# I learned this new poker thing

ek said:
The only reason Doyle was playing ten deuce was because it was head up. Against one other person almost any two cards are playable. In a normal no limit ring game only maniacs and morons play T2.
I realize that Doyle wouldn't have played 10 2 if the table was full. I was just making a point to whozum who said the cards don't matter when they are actually a very important factor in full limit ring games (esp. low limits).

ek said:
Poker is only a game more about psychology at the high limits. At the lower limits poker is all about making the right mathematical plays and not going on tilt.
Sounds right.

ek said:
Why be careful playing online? Because you couldn't hack it online and busted out your bankroll because "it's rigged"? I always laugh at people like you. Play well against the B&M fish but can't hack it against the online crowd. Newsflash: Online players are better as a whole than B&M players. And how exactly do you cheat online? I have never cheated online, and I have never encountered a cheater. I cannot say the same thing about B&M.

Please, inform me of how exactly you can cheat online.
russ makes a good point. Do you know how much of an edge you can give yourself if you and two other friends sat on a table, opened up a chat window and told each other your cards?

russ_watters
Mentor
ek said:
Please, inform me of how exactly you can cheat online.
It is possible to rig an entire room - a handful of guys in a dorm room all join the same game and compare cards and co-ordinate betting.

One thing I'd like to know about playing online though is what percentage of people use software to calculate the odds for them and play based on odds alone.

The type of cheating that does go on falls into two categories of active cheating and passive cheating. Active cheating works just like it does in real life, where players work in teams to raise other players out of the pot or juice the pot for each other.

Passive cheating is generally harder to catch and is also known as collusion. This is when players share their cards with one another to help them make better choices when it comes to odds. For the most part, this cheating is normally not very beneficial to the cheaters to begin with except in few situations where the information may actually help. With more than 2 players in on it however, it may become a problem with 4 players are all sharing information.

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dduardo
Staff Emeritus
ek, just do a google search for "card counting poker" and you'll find plenty of tutorials. Here is an example:

http://pokermag.com/ManageArticle.asp?C=60&A=6587 [Broken]

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dduardo said:
ek, just do a google search for "card counting poker" and you'll find plenty of tutorials. Here is an example:

http://pokermag.com/ManageArticle.asp?C=60&A=6587 [Broken]

Is that site a joke?

I can't even discern what game they are talking about. 7 stud? Why would it matter whether high cards or low cards are exposed? All that matters is what cards you need are exposed.

There is no such thing as card counting in poker.

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russ_watters said:
It is possible to rig an entire room - a handful of guys in a dorm room all join the same game and compare cards and co-ordinate betting.

One thing I'd like to know about playing online though is what percentage of people use software to calculate the odds for them and play based on odds alone.

Can't have more than one player from one IP.

Online poker rooms monitor for collusion intensively.

And who cares about people that use odds calculators. If you need an odds calculator in the first place you're going to lose money whether you use it or not, simple as that.

If you have played online and lost your money and blamed it on "cheaters" or it being "rigged" then I suggest you look at your game in the mirror.

It is so much easier to cheat in live poker it's ridiculous. Online you have a clean game. Live you can't be guarenteed of that. You have colluders in both places, more often in B&M because there's no site monitoring their activities. Online you don't encounter shady dealers who will bottom deal, second deal and stack the deck. Online you cannot physically throw cards under the table like you can live. There is also no angle shooting online. Whether angling constitutes cheating is a matter of opinion though.

EL
Poker has grown alot here during the last couple of years. I know plenty of people earning their living on online poker. It is very popular to play during the nights when there are more americans playing... :tongue2:

russ_watters
Mentor
ek said:
Can't have more than one player from one IP.
On a college lan, everyone gets their own IP.
Online poker rooms monitor for collusion intensively.
Yes, I know. How successful they are, I don't know.

ek said:
Can't have more than one player from one IP.

Online poker rooms monitor for collusion intensively.
......AND?

It didn't even cross my mind that 3 players would be playing from the same computer.

ek said:
There is no such thing as card counting in poker.
You can count cards in any game, the only difference is how to do it and how much it will actually help.

Smurf said:
......AND?

It didn't even cross my mind that 3 players would be playing from the same computer.

I don't understand what you're saying in this post.

Smurf said:
You can count cards in any game, the only difference is how to do it and how much it will actually help.

You can't count cards in poker. You don't even play, how the hell would you know?

dduardo said:
ek, just do a google search for "card counting poker" and you'll find plenty of tutorials. Here is an example:

http://pokermag.com/ManageArticle.asp?C=60&A=6587 [Broken]
You can count the EXACT probability of getting each card in texas holdem or omaha. You don't need to count cards and I don't even know how you would do it. Unlike blackjack, high cards vs. low cards isn't a big deal in holdem because all you need to know is the prob. a certain card will come up and there's a very easy shortcut to do that in your head (it doesn't give the exact probability, but a close enough estimate).
dduardo, if you've played holdem before please give a simple example. It will make stuff so much easier.

russ_watters said:
One thing I'd like to know about playing online though is what percentage of people use software to calculate the odds for them and play based on odds alone.
When I first started, I made my own small program that calculates the probability of a "good" card showing up given how many good cards are left in the deck. It then plugs that into a formula given the pot size and outputs the max. bet I can call and be getting paid off (kindda like the 3 balls game). I used only this for a while to make decisions when I'm drawing and it turned out to be pretty successful. Now I learned a few shortcuts to do all that stuff in my head (pretty easy once you know the shortcuts) and I don't just go by the odds...there are other factors too that I didn't account for when first playing. BTW, do you think there's anything wrong with using a software that tells you the odds? It doesn't break the rules of the game and it's not a cheating program since it doesn't reveal any info you shouldn't be knowing. It's just a faster way to calculate stuff, but once you know the shortcuts you don't need it.

ek said:
And who cares about people that use odds calculators. If you need an odds calculator in the first place you're going to lose money whether you use it or not, simple as that.
You're kidding right? All the calculator does is calculate stuff you can calculate in your head (using shortcuts) a few seconds faster. I don't see why it's so bad. BTW ek, just curious...what limits do you play?

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Pengwuino
Gold Member
ek said:
You can't count cards in poker. You don't even play, how the hell would you know?

What he's trying to say is that if you know 3 people playing at a table, you can have 1 person be the actual player and the 3 otehr people are relaying what there cards were to you. With that, the 1 person who was chosen to really play will know what 6 other cards in the deck were actually played. This doesn't really help you out a whole lot, but there are definitly situations that it can help. For example, if you draw two 7's, its rather tricky to konw whether to go at it or not in texas hold em (especially no limit). Theres seven cards out there that in pairs, are higher then your pair of 7's. What your really hoping for (especially if 2 or 3 people stay in the pot with you) is a third seven to pop up to give you a good three of a kind. Now, if you have access to six more cards because of your friends and 2 of them happen to have crumby hands that include 7's, your most likely going to fold because now theres no way you will be able to make that three of a kind since the other two 7's are being thrown out by your friends.

This of course, is for online play. In a real casino, its much harder and you have cameras looken at everything you do. At the casino i play it, they have 2 cameras per table in the room.

Physics_wiz said:
You're kidding right? All the calculator does is calculate stuff you can calculate in your head (using shortcuts) a few seconds faster. I don't see why it's so bad. BTW ek, just curious...what limits do you play?

Not being able to do the calculations is a reflection of your skill in general. Good players do not need any odds calculator. And good players are the only ones making money. And odds calculators are not faster, they are actually a brutal time waster. I usually play between 5-10 tables at a time depending on the site. There is no way in hell I could do that if I was using some newbie odds calculator.

I play NL25 and NL50. As well as .5/1 Stud.

Pengwuino said:
What he's trying to say is that if you know 3 people playing at a table, you can have 1 person be the actual player and the 3 otehr people are relaying what there cards were to you. With that, the 1 person who was chosen to really play will know what 6 other cards in the deck were actually played. This doesn't really help you out a whole lot, but there are definitly situations that it can help. For example, if you draw two 7's, its rather tricky to konw whether to go at it or not in texas hold em (especially no limit). Theres seven cards out there that in pairs, are higher then your pair of 7's. What your really hoping for (especially if 2 or 3 people stay in the pot with you) is a third seven to pop up to give you a good three of a kind. Now, if you have access to six more cards because of your friends and 2 of them happen to have crumby hands that include 7's, your most likely going to fold because now theres no way you will be able to make that three of a kind since the other two 7's are being thrown out by your friends.

That is definitely not worth the trouble.

As for the play of 77. Flop or drop. Call for cheap, see a flop, if it doesn't come 7xx you're done with the hand. No cheating needed. What does knowing that your buddy folded a 7 do for you? Save you a quarter, 50 cents, a dollar maybe? Is that worth getting your whole bankroll frozen and ceased when you're busted for collusion? I think not.

Pengwuino
Gold Member
Oh well im not saying its a useful tactic. Im just explaining to how its actually possible to do a psuedo-card count.

actually, it may be useful! If you hold pocket J's or Q's and the flop has an A and a K, it'll be extremely helpful to know if your friends folded one of those A's or K's as a potential bluff from another person at the table becomes less likely to be the real deal. Of course, yes, like you said, its cheating, its not worth it.... it never is.

I was at the casino.. thursday... man, I played blackjack with $100 and i won$100 after a few hours. Swear to god though, scared me good when one of the security guards came over with just me and this other guy playen and stood around for about 10 minutes (and no, I dont count... i have trouble counting up my cards quickly so memorizing high-low is beyond me right now haha). I also felt like i was being followed when i left... never looked back to see however so i dunno... i think i was just getting those weird feelings you get when you actually do take some money from the casino.

ek said:
Not being able to do the calculations is a reflection of your skill in general. Good players do not need any odds calculator.

ek said:
And good players are the only ones making money.
Well I've played about 20k hands so far and I beat the game for about 5BB/100 hands. If I can't do the calculations in my head I'm a bad player, right? If I'm a bad player I won't be making money...eh? Something seems wrong...maybe doing the calculations in your head isn't a reflection of one's skill after all.

Pengwuino
Gold Member
$5 was the big blind? What was the small blind?$3?

Pengwuino said:
$5 was the big blind? What was the small blind?$3?

You talking about the 5BB/100 hands? BB stands for big bets ($.5 or$1)
I played in both .25/.50 and .5/1 limit tables. The first number is the small bet (also the big blind). The second number is the big bet. To get the small blind, just divide the small bet by 2 (sometimes it's a little different depending on the site). I know these are pretty low stakes but I still managed to make a few hundred in them.

Pengwuino
Gold Member
Oh pff, im getting blinds and bets confused. So you play with $.25 and$.5 small/big blinds... with $.5/$1 bets... ok ok i get it haha.

I play $1/$2 blinds, $2/$4 bets.

Physics_wiz said:
So, you can divide 5/47, 6/47, 4/47, etc...in your head right? Do you actually divide them in your head or you learned a few extremely easy shortcuts to calculate close estimates?

I tend not to draw to four and five outers.

But those odds can be approximated to 8.5:1, 7:1 and 11:1.

Let's start a physics forums room on partypoker.com. It will be for fun only. My sn is gravnewwworld

Pengwuino
Gold Member
gravenewworld said:
Let's start a physics forums room on partypoker.com. It will be for fun only. My sn is gravnewwworld

awesome, meet you there. sn is Veto1024

ek said:
I tend not to draw to four and five outers.

But those odds can be approximated to 8.5:1, 7:1 and 11:1.

Ok so you have them memorized...when I started I didn't have them memorized and I actually calculated them every time. Now I have them memorized but that doesn't mean that I was a "bad player" when I was actually calculating every hand. A bad player is one who doesn't know the odds, not one who uses a calculator to calculate them every hand.

Pengwuino
Gold Member
Hey i was wondering something...

What is that thing the dealers have on the right hand side where htey stack chips every-so-often.

I always see them put a chip there but i also see them drop chips into a bucket-type thing under the table that has a slot for the coins on the table.

I think you are refering to the money the house takes out of a pot. That is called the rake. The house take a percetage out of the pot. thats how the casinos get their money off of poker. If you sit down at the table and there are only 3 or 4 other players ask the dealer if you can get the rake lowered. Usually the pit boss will lower it if you just ask and there aren't that many players. The dealer also usually has a tip bin. When you get a good hand you are supposed to give the dealer a tip. The dealer puts the tip in the box, then at the end of the night, I assume all the tips are collected and split between all the dealers who worked that table.