prerequisites for Calculus 1. A student could start his Math at any level, and work upward into the end of College Algebra And Trigonometry, and then enroll in Calculus 1. That was all we knew; that was all there was. Along with that, the typical knowledge on the street was that if someone knew Intermediate Algebra and had a course on Trigonometry, that would be enough to be able to start studying Calculus 1 as registered for the class.

 

[Dr. Courtney]

Dr. Courtney,
Would you explain all of that in terms for someone who has no knowledge of ALEKS? There was no such ALEKS for us many years ago; there was just Pre-Calculus or College Algebra And Trigonometry as the prerequisites for Calculus 1. A student could start his Math at any level, and work upward into the end of College Algebra And Trigonometry, and then enroll in Calculus 1. That was all we knew; that was all there was. Along with that, the typical knowledge on the street was that if someone knew Intermediate Algebra and had a course on Trigonometry, that would be enough to be able to start studying Calculus 1 as registered for the class.

https://www.aleks.com/highered/math...e6_pcalculus#ghighedmathcollegiate6_pcalculus

ALEKS (see link) pre-calc is just an online system for assessing and building math skills up to and including pre-calc. Unlike human teachers these days, who often gift grades, so that a grade in high school math courses is no assurance of preparedness, ALEKS pre-calc provides a rigorous assessment of abilities. Completing 90% of the pie in any given subject indicates pretty good mastery. 90% of the pie in pre-calc indicates that the necessary material is honestly mastered even if one has been gifted grades along the way.

 

[symbolipoint]

https://www.aleks.com/highered/math...e6_pcalculus#ghighedmathcollegiate6_pcalculus

ALEKS (see link) pre-calc is just an online system for assessing and building math skills up to and including pre-calc. Unlike human teachers these days, who often gift grades, so that a grade in high school math courses is no assurance of preparedness, ALEKS pre-calc provides a rigorous assessment of abilities. Completing 90% of the pie in any given subject indicates pretty good mastery. 90% of the pie in pre-calc indicates that the necessary material is honestly mastered even if one has been gifted grades along the way.

That seems like an excellent arrangement. Yet to have such a course in colleges and universities as College Algebra And Trigonometry; or the thing called Pre-Calculus, is still very important, too. Not everyone had "Pre-Calculus" in high school, and even those that supposedly did, could still choose a path into it at college. I myself still trust actual coursework instead of relying on a placement or qualification formal test. If someone having had PreCalculus were to do that ALEKS, show low results, and then review Pre-Calculus on his own, he could just as well do the whole Pre-Calculus course as enrolled student, but this is his to decide about.

 

[PseudoQuantum]

One thing to watch is to avoid getting overloaded about the epsilon-delta limit proofs. This stuff is important to know and to try to understand, but one must not let this become an obstruction to progressing on to other Calculus 1 concepts and skills.

Alright, thank you for the heads up. I will keep that in mind for if/when I reach that far in my self-study of Calculus over summer break.

 

[PseudoQuantum]

The Gold Standard for algebra preparedness is completing 90% of the pre-calculus pie in ALEKS. Lots of Calculus courses (including Coursera Calculus One) are not designed for and do not do a very good job reviewing or strengthening algebra and other pre-calc skills. ALEKS will get you where you need to be.

Thank you for that resource, I haven't heard of it until I read your post. It seems like an excellent way to make sure I am well prepared for Calculus I in the Fall.

 

[PseudoQuantum]

https://www.aleks.com/highered/math...e6_pcalculus#ghighedmathcollegiate6_pcalculus

ALEKS (see link) pre-calc is just an online system for assessing and building math skills up to and including pre-calc. Unlike human teachers these days, who often gift grades, so that a grade in high school math courses is no assurance of preparedness, ALEKS pre-calc provides a rigorous assessment of abilities. Completing 90% of the pie in any given subject indicates pretty good mastery. 90% of the pie in pre-calc indicates that the necessary material is honestly mastered even if one has been gifted grades along the way.

I would like to mention that my professor for College Algebra didn't give me any gifted grades for exams, quizzes, or homework because the assignments were online and graded automatically. I guess I could have used notes or the textbook on the unproctored tests and quizzes, but I chose not to. He also never rounded none of my grades. The only real bonuses for me were the graded discussions I had to complete. I will have that professor again for College Trigonometry.

 

[symbolipoint]

I would like to mention that my professor for College Algebra didn't give me any gifted grades for exams, quizzes, or homework because the assignments were online and graded automatically. I guess I could have used notes or the textbook on the unproctored tests and quizzes, but I chose not to. He also never rounded none of my grades. The only real bonuses for me were the graded discussions I had to complete. I will have that professor again for College Trigonometry.

Hard to say exactly what the gifting really is. Some instructors or systems make a strict 90-80-70-60 system; some others may apply some statistical curving. A student who barely learns might be able to be issued a C, but then being qualified to move on to what's next is not really certain. Maybe that C grade would have become a D grade in the stricter grading system. This was done in some classes, both of Mathematics and of Physics. The more reliable way is the strict 90-80-70-60, where you know you did how you did, because you knew what the percentages meant. If you are honest with yourself, no matter which method of grading was used, you knew what your grade issued really meant. A big blow may come to students in Physics 1, in which one must work very hard to try to at least earn a C, even if grade "curving" is used. The student could continue on to Physics 2 (which usually is Electricity And Magnetism). Then, the student may still struggle, and a gift of C might be the result for his grade. Not very good if this student wants a degree in Physics, but probably adequate if his major field is something else. THIS is a way to help decide if Physics is for you as a major field, or not.

 

[Dr. Courtney]

Hard to say exactly what the gifting really is. Some instructors or systems make a strict 90-80-70-60 system; some others may apply some statistical curving. A student who barely learns might be able to be issued a C, but then being qualified to move on to what's next is not really certain. Maybe that C grade would have become a D grade in the stricter grading system. This was done in some classes, both of Mathematics and of Physics. The more reliable way is the strict 90-80-70-60, where you know you did how you did, because you knew what the percentages meant. If you are honest with yourself, no matter which method of grading was used, you knew what your grade issued really meant. A big blow may come to students in Physics 1, in which one must work very hard to try to at least earn a C, even if grade "curving" is used. The student could continue on to Physics 2 (which usually is Electricity And Magnetism). Then, the student may still struggle, and a gift of C might be the result for his grade. Not very good if this student wants a degree in Physics, but probably adequate if his major field is something else. THIS is a way to help decide if Physics is for you as a major field, or not.

Some years ago, I taught at a school where every student who earned a C or better in our school's Physics 1 course and took Physics 2 did well in Physics 2. In contrast, every student who enrolled in our Physics 2 course after earning the pre-requisite Physics 1 credit at a nearby community college dropped, failed, or earned a D in Physics 2. Those students were unprepared as a result of grade gifting.

I've also had my share of Physics 1 students who were nowhere near competent in algebra, in spite of As and Bs on their transcripts in algebra and pre-calculus. The incidence was over 50% in some places I taught (North Carolina) and lower in other places, but in spite of explicit pre-requisites, there have always been at least 20% of students in every Physics 1 class I've taught without real algebra skills needed to succeed in the course. They either had to work very hard to pick those skills up along the way, they had to drop, or they failed. How do so many students have the pre-requisites on their transcripts without the skills? Grade gifting.

Likewise, when I taught Calculus 1 at the Air Force Academy, about 20% of the students in those courses had abysmal algebra skills, and the Math Department had to put an assessment and remediation program in place in the first weeks of the semester to assist most of those students in passing. Many of those students had to learn algebra right alongside of Calculus, and the Math Department learned through time and experience that ALEKS was the most straightforward path to doing that.

It is difficult for students to assess their skills in a given pre-requisite, and it is unfortunate that grades issued by teachers in pre-requisite courses cannot be trusted as indicators of subject proficiency. ALEKS is not only a reliable indicator, but if skills fall short, it identifies the weak areas and offers targeted practice so skills can be improved quickly without spending much time on areas that do not need more practice. Perfect? Of course not. Just better and more certain than grades issued by lots of teachers these days.

 

[PseudoQuantum]

It is difficult for students to assess their skills in a given pre-requisite, and it is unfortunate that grades issued by teachers in pre-requisite courses cannot be trusted as indicators of subject proficiency. ALEKS is not only a reliable indicator, but if skills fall short, it identifies the weak areas and offers targeted practice so skills can be improved quickly without spending much time on areas that do not need more practice. Perfect? Of course not. Just better and more certain than grades issued by lots of teachers these days.

I signed up for a free trial of ALEKS last night so I could try out STEM Precalculus. I took the assessment and got a 44% mastery. I would have gotten a better score if I would have corrected the mistake I know I made on one problem I'm sure I would have gotten right, I accidentally skipped a problem I was very confident on, the assessment was shortened because I was using a trial, and I wasn't given any matrix or logarithmic problems which I am confident I would have gotten right because I love doing logarithm problems and matrix algebra.

With all that said, I am going to purchase a six month membership once I am finished with College Trigonometry. I will be able to get a more accurate and better mastery placement. I may even place in more than 90% mastery by then. It seems like an excellent way to practice and maintain skills until I start Calculus I in the Fall.

 

[MidgetDwarf]

The major thing I dislike about Alex is the video examples. Although good in theory, many students will just abuse it and memorize algorithms to solve such as problems;hence, not understanding what is happening. It is a great tool to get people to be somewhat proficient, but I believe ALEKS should be used as a supplement to a book.

I have experience with ALEKS, such as TA a few lab sections, and I noticed the students just click click away. I forced students to work on ALEKS for one hour, and not view the videos. If students needed help, I would walk over and explain it. However, they were allowed to do what ever they wanted at home.

What I noticed is that students major problem is geometry. If more geometry was taught at a sufficient level, or even reviewed, students would not have that much difficulty understanding intuitively Calculus. Furthermore, the properties of vectors, such as vector addition (parallelogram), would not be difficult. A lot of introductory physics students, from my experience, just memorize were certain angles go when doing to Force diagrams. ..

 

[Dr. Courtney]

The major thing I dislike about Alex is the video examples. Although good in theory, many students will just abuse it and memorize algorithms to solve such as problems;hence, not understanding what is happening. It is a great tool to get people to be somewhat proficient, but I believe ALEKS should be used as a supplement to a book.

I have experience with ALEKS, such as TA a few lab sections, and I noticed the students just click click away. I forced students to work on ALEKS for one hour, and not view the videos. If students needed help, I would walk over and explain it. However, they were allowed to do what ever they wanted at home.

What I noticed is that students major problem is geometry. If more geometry was taught at a sufficient level, or even reviewed, students would not have that much difficulty understanding intuitively Calculus. Furthermore, the properties of vectors, such as vector addition (parallelogram), would not be difficult. A lot of introductory physics students, from my experience, just memorize were certain angles go when doing to Force diagrams. ..

You make some good points. I prefer ALEKS to assess, review, and strengthen weak areas after a traditional book-based course has been completed. But it's not bad as a replacement for book-based courses for some students, especially if they are good at finding alternate resources to explain things when they are stuck. As I mentioned above, my biggest gripe with book based courses is too many teachers gift grades. I've seen lots of students with As and Bs on their transcripts in pre-calc who could not break 60% on an ALEKS pre-calc assessment and who were woefully unprepared for college math and physics. Those students are NOT ready for a rigorous Calculus course or even an algebra-based College Physics class. ALEKS can quickly identify weak areas and offer needed practice and strengthening in those weak areas without the students needing to repeat an entire pre-calc course.

 

[symbolipoint]

"You do not have permission to view this page or perform this action."

That is what error message I am shown if I click to "reply" to one of these postings in THIS topic. The topic is not locked, not closed, and I'm not banned (or am I but was not yet told?), so I cannot understand the error message that I cannot view or do the action.

All I wanted to say regards to Apple_Mango's comment is that entrance requirement to "college", if for Community College, is very low and needs no examination; but entrance to a University has not an examination, but GRADE requirements as reported on transcripts. Dr. Courtney was discussing course prerequisites, grades, their meanings, and the value of ALEKS. Much of his emphasis was the problem of grades as a gift, which too often will mislead students into thinking they are qualified for a next-in-sequence course when they are in fact unqualified.