I have cheated in some of my classes

[twofish-quant]

It is cheating, but it only really has an affect if you gain out of it. If you got promoted because of the new wonder code, that is wrong and you've cheated someone out of what is rightfully theirs.

Maybe that's true, but you have to realize that the entire economic system depends on doing just that.

 

[JaredJames]

Maybe that's true, but you have to realize that the entire economic system depends on doing just that.

Well passing someone else work off as your own without referencing the original author is plagiarism and is punishable in many areas, particularly learning environments.

If I found out someone else used my code (with or without my permission) and then passed it off as their own (they claim they created it), I'd be furious. I don't know many people who wouldn't have something to say about it.

The problem is it's generally the boss who does it.

Like I said, using the work of others is different to claiming it is your own.

 

[Ryker]

We really need to change the topic, since what we are talking about here is different from what the OP was talking about.

With that username, I think he is a troll, but the debate that ensued and still takes place is a good one, and I don't think you should make an effort to stop it

 

[twofish-quant]

Well passing someone else work off as your own without referencing the original author is plagiarism and is punishable in many areas, particularly learning environments.

Yes. And it's accepted and encouraged in others, like most corporate bureaucracies. Making the transition between the two can be a shock.

I don't know many people who wouldn't have something to say about it.

If you work in commercial software development, you have to learn some very different cultural practices. Also, in corporations, they way that they keep you from complaining too much is to pay you money. If my boss takes credit for my work (which he does), then I want him to do it, if it gets him and me more money (which it does).

But even that is different from academic situations. If you take a test for someone else, the fact that you paid them large amounts of money so that they don't complain doesn't make it "OK" whereas the fact that you pay someone money for getting credit makes things fine in business.

Different worlds.

 

[twofish-quant]

One other reason why you want someone else to take the credit is that so you don't get blamed if something goes wrong. For example, if I write a program, and then five years later it destroys the world economy, it might be a very good thing that I'm totally anonymous whereas it's my boss's boss's boss's boss's that has to testify before Congress.

 

[General_Sax]

With that username, I think he is a troll, but the debate that ensued and still takes place is a good one, and I don't think you should make an effort to stop it

I take it you've never read Kim Stanley Robinson's Red Mars have you lieutenant Ryker?

 

[Ryker]

I take it you've never read Kim Stanley Robinson's Red Mars have you lieutenant Ryker?

Point being?

 

[General_Sax]

1) It's a good novel, but the rest of the trilogy is kinda *meh*

2) You'd see where my name comes from

 

[Maricon]

I appreciate some of the thoughtful advice on here.

As long as your current reputation relies on work that is honestly your own, i suggest you continue to your goal.

I'd like to do that. From what some people are suggesting, maybe I'm being too hard on myself. On the other hand, it was chronic and not a momentary lapse in judgment. When I look back on it, it seems totally nuts.

I saw on your page that you are in academics. Isn't misconduct a cardinal sin in academics? Are there any other people in academics on here who care to comment about any of this?

 

[twofish-quant]

I saw on your page that you are in academics. Isn't misconduct a cardinal sin in academics?

Yes it is. You've sinned. OK. Now what?

 

[micromass]

I saw on your page that you are in academics. Isn't misconduct a cardinal sin in academics? Are there any other people in academics on here who care to comment about any of this?

Yes, it is a cardinal sin. But there is a way to make up for it. That is to go to grad school and to show that you can handle that without cheating...

 

[Andy Resnick]

If I have some choice in the matter, which I normally don't. I should point out that almost every bit of code that I've written in the last 10 years has been copyrighted to some large corporation, and I get zero credit for anything that I've written. I do get some money out of it, but the people with control over the distribution get more money.

But then you *are* getting credit- you are properly remunerated for your efforts.

 

[Andy Resnick]

One other reason why you want someone else to take the credit is that so you don't get blamed if something goes wrong. For example, if I write a program, and then five years later it destroys the world economy, it might be a very good thing that I'm totally anonymous whereas it's my boss's boss's boss's boss's that has to testify before Congress.

Most contracts have a 'hold harmless' clause which protects you in a case like this.

 

[Andy Resnick]

I never said that I wouldn't, but I'm still unsure of who would be cheated. Does the person that developed the hypothetical code have any real ownership of it? I thought the company would 'own' it and myself, being an employee, would be entitled to use it.

When a person develops a product under contract, the product belongs to the person/agency/corporation that paid the contract. If I write code and freely release it, it becomes 'public domain' and I have no legal claim on the work. There's lots of public domain code out there- and some of it has authorship tagged in it somewhere. It's good practice to leave that tag in place.

You *do* raise another interesting question- do you automatically have a right to use/own products your company produces? My guess is you can purchase it like any other private citizen, but you have no special claim on the product (i.e. you are not entitled to use it for free).

 

[twofish-quant]

When a person develops a product under contract, the product belongs to the person/agency/corporation that paid the contract.

Legally in the US, the copyright for work that is written under contract is owned by the author unless there is a contractual provision otherwise. If you work as an employee, then it's work for hire which is owned by the employer. Also, it's very rare in the software industry have a contract if you work as an W-2 employee.

In any case, this is really different in the academic situation, where credit for a work is something that you can't legitimately sell. Curiously this is also true for the movie industry where there are rather elaborate rules for director and producer credit.

If I write code and freely release it, it becomes 'public domain' and I have no legal claim on the work.

It works the other way, once a code becomes public domain, you can do anything you want with it. Legally you can take my code and claim ownership of it. If you don't want that to happen, then you can put into under one of several licenses.

There's lots of public domain code out there- and some of it has authorship tagged in it somewhere. It's good practice to leave that tag in place.

There's something called the 3-clause BSD license that requires people to include contributors. The 3-clause BSD license has been phased out in favor of a 2-clause BSD license. The problem with requiring people to keep a list of contributors is that after a few years, you end up with these huge lists for small amounts of code.

You *do* raise another interesting question- do you automatically have a right to use/own products your company produces?

Absolutely not if you are an employee. It's work-for-hire which means that legally I have no rights. This poses a problem because if I want to show future employers samples of work product, I can't.

My guess is you can purchase it like any other private citizen, but you have no special claim on the product (i.e. you are not entitled to use it for free).

Except that most software is not for sale, and with consumer software even if you can buy the software it's useless without source code.

 

[twofish-quant]

Most contracts have a 'hold harmless' clause which protects you in a case like this.

1) Except that most software development in the US is not done under contract. I've been working in commercial software for over a decade, and I've only had a contract for about a year of that time.

2) Also the contract is meaningless in the court of public opinion.

 

[twofish-quant]

But then you *are* getting credit- you are properly remunerated for your efforts.

It's not the same thing. Not to say that it's worse, but it's a different situation than academia. In particular, in academia, you can't sell credit. Also, whether the renumeration is proper depends on your view of what the value of renumeration should be. If you think that people that create work should get the most amount of money for their work product, then the current economic system just doesn't do that.

 

[Andy Resnick]

1) Except that most software development in the US is not done under contract. I've been working in commercial software for over a decade, and I've only had a contract for about a year of that time.

2) Also the contract is meaningless in the court of public opinion.

It's not the same thing. Not to say that it's worse, but it's a different situation than academia. In particular, in academia, you can't sell credit. Also, whether the renumeration is proper depends on your view of what the value of renumeration should be. If you think that people that create work should get the most amount of money for their work product, then the current economic system just doesn't do that.

I guess I'm a little confused by your comments- for example, where I was at NASA (working for a contractor), any and all products (including software, hardware test results, etc) were the property of the US government. I had to get permission to publish results, since I was using government property and getting paid under contract to carry out specific actions.

In the context of this thread, if a member of my team asked for my help (providing an algorithm, writing code, running a test, etc) and I gave it, that person acknowledged my contribution when he reported on *his* progress to the project manager. People who did not were quickly marginalized.

Salary is set as part of a legal contract which both parties enter into voluntarily. I have turned down jobs because the offered salary was too low. I also set my hourly consulting fee; how could I consider being paid an amount I decided to be unfair?

 

[creepypasta13]

I recall a few exams during my undergrad in which I could've cheated easily. But I chose not to. As a result, my transcript does in fact look worse, but I have no regrets

 

[twofish-quant]

For example, where I was at NASA (working for a contractor), any and all products (including software, hardware test results, etc) were the property of the US government. I had to get permission to publish results, since I was using government property and getting paid under contract to carry out specific actions.

There is a sourced wikipedia article on this topic

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright_status_of_work_by_the_U.S._government

In the context of this thread, if a member of my team asked for my help (providing an algorithm, writing code, running a test, etc) and I gave it, that person acknowledged my contribution when he reported on *his* progress to the project manager. People who did not were quickly marginalized.

Different groups have different conventions. In the companies that I've worked in, the team sinks or swims together so there isn't too much benefit in taking individual credit. If you are personally outstanding, but the team sinks, you are pretty much doomed anyway.

The big decisions come in when you decide which team you want to join and who you want to work with.

Salary is set as part of a legal contract which both parties enter into voluntarily.

In private software development, there are no contracts for W-2 employees in the US. You have to sign an NDA or perhaps a non-compete, but unless you are at senior level, you don't work under a contract if you are an employee. The salary gets set by the employer and once he has paid the salary that you are own for a two week period, they are legally free to change it. They don't because people will walk.

Contract development is a different situation. It's rather odd since people with contracts have less job security than W-2 employees.

I have turned down jobs because the offered salary was too low. I also set my hourly consulting fee; how could I consider being paid an amount I decided to be unfair?

Because you have to eat, and no one else will give you a better offer.

 

[Andy Resnick]

There is a sourced wikipedia article on this topic

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright_status_of_work_by_the_U.S._government

Oh yeah... I forgot about the FAR. That, and the ITAR, caused us no end of stress.