I have cheated in some of my classes

[Maricon]

As an undergrad I have cheated in some of my classes, ridiculous stuff that now makes me sick. I'm not sure why I've changed, but I have. Now I can't get it off my mind, and I am ethical in my classes. I'm also ethical in the lab that I work in. For the classes that I did well in on my own, my teachers think highly of me, saying I should apply to excellent programs. No matter what I were to do in grad school, I'd be ethical even if that means doing something else other than science/engineering. I'd still like to go to grad school because I love what I do now and want to learn more about it by participating in research. Telling people would probably kill my future. I also want to do the right thing, whatever that is. Anybody have some advice or suggestions?

 

[Headacheguy]

You say you have changed. So why does it still bother you?

 

[Maricon]

It was wrong, egregious. It cheapens my degree. I don't see how I couldn't feel guilty about that. People have supported me through tough times and believe in me, and I've abused that trust and good faith. I see good, honest people (as far as I know) with worse transcripts struggle with getting into schools. It's hard not to look at that and feel like ****.

 

[cristo]

So what you cheated a few times, the important thing is that you realize it was wrong and will not do it again. Unless you cheated on everything, and would not have obtained anything like the grades you did without cheating, then I don't see how it can harm your grad school prospects.

As for your last post, well, that's called having a conscience. You can either go along with your applications ignoring the fact you cheated a couple of times in the past or, if your conscience cannot deal with that, then you should not apply. I don't think anyone can tell you what to do on that!

 

[Choppy]

Guilt is one of the consequences of cheating, I'm afraid. People that I know who have cheated - in copying lab reports for example - tend to rationalize their actions with an 'everyone else is doing it' attitude. From an observer point of view, as soon as I hear someone beginning to make such an argument, to me it shines through as a glaring expression of guilt.

Unfortunately you can't change what you've done. You can only change your approach from this point on.

Perhaps more serious than the guilt are the consequences of getting yourself into a situation you are not adequately prepared for. If you have to cheat to get into graduate school - eventually you will find yourself in a situation where cheating is not an option and you will have to suffer the consequences of not being prepared.

I know of serveral cases where international students were strongly suspected of having cheated on their english equivalency exams. They came into their programs with strong numbers, but struggled immensely and in some cases either failed out or withdrew because of communication issues. (That being said, it's difficult to actually accuse someone of cheating because these scenarios are also indicative of a testing process that is faulty.)

 

[G01]

At some point in everyone's life (at many points, really), we all make bad mistakes and have to live with them. Some people break the law, others cheat, others end up doing things that even they believe is immoral. Most of us end up not living up to standards that we set for ourselves and end up doing things that we detest and believe to be wrong.

This is one of the defining aspects of being human. We set high standards for ourselves, believing we are meant for better things. Inevitably we fall along the way, but we get up and keep on going.

Unfortunately you will have to live with the guilt. That's just part of it. It will get easier: If you go to grad school and survive off of honest effort, you will slowly begin to realize that you aren't a fraud a actually have the skills your degree says you do.

Let the past be in the past. Pick yourself up and keep going. The world doesn't end because we make mistakes and fail, even at important things. If that was the case, humanity wouldn't have lasted even for the relatively short time we've been here.

 

[DrummingAtom]

Perhaps more serious than the guilt are the consequences of getting yourself into a situation you are not adequately prepared for. If you have to cheat to get into graduate school - eventually you will find yourself in a situation where cheating is not an option and you will have to suffer the consequences of not being prepared.

I agree with this completely. I've heard that there are a a lot of cheaters in one of my classes and sure they might get a passing grade this time, but what's going to happen when they can't cheat? Right now this class is 100+ students, the classes get smaller as we go on and cheating will get harder and harder. Most of these kids will eventually fail because I would hope cheating can't be done throughout an academic career. Although, if I'm wrong there's going to be some pretty crappy Engineers out there.

 

[General_Sax]

I've heard that there are a a lot of cheaters in one of my classes and sure they might get a passing grade this time, but what's going to happen when they can't cheat?

There is no cheating in the real world. You are free to take others answers, aren't you?

 

[G01]

There is no cheating in the real world. You are free to take others answers, aren't you?

So, if I start trying to sell someone else's work as my own and make money off of it no one will stop me? I'm free to do this? I think the patent office and the copyright people probably think differently.

 

[DrummingAtom]

There is no cheating in the real world. You are free to take others answers, aren't you?

Yeah dude, go ahead and put that on your resume. You'll get far I promise. If you're a supporter of cheating then Politics is right up your alley.

Please define "answers" in the real world. Are answers patents? Or are they stealing another employee's work and calling it your own?

 

[physics girl phd]

The last thing I remember cheating on was my third grade cloud-identification test. , and yes, I still feel the guilt (I was raised Catholic, and as such, thrive on guilt and confession cycles). Does this means I don't know my cloud types now, as well as I could? Perhaps. Does it impede my higher study of weather processes, etc. Perhaps. How significantly? In my opinion, probably very little, especially if I cared to study such things on a higher level. What does this little story mean to you? That's up to you to decide. I perhaps grew up a bit more responsible a bit earlier, so at least I don't have a guilt about my degrees per-say (and one failed test would not even grade-repeat justify).

However, if your guilt overwhelms you and you feel urged to purge yourself to the parties you offended (since you may have since become close in later, more advanced coursework or research-work), you might want to consult an attorney first. Degrees can be withheld for reasons of academic integrity (though colleges are more likely to make students take failed grades, retake courses, or redo plagiarized work, such as a major project or thesis, because they have their own legal concerns). Best to perhaps always wonder how much you cheapened your degree, and, as others have advised, make amends for it in your subsequent schooling.

Perhaps also good to note this experience for later, when/if you have children around you or students you mentor. Our children know I cheated on my third grade cloud test... and they know I failed a sixth grade math quiz... but they also know have done research at a national lab and I now teach physics to college students (some of whom I also I think I've told the cloud-test and math-quiz stories).

 

[Mr_Nice_Guy]

I may sound like a nag or someone who cares. Here it goes, let's see. I will step out on a limb here. Cheating means crossing the imaginary line in your brain. Possibly going against the grain in your heart. It is unknown territory at first. We all face those types of decisions most of our lives. How ethical or successful we are can be measured by these decisions. Imagine many will never be hunters of innocent deer while others rationalize the action and food. Many men will stand by there families while being categorized by the masses as men who on the whole abandon there families and we breed prisoners. Many things we do wrong will make us better, decide what those are from those things that dont, that is another trick to master. In some cases we change for the good, in some cases it makes some people worse. How many Skeletons will you place in your closet? You will face them later and that’s entirely up to you, now. Being honest helps you be able to stay transparent if you choose. If not the world will find out, someone will see your demise and laugh as you fall...hehe! In the world we live in today cheating in the high tech or science fields will land you outside the door, or in bed with someone else’s wife or get you applause by the piblic if it is behind the Chiefs oval desk. There are too many smart ones who studied and put in the time and sweat. Today choose to be the best you can be and let the grace extended to you do the rest. Be a good person to someone, help them not cheat and it helps you even in your scores. Do not deceive yourself it could cost you your own life through lies and deception. At some point you may believe your own cheating is right that is the worst consequence. Finally in the end at the death bed do you truly rest in peace- it is connected. I am older and wiser due to failures and demises yet happier because I outweighed the scales to the healthier side while I was very young. I think it is ok to be unbalanced in this area. Dont cheat, it hurts you and sometimes others. There may be an underlying issue. Affirm to your brain that you will be honest and good to people and yourself. The same public which urges you to continue will bring you down without mercy. Be good to yourself and be smart we don't want failing o'rings on spaceships traveling at several thousand miles an hour or you having sex with your counseling session. What you are feeling is knowing the ability to cross over lies asleep in you and you can wake him. Leave it asleep and don't live on the edge.

 

[Shackleford]

Don't cheat on the exam.

 

[General_Sax]

So, if I start trying to sell someone else's work as my own and make money off of it no one will stop me? I'm free to do this? I think the patent office and the copyright people probably think differently.

That depends, on if the work/design is already patented. If not, well you get the drift.

Please define "answers" in the real world.

I think the definition of answer is the same in the real and fantastical worlds ;p




If I copy a line of code from another source into a line of code for a school assignment, then I'm cheating right? If I'm an employee and I copy a line of code into a line of code for a project, then am I still cheating?

 

[Andy Resnick]

If I copy a line of code from another source into a line of code for a school assignment, then I'm cheating right? If I'm an employee and I copy a line of code into a line of code for a project, then am I still cheating?

If you don't acknowledge where the code came from, yes. Furthermore, if this is a job (as opposed to school), your coworkers will determine you are one of 'those' employees that should be kept at arm's length.

 

[General_Sax]

If you don't acknowledge where the code came from, yes.

What exactly would I be cheating?

Furthermore, if this is a job (as opposed to school), your coworkers will determine you are one of 'those' employees that should be kept at arm's length.

Well that's a silly scenario. If someone in the office knows how to write a certain piece of code, then I'd just ask them to write it for me or teach me. I also doubt that the majority of co-workers would take offence at someone using 'their' line of code as a solution to a problem in writing a program. I haven't even met an undergrad student that has never copied or been offended by someone copying them (for an assignment, never an exam/quiz) -- however, I've also never met someone that has 'abused' this trust, ie, copying a question or two is okay, but 4 assignments in a row... not so much. -- so I don't know where these 'sticklers' in the workforce would come from.

In before: Well no one cheats at my school/your school is just cheaters/you're an academic failure/I'm just that much better than you.

 

[twofish-quant]

So, if I start trying to sell someone else's work as my own and make money off of it no one will stop me? I'm free to do this? I think the patent office and the copyright people probably think differently.

Maybe. Maybe not. Any time you go into IP law, you end up having to deal with lawyers, and what the law ends up telling what you can and can't do may be different from what is moral or what is intuitive.

In general, people that produce knowledge don't get very much money. The people that make the most money are the people that take ideas and then distribute it.

 

[mathwonk]

As long as your current reputation relies on work that is honestly your own, i suggest you continue to your goal.

As a young student I once stole a book from the bookstore at my college. I felt so guilty as an adult, that 20 years later, while visiting again, I turned myself into the same store. When they turned me over to the security staff they asked who caught me, and I said no one, I got completely away. they were puzzled - so why are you here? I said I turned myself in.

They were in a new situation as apparently few people who get away turn themselves in. Fortunately for me, the guy smiled and asked what the book had cost and let me pay the price from 20 years earlier. I could not have afforded the then current price.

It felt so good I remembered another store I had taken a book from and looked for it unsuccessfully. then I realized I was just trying to ease my conscience, and it mattered little to the stores. So I forgave myself and forgot about it. But 50 years later I obviously still remember it.

One choice is to never do it again and move on. Another is to admit it to someone like your advisor or the teacher in the original course, and see what happens. You always run a risk this way. E.g. if you read the bylaws of your college you may find out what the penalty is for cheating. You should then expect to pay that penalty. E.g. you may lose credit for those courses, or worse.

 

[AlephZero]

Well that's a silly scenario. If someone in the office knows how to write a certain piece of code, then I'd just ask them to write it for me or teach me. I also doubt that the majority of co-workers would take offence at someone using 'their' line of code as a solution to a problem in writing a program.

Am I right in assuming you are still at college, not actually working?

Don't kid yourself. If somebody tried to pull that sort of trick in the group I work in, everybody would know about it within half a day - including your boss, and probably your boss's boss as well.

You forgot one thing. In a work situation, your pay depends on how you perform. Unless giving out free advice to incompetents is part of your assigned work load, doing it won't increase your annual bonus by one cent. And the more money the incompetents get by taking advantage of your good nature, the less money there will be for you.

 

[Andy Resnick]

What exactly would I be cheating?

Why wouldn't you acknowledge someone else's work?

 

[twofish-quant]

Don't kid yourself. If somebody tried to pull that sort of trick in the group I work in, everybody would know about it within half a day - including your boss, and probably your boss's boss as well.

It's not a trick. Where I work, the policy usually is I use your code, you use my code. If someone has published code on the internet that does what we want, we use that.

You forgot one thing. In a work situation, your pay depends on how you perform. Unless giving out free advice to incompetents is part of your assigned work load, doing it won't increase your annual bonus by one cent.

It's called "customer support" and yes one thing on my 360-annual review is how friendly I am at dealing with requests for help. A lot of the people that I help *aren't* technical people, and I get paid to write code which other people can use so that they can do stuff.

And the more money the incompetents get by taking advantage of your good nature, the less money there will be for you.

Where I work, everyone is incompetent at something. Also trying to deal with support requests with a smile is really hard, but being nice for support requests is part of my job.

It should be noted that in any company that I've ever worked at, the people that make the really big bucks tend to be people that are completely incompetent at programming, which is why they pay me to do it.

The other thing is that I don't get any credit for "doing stuff on my own." If I can fix a problem in five minutes by copying code off the internet or finding the answer to the problem on google, then people want me to do that rather than spending several hours working out the problem myself.

Also, it should be pointed out that you usually can't just cut and paste something off google, and if you find some software that has been written by someone else, you'll have to spend a non-trivial amount of time trying to rework it to do what you want it to do.

 

[Andy Resnick]

It's not a trick. Where I work, the policy usually is I use your code, you use my code. If someone has published code on the internet that does what we want, we use that.

Of course- amongst professionals, that's the norm. But I bet if someone tried to take credit for your work- deliberately acting to prevent you from getting due credit, you would most likely be less willing to help that person again.

 

[twofish-quant]

I also want to do the right thing, whatever that is. Anybody have some advice or suggestions?

Talk to a priest, that's what they are there for. (Seriously)

 

[twofish-quant]

Just to clarify my views here. Personally, I think that if you are in a computer course and the teacher doesn't allow you to work collaboratively then you have an incompetent teacher, but you still have to follow the rules of incompetent teachers. If a teacher tells you not to copy work from other people, then you just don't do that because those are the instructions you are given, and sometimes, you need to follow the rules of authority figures even if they make no sense at all.

There are also two different problems:

1) Should I feel guilty about doing X?
2) I feel guilty about doing X, what should I do about it.

Those are two different problems and if you are in 2), then talk to a priest.

 

[Mathnomalous]

Uh... the OP's name means f*g**t in Spanish, so, in a way he is cheating.

 

[twofish-quant]

Of course- amongst professionals, that's the norm. But I bet if someone tried to take credit for your work- deliberately acting to prevent you from getting due credit, you would most likely be less willing to help that person again.

If I have some choice in the matter, which I normally don't. I should point out that almost every bit of code that I've written in the last 10 years has been copyrighted to some large corporation, and I get zero credit for anything that I've written. I do get some money out of it, but the people with control over the distribution get more money.

One other observation that I've made is that people that are somewhat amoral tend to have an advantage in business and politics. If the problem is that I feel bad about getting cheated, then someone that is able to cheat me out of stuff and then sweet talk me so that I don't feel mad at them (even if it involves telling me lies) without feeling guilty about any of that, that person has some advantages in corporate and academic bureaucracies. Once you have sufficient power, then you can change the rules so that you are doing is legal and accepted.

I think that part of it is that I've seen such "large scale cheating" (and been at the wrong end of it) that small petty stuff like copying homework doesn't bother me that much. If you feel guilty about copying someone else's homework, then you should feel good about yourself that you feel guilty.

 

[twofish-quant]

One other reason I think it's a good idea to encourage collaborative work is that if you get several people together, you very quickly end up with informal rules of behavior as to what copying is permissible and what is not.

 

[General_Sax]

Don't kid yourself. If somebody tried to pull that sort of trick in the group I work in, everybody would know about it within half a day - including your boss, and probably your boss's boss as well.

And what would the consequence be? I mean if I can use code that is already produced, then why should I go through the effort of building the wheel? If anything it seems like a more efficient use of one's energies and the companies dollars. I'm not saying that it's acceptable to rely on others to preform every aspect of one's job, but the idea that one must be some utterly self-reliant working machine is just silly. Personally, if I was manager I would encourage the use of code that has already been written over the re-writing of code.

You forgot one thing. In a work situation, your pay depends on how you perform. Unless giving out free advice to incompetents is part of your assigned work load, doing it won't increase your annual bonus by one cent. And the more money the incompetents get by taking advantage of your good nature, the less money there will be for you.

Do you honestly think that one's pay is entirely influenced by one's performance? I know you're trying to portray me as naive or young or whatever, but I think you might need to look in the mirror. Also, I doubt that your fellow employees are really the solely limiting factor in your maximum pay. If the company fired all it's incompetent employees, just how much of raise would you expect? BTW, having difficulties with one particular aspect of one's job/assignment is not, by itself, a sign of incompetence. IMO, one would be incompetent if they didn't use all the resources available to oneself in completing a task.

P.S. you sound like a real team player ;p

Why wouldn't you acknowledge someone else's work?

I never said that I wouldn't, but I'm still unsure of who would be cheated. Does the person that developed the hypothetical code have any real ownership of it? I thought the company would 'own' it and myself, being an employee, would be entitled to use it.

 

[JaredJames]

I think you're arguing two different point here.

To take someone elses code, some generic code and use it is one thing, it doesn't hurt anyone. If anything it's time saving. Sharing code is a common thing, particularly when you look on the net.

However, if someone has spent time working on a piece of code, something unique (for me it's generally something no one else could achieve within your office/class) and you take it and pass it off as your own, that is wrong. Now I'm talking about taking this code and telling someone you designed/wrote it, not simply using it.

It is cheating, but it only really has an affect if you gain out of it. If you got promoted because of the new wonder code, that is wrong and you've cheated someone out of what is rightfully theirs.

 

[twofish-quant]

We really need to change the topic, since what we are talking about here is different from what the OP was talking about.

Personally, if I was manager I would encourage the use of code that has already been written over the re-writing of code.

Which is what tends to happen in commercial software companies. Also, as a programmer, I try to put as much of my code in a form where someone can copy it and reuse it. The reason for this is that I get more credit from copied code.

Do you honestly think that one's pay is entirely influenced by one's performance?

It is, but performance is a tauntological term. If you can take someone else's work, present it as your own, and then not get yourself in trouble, you have a wonderful future in management. Seriously. How much of Microsoft Word do you think that Bill Gates wrote?

I never said that I wouldn't, but I'm still unsure of who would be cheated. Does the person that developed the hypothetical code have any real ownership of it?

No legal ownership. One reason I prefer to work on open source code when I can is that I can use that code even after I leave the company.

I thought the company would 'own' it and myself, being an employee, would be entitled to use it.

Something that does happen is that people do develop some rather elaborate rules for dividing the pie. This also happens with software collaborations. I've almost never seen a study group in which one person does all of the work, and everyone else copies their answers because there's nothing in it for the person doing the work.

 

[twofish-quant]

It is cheating, but it only really has an affect if you gain out of it. If you got promoted because of the new wonder code, that is wrong and you've cheated someone out of what is rightfully theirs.

Maybe that's true, but you have to realize that the entire economic system depends on doing just that.

 

[JaredJames]

Maybe that's true, but you have to realize that the entire economic system depends on doing just that.

Well passing someone else work off as your own without referencing the original author is plagiarism and is punishable in many areas, particularly learning environments.

If I found out someone else used my code (with or without my permission) and then passed it off as their own (they claim they created it), I'd be furious. I don't know many people who wouldn't have something to say about it.

The problem is it's generally the boss who does it.

Like I said, using the work of others is different to claiming it is your own.

 

[Ryker]

We really need to change the topic, since what we are talking about here is different from what the OP was talking about.

With that username, I think he is a troll, but the debate that ensued and still takes place is a good one, and I don't think you should make an effort to stop it

 

[twofish-quant]

Well passing someone else work off as your own without referencing the original author is plagiarism and is punishable in many areas, particularly learning environments.

Yes. And it's accepted and encouraged in others, like most corporate bureaucracies. Making the transition between the two can be a shock.

I don't know many people who wouldn't have something to say about it.

If you work in commercial software development, you have to learn some very different cultural practices. Also, in corporations, they way that they keep you from complaining too much is to pay you money. If my boss takes credit for my work (which he does), then I want him to do it, if it gets him and me more money (which it does).

But even that is different from academic situations. If you take a test for someone else, the fact that you paid them large amounts of money so that they don't complain doesn't make it "OK" whereas the fact that you pay someone money for getting credit makes things fine in business.

Different worlds.

 

[twofish-quant]

One other reason why you want someone else to take the credit is that so you don't get blamed if something goes wrong. For example, if I write a program, and then five years later it destroys the world economy, it might be a very good thing that I'm totally anonymous whereas it's my boss's boss's boss's boss's that has to testify before Congress.

 

[General_Sax]

With that username, I think he is a troll, but the debate that ensued and still takes place is a good one, and I don't think you should make an effort to stop it

I take it you've never read Kim Stanley Robinson's Red Mars have you lieutenant Ryker?

 

[Ryker]

I take it you've never read Kim Stanley Robinson's Red Mars have you lieutenant Ryker?

Point being?

 

[General_Sax]

1) It's a good novel, but the rest of the trilogy is kinda *meh*

2) You'd see where my name comes from

 

[Maricon]

I appreciate some of the thoughtful advice on here.

As long as your current reputation relies on work that is honestly your own, i suggest you continue to your goal.

I'd like to do that. From what some people are suggesting, maybe I'm being too hard on myself. On the other hand, it was chronic and not a momentary lapse in judgment. When I look back on it, it seems totally nuts.

I saw on your page that you are in academics. Isn't misconduct a cardinal sin in academics? Are there any other people in academics on here who care to comment about any of this?

 

[twofish-quant]

I saw on your page that you are in academics. Isn't misconduct a cardinal sin in academics?

Yes it is. You've sinned. OK. Now what?

 

[micromass]

I saw on your page that you are in academics. Isn't misconduct a cardinal sin in academics? Are there any other people in academics on here who care to comment about any of this?

Yes, it is a cardinal sin. But there is a way to make up for it. That is to go to grad school and to show that you can handle that without cheating...

 

[Andy Resnick]

If I have some choice in the matter, which I normally don't. I should point out that almost every bit of code that I've written in the last 10 years has been copyrighted to some large corporation, and I get zero credit for anything that I've written. I do get some money out of it, but the people with control over the distribution get more money.

But then you *are* getting credit- you are properly remunerated for your efforts.

 

[Andy Resnick]

One other reason why you want someone else to take the credit is that so you don't get blamed if something goes wrong. For example, if I write a program, and then five years later it destroys the world economy, it might be a very good thing that I'm totally anonymous whereas it's my boss's boss's boss's boss's that has to testify before Congress.

Most contracts have a 'hold harmless' clause which protects you in a case like this.

 

[Andy Resnick]

I never said that I wouldn't, but I'm still unsure of who would be cheated. Does the person that developed the hypothetical code have any real ownership of it? I thought the company would 'own' it and myself, being an employee, would be entitled to use it.

When a person develops a product under contract, the product belongs to the person/agency/corporation that paid the contract. If I write code and freely release it, it becomes 'public domain' and I have no legal claim on the work. There's lots of public domain code out there- and some of it has authorship tagged in it somewhere. It's good practice to leave that tag in place.

You *do* raise another interesting question- do you automatically have a right to use/own products your company produces? My guess is you can purchase it like any other private citizen, but you have no special claim on the product (i.e. you are not entitled to use it for free).

 

[twofish-quant]

When a person develops a product under contract, the product belongs to the person/agency/corporation that paid the contract.

Legally in the US, the copyright for work that is written under contract is owned by the author unless there is a contractual provision otherwise. If you work as an employee, then it's work for hire which is owned by the employer. Also, it's very rare in the software industry have a contract if you work as an W-2 employee.

In any case, this is really different in the academic situation, where credit for a work is something that you can't legitimately sell. Curiously this is also true for the movie industry where there are rather elaborate rules for director and producer credit.

If I write code and freely release it, it becomes 'public domain' and I have no legal claim on the work.

It works the other way, once a code becomes public domain, you can do anything you want with it. Legally you can take my code and claim ownership of it. If you don't want that to happen, then you can put into under one of several licenses.

There's lots of public domain code out there- and some of it has authorship tagged in it somewhere. It's good practice to leave that tag in place.

There's something called the 3-clause BSD license that requires people to include contributors. The 3-clause BSD license has been phased out in favor of a 2-clause BSD license. The problem with requiring people to keep a list of contributors is that after a few years, you end up with these huge lists for small amounts of code.

You *do* raise another interesting question- do you automatically have a right to use/own products your company produces?

Absolutely not if you are an employee. It's work-for-hire which means that legally I have no rights. This poses a problem because if I want to show future employers samples of work product, I can't.

My guess is you can purchase it like any other private citizen, but you have no special claim on the product (i.e. you are not entitled to use it for free).

Except that most software is not for sale, and with consumer software even if you can buy the software it's useless without source code.

 

[twofish-quant]

Most contracts have a 'hold harmless' clause which protects you in a case like this.

1) Except that most software development in the US is not done under contract. I've been working in commercial software for over a decade, and I've only had a contract for about a year of that time.

2) Also the contract is meaningless in the court of public opinion.

 

[twofish-quant]

But then you *are* getting credit- you are properly remunerated for your efforts.

It's not the same thing. Not to say that it's worse, but it's a different situation than academia. In particular, in academia, you can't sell credit. Also, whether the renumeration is proper depends on your view of what the value of renumeration should be. If you think that people that create work should get the most amount of money for their work product, then the current economic system just doesn't do that.

 

[Andy Resnick]

1) Except that most software development in the US is not done under contract. I've been working in commercial software for over a decade, and I've only had a contract for about a year of that time.

2) Also the contract is meaningless in the court of public opinion.

It's not the same thing. Not to say that it's worse, but it's a different situation than academia. In particular, in academia, you can't sell credit. Also, whether the renumeration is proper depends on your view of what the value of renumeration should be. If you think that people that create work should get the most amount of money for their work product, then the current economic system just doesn't do that.

I guess I'm a little confused by your comments- for example, where I was at NASA (working for a contractor), any and all products (including software, hardware test results, etc) were the property of the US government. I had to get permission to publish results, since I was using government property and getting paid under contract to carry out specific actions.

In the context of this thread, if a member of my team asked for my help (providing an algorithm, writing code, running a test, etc) and I gave it, that person acknowledged my contribution when he reported on *his* progress to the project manager. People who did not were quickly marginalized.

Salary is set as part of a legal contract which both parties enter into voluntarily. I have turned down jobs because the offered salary was too low. I also set my hourly consulting fee; how could I consider being paid an amount I decided to be unfair?

 

[creepypasta13]

I recall a few exams during my undergrad in which I could've cheated easily. But I chose not to. As a result, my transcript does in fact look worse, but I have no regrets

 

[twofish-quant]

For example, where I was at NASA (working for a contractor), any and all products (including software, hardware test results, etc) were the property of the US government. I had to get permission to publish results, since I was using government property and getting paid under contract to carry out specific actions.

There is a sourced wikipedia article on this topic

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright_status_of_work_by_the_U.S._government

In the context of this thread, if a member of my team asked for my help (providing an algorithm, writing code, running a test, etc) and I gave it, that person acknowledged my contribution when he reported on *his* progress to the project manager. People who did not were quickly marginalized.

Different groups have different conventions. In the companies that I've worked in, the team sinks or swims together so there isn't too much benefit in taking individual credit. If you are personally outstanding, but the team sinks, you are pretty much doomed anyway.

The big decisions come in when you decide which team you want to join and who you want to work with.

Salary is set as part of a legal contract which both parties enter into voluntarily.

In private software development, there are no contracts for W-2 employees in the US. You have to sign an NDA or perhaps a non-compete, but unless you are at senior level, you don't work under a contract if you are an employee. The salary gets set by the employer and once he has paid the salary that you are own for a two week period, they are legally free to change it. They don't because people will walk.

Contract development is a different situation. It's rather odd since people with contracts have less job security than W-2 employees.

I have turned down jobs because the offered salary was too low. I also set my hourly consulting fee; how could I consider being paid an amount I decided to be unfair?

Because you have to eat, and no one else will give you a better offer.