How Does a Complete Loss of Self-Image Affect Fitness Decisions?

[FlexGunship]

I realized, recently, that I've been making fitness decisions almost exclusively based on numbers and statistics. I think it's because I actually, literally, cannot tell how I look when I see myself in the mirror. I pride myself in my rationalism, but I'm beginning to think I'm experiencing a similar condition to what anorexics may deal with.

For the last couple of months, I've been on a high calorie, high protein diet. I've been exercising and doing practical strength training. I can see my weight go up on the scale. I can see my body fat percentage change. But when I look in the mirror I have absolutely no idea how I compare to anyone else. I'm experiencing a unconscious resistance to over-rating myself coupled with an unconscious desire to feel pride.

Has anyone else experienced a complete loss of self-image?

 

[turbo]

Drop the specialized diet, and continue working out. Just put more effort into exerting yourself physically. My friends and I were used to haying, tossing bales, chucking firewood, etc and we did OK. One summer, my best friend and I built him and his wife a stone house using stones that we scavenged from old walls on his father's farm. We spent hours every day working on that house. We were both lean and light. Short skinny guys, but heaven help any creep that wanted to pick a fight with us. You don't have to be bulked up to be strong or capable.

 

[KingNothing]

Turbo, you made me laugh. Instant advice.

Flex - does this condition have anything to do with your user name, "Flex Gunship"?

 

[HeLiXe]

Well almost. I once tried to visualize myself like in the future and I had the most difficult time because I could not really identify what my self was in my mind. I started paying more attention to my thoughts and my "self" and I am doing better. I felt like crap when it happened tho...like I was moderately out of touch with reality. I blame it on abstract math Infinity over infinity foreverrrrrrrrrrrrrrr!

 

[Pythagorean]

If I thought it were a disorder, I'd say depersonalization disorder, but I wouldn't jump the gun. Dissociative symptoms are the third most common reported by the healthy public (next to anxiety and depression). It happens to most of us sooner or later.

THE DISSOCIATIVE DISORDERS: Rarely Considered and Underdiagnosed
Psychiatric Clinics of North America
Volume 21, Issue 3, 1 September 1998, Pages 637-648

 

[Tosh5457]

I realized, recently, that I've been making fitness decisions almost exclusively based on numbers and statistics. I think it's because I actually, literally, cannot tell how I look when I see myself in the mirror. I pride myself in my rationalism, but I'm beginning to think I'm experiencing a similar condition to what anorexics may deal with.

For the last couple of months, I've been on a high calorie, high protein diet. I've been exercising and doing practical strength training. I can see my weight go up on the scale. I can see my body fat percentage change. But when I look in the mirror I have absolutely no idea how I compare to anyone else. I'm experiencing a unconscious resistance to over-rating myself coupled with an unconscious desire to feel pride.

Has anyone else experienced a complete loss of self-image?

Do you mean you can't tell how you look physically, or you can't tell how you are as a person?

 

[FlexGunship]

Drop the specialized diet, and continue working out. Just put more effort into exerting yourself physically. My friends and I were used to haying, tossing bales, chucking firewood, etc and we did OK. One summer, my best friend and I built him and his wife a stone house using stones that we scavenged from old walls on his father's farm. We spent hours every day working on that house. We were both lean and light. Short skinny guys, but heaven help any creep that wanted to pick a fight with us. You don't have to be bulked up to be strong or capable.

Hah, thanks. I'm not particularly lean or light. I have some mass to me, and I have a fairly low body fat percentage. By any measure of numbers, I'm a classic "toned" "mesomorph."

Flex - does this condition have anything to do with your user name, "Flex Gunship"?

No, no, no... my user name was designed to simply be as bada$$ as possible. "The names Gunship. Flex Gunship. I'll have a vodka martini... with alligators."

If I thought it were a disorder, I'd say depersonalization disorder, but I wouldn't jump the gun. Dissociative symptoms are the third most common reported by the healthy public (next to anxiety and depression). It happens to most of us sooner or later.

THE DISSOCIATIVE DISORDERS: Rarely Considered and Underdiagnosed
Psychiatric Clinics of North America
Volume 21, Issue 3, 1 September 1998, Pages 637-648

See, I thought of that. I looked into it a little. But I guess I don't quite fit the description. Firstly, I don't experience much anxiety and I handle stress really well. I have no symptoms of depression (in general; everyone gets bummed out or discouraged sometimes). But my understanding of "depersonalization" disorder is that a person is unable to assess their own character subjectively. I have NO problem with that... I'm awesome!

Do you mean you can't tell how you look physically, or you can't tell how you are as a person?

Just physically. I have a good handle on my weaknesses as a person and (unlike some of my friends) I feel comfortable accepting my personality flaws and working on them actively.

 

[lisab]

Maybe it's because the change that results from working out comes so slow. If you were to transform in 30 minutes, I'm sure you'd notice.

My $0.02: you probably don't spend much time thinking about your physical self or memorizing what your parts look like -- i.e., you probably aren't the obsessive type.

 

[khemist]

Are you sure your eyes are open?

 

[FlexGunship]

Maybe it's because the change that results from working out comes so slow. If you were to transform in 30 minutes, I'm sure you'd notice.

My $0.02: you probably don't spend much time thinking about your physical self or memorizing what your parts look like -- i.e., you probably aren't the obsessive type.

I just mean it as a "snapshot" kind of thing. In a given moment, I look at myself and I don't know if I could accurately compare myself to the body-type of another individual. I catch myself thinking: "I wonder if I look like him."

Are you sure your eyes are open?

Yes, they seem to be open. Common problem, though... I'm sure.

 

[Willowz]

I'll add some psycho-babble.

It doesn't matter how much you work out. You'll just be doing it relative to other people (which isn't bad in itself but can go on forever). Do something for yourself that'll make you happy.

 

[FlexGunship]

I did an AWFUL job of explaining it, I guess. I don't have a self-esteem issue. I'm happy with my body, and I'm really pleased with the changes I'm making.

That being said... I couldn't tell you if my body looks like the scrawny guy riding the BMX bike without a shirt, or like James Bond-era Pierce Brosnan.

 

[khemist]

If you can't tell, just assume the Pierce Brosnan.

Do you have any female friends? You could always ask them. Or just walk around without a shirt and see if women look.

 

[Willowz]

But when I look in the mirror I have absolutely no idea how I compare to anyone else.
[...]
Has anyone else experienced a complete loss of self-image?

This doesn't make any sense. How are you supposto have a self-image when constantly comparing it to other people?
I guess your trouncing rationalism will make better sense of this.

 

[FlexGunship]

This doesn't make any sense. How are you supposto have a self-image when constantly comparing it to other people?
I guess your trouncing rationalism will make better sense of this.

Perhaps you can say, "Of those two drivers, this person is the better driver." More aptly, you might say, "I'm a better driver than that guy."

Perhaps you can say, "Of those two golfers, this person is the better golfer." More aptly, you might say, "I'm a better golfer than that guy."

With more nuance, you can say, "Of those two singers, she has more expression, but she has a better and more accurate range."

There are a series of standards and metrics by which you can measure a quality in another person and by applying those same metrics inward, you can judge yourself accordingly.

I know my weight, my body fat percentage, how much I can lift, how far I can run, and how tall I am. But I don't know how I stack up against the people I see. It's weird. When I go to the pool in my condo complex, I don't know if I'm better looking than those other guys, or worse. I can't imagine how other people perceive me. I have NO sense of self-image.

It's NOT a vanity thing. I swear. And it's not an issue of low self-esteem. I'm fine with how I look. I just don't know how it is that I look!

EDIT: As a side note, when I shop for clothes, I always bring a female (sister, girlfriend, girl just-friend). When I see myself in clothes, I can't imagine whether I look good or not. I know when clothes fit well, and I know when they're comfortable. But I can't step out of my body, pretend to see myself on the street, and then say: "Wow, that's a ****ty outfit on him."

 

[khemist]

EDIT: As a side note, when I shop for clothes, I always bring a female (sister, girlfriend, girl just-friend). When I see myself in clothes, I can't imagine whether I look good or not. I know when clothes fit well, and I know when they're comfortable. But I can't step out of my body, pretend to see myself on the street, and then say: "Wow, that's a ****ty outfit on him."

Congratulations, you are a man!

I find a better way to figure out how I look is to try to notice how people interact with me. Do women look at you? I know that I tend to look at good looking women, and women tend to look at good looking dudes...

 

[FlexGunship]

Congratulations, you are the man!

Fixed.

 

[zoobyshoe]

I know my weight, my body fat percentage, how much I can lift, how far I can run, and how tall I am. But I don't know how I stack up against the people I see. It's weird. When I go to the pool in my condo complex, I don't know if I'm better looking than those other guys, or worse. I can't imagine how other people perceive me. I have NO sense of self-image.

It's NOT a vanity thing. I swear. And it's not an issue of low self-esteem. I'm fine with how I look. I just don't know how it is that I look!

I have no idea what you're talking about. The main problem is that you keep flipping back and forth between the term "self-image" and how others perceive you.

I have an idea, now and then, about how some other individual perceives me, but the more of these outside perceptions you become aware of you realize you aren't universally seen the same way by all. My own idea of myself, likewise, is as fluid as my mood, and is not, of course, the same as other's perception of me. It sounds like you're supposing there can be some universal agreement about how you look. The best you can hope for in that regard is probably a Bell Curve.

Anorectics have a distorted self image, from what I understand, always perceiving themselves as too fat. So, you're not in the same boat as an anorectic.

 

[Proton Soup]

there is something among bodybuilders called "biggerexia". guys like Gregg Valentino that can never seem to get their arms big enough. every time they look in the mirror, they just see this skinny twerp looking back at them. maybe your self-image is stuck in some insecure prepubescent stage.

but can you objectively evaluate the physiques of others? maybe try cutting the head off a picture of yourself. then find a match for it somewhere. try depersonalizing your image and see if that makes a difference.

 

[Willowz]

It's pretty hard to believe that you have no self-image. Anyway, I'd like to give a definite diagnosis as to what is the matter, but I cant. So, I'll just shut up.

 

[Dembadon]

[...]

I know my weight, my body fat percentage, how much I can lift, how far I can run, and how tall I am. [...]

Quantitative assessment.

[...]
But I don't know how I stack up against the people I see. It's weird. When I go to the pool in my condo complex, I don't know if I'm better looking than those other guys, or worse. I can't imagine how other people perceive me. I have NO sense of self-image.

It's NOT a vanity thing. I swear. And it's not an issue of low self-esteem. I'm fine with how I look. I just don't know how it is that I look!

EDIT: As a side note, when I shop for clothes, I always bring a female (sister, girlfriend, girl just-friend). When I see myself in clothes, I can't imagine whether I look good or not. I know when clothes fit well, and I know when they're comfortable. But I can't step out of my body, pretend to see myself on the street, and then say: "Wow, that's a ****ty outfit on him."

Qualitative assessment.

-------------

I think it's going to be difficult for you to nail-down some criteria for a qualitative self-assessment. Appearances (in the sense to which you're referring) are subjective in nature, and I don't see a way around this. I think you're going to have to rely on the opinions of friends and strangers.

 

[rhody]

I have got to hand it to you Flex, you have a bunch of us here stumped including me, you are not punking us now are you ?

As a side note, when I shop for clothes, I always bring a female (sister, girlfriend, girl just-friend). When I see myself in clothes, I can't imagine whether I look good or not. I know when clothes fit well, and I know when they're comfortable. But I can't step out of my body, pretend to see myself on the street, and then say: "Wow, that's a ****ty outfit on him."

Does the feeling come and go ? Free floating anxiety masking a deeper problem perhaps ? Do you want to feel invisible for some unknown reason. You seem to have us all stumped, that is for sure.

Rhody...

 

[muffin.love]

From what I read, it is like you are looking for something/someone to reference yourself against so you can then decide whereabouts on the "image meter" you are. You dedicate time and effort in creating a good self image but without recognition in some way of what you look like, you find it hard to see how you stack up in the public eye. To be honest, friends and family members will always say you look "fine/great" in most cases and so you can never be quite sure of how biased they are being.
As shallow as it may sound, perhaps a way to see if you are "appealing" or not is by letting yourself be rated by anonymous people. You can do this discreetly by perhaps joining a dating site, you don't even have to put your real details down but perhaps put up a photo that you think reflects you well and see what kind of response you get. Just a suggestion.
However, from the sounds that you make effort in keeping your appearance by working out and taking advice when it comes to fashion, you are on the right lines..and as you say, u don't have a problem with your self image, however you just need to believe in yourself a little more perhaps and be more positive. Nothing wrong to sometimes to say to yourself (in secret) "yea man... looking sweet today".

 

[Chi Meson]

No, no, no... my user name was designed to simply be as bada$$ as possible. "The names Gunship. Flex Gunship. I'll have a vodka martini... with alligators."

Reminds me of http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RFHlJ2voJHY"

 

[KingNothing]

Flex - I figured out what is going on. I would say there's actually parasitic botfly larvae that are eating away at your fusiform gyrus part of the brain, causing your inability to recognize and compare your body to others.

Don't worry, they'll probably eat their way out eventually.

 

[zoobyshoe]

there is something among bodybuilders called "biggerexia". guys like Gregg Valentino that can never seem to get their arms big enough. every time they look in the mirror, they just see this skinny twerp looking back at them.

I hadn't heard of this, but I believe it. It would explain some of the grotesquely over-muscled body builders I've seen.

 

[dydxforsn]

Is it a question of lack of introspection as a whole or is it just physical looks?

It may not be relevant but introspection is a very important aspect of getting better at just... living I guess..

 

[turbo]

Fixating on "image" is self-destructive and can be debilitating, IMO. I had put on a few pounds after the startup phase of our new paper machine (lots of sitting in the control room when we got that beast settled down) and wanted to trim down, so I joined a local gym that was open 24/7 and that was incidentally responsible for training many world-class powerlifters. I started training (many reps with reasonable weights) and the owner offered to train me as a powerlifter, like my young female friend who captured lots of US and world titles.

I really wasn't interested in that, but after a month or so, I was back to the fitness level that I'd had back when my friend and I were passing around ~100# stones to build his house. I felt better, and I could tackle about any physical task that even much larger guys would take on. Just feeling better was a huge plus. I looked better, too, though I never bulked up much. There was a game warden that used to show up in the early morning hours when I did, and he was lean and trim, and he could put me to shame with dumbbell weights and reps. I'd never want to tangle with that guy!

 

[lisab]

To compare yourself against other males, you first have to...well, basically size them up and judge them. Do you feel uncomfortable doing that?

 

[Willowz]

I think this may be a troll thread. Cuz this just all adds up to a pissing contest.

 

[lisab]

I think this may be a troll thread. Cuz this just all adds up to a pissing contest.

Nah, Flex isn't a troll.

 

[Willowz]

Nah, Flex isn't a troll.

Then, if I may psycho-babble a bit more (I can't shut up as I intended to, well oh well)... It may be that someone is bullgarbageting themselves. Otherwise were going to be doing the BS'ing here.

 

[khemist]

Then, if I may psycho-babble a bit more (I can't shut up as I intended to, well oh well)... It may be that someone is bullgarbageting themselves. Otherwise were going to be doing the BS'ing here.

This thread does seem a little ridiculous.

 

[lisab]

Then, if I may psycho-babble a bit more (I can't shut up as I intended to, well oh well)... It may be that someone is bullgarbageting themselves. Otherwise were going to be doing the BS'ing here.

I say, BS away! It is GD, after all !

 

[FlexGunship]

It wasn't meant to be a troll thread. To be honest, no one seemed to capture that weird feeling I get when I'm trying to figure out where I fit in the hierarchy of men. Maybe it's a seriously isolated thing. That's why I posed it as a question: "does anyone have a similar experience?" The answer seems to be a resounding: no. We can just drop it.

Maybe, and I pose this as a challenge, no one here has an accurate self-image. Instead, each of you has constructed a persistent snapshot of yourself and objective assessment escapes you; especially as you age and change.

Haven't you ever spent 10 minutes trying to get your hair to look right for an important interview. You lean in close to the mirror, adjusting a few hairs here and there. And just as you think you've perfected it, you back away from the mirror and look at yourself as a whole and think "****, I should just start over."

It's the dichotomy that gets me, but apparently no one else here has experienced it. Think about this seriously: if someone arranged 100 members of your gender in order of relative attractiveness (as computed as a weighted average of athletic fitness and physically appealing features) and told you "just jump in your spot." Could you do it?

EDIT: Or an alternative scheme: if people were arranged by ratio of body fat to overall weight, could you find your place then? Even if you knew EXACTLY what your ratio of body fat to weight was; could you do it?

 

[turbo]

I say, BS away! It is GD, after all !

The little girl that used to climb up on my lap when I visited her parents became the US junior powerlifting champion, and the world junior powerlifting champion and then moved on to adult titles. She trained at the gym I joined. I'd gladly spot her, but could never approach her lifts. She had been a tiny girl, but ended up built like a brick (no image-problems there, just performance). Even today, if I bump into her someplace, I have to brace for impact because the bear-hugs are killer. She is no longer in training, and works as an EMT, but she is still really solid.

 

[Pythagorean]

See, I thought of that. I looked into it a little. But I guess I don't quite fit the description. Firstly, I don't experience much anxiety and I handle stress really well. I have no symptoms of depression (in general; everyone gets bummed out or discouraged sometimes). But my understanding of "depersonalization" disorder is that a person is unable to assess their own character subjectively. I have NO problem with that... I'm awesome!

I should clarify, my wording was sloppy. It sounds to me like you're experiencing depersonalization. Not that you have depersonalization disorder. It's a very common experience even without the mental disorder.

And no, character has nothing to do with it, it's mostly about body. Read the DSM criteria:

http://www.behavenet.com/capsules/disorders/depersdis.htm

but remember, this is the disorder being described. A disorder is characterized mostly by it's destructive (or at least anti-productive) nature. Most disorders have this criteria (it's item C. for Depersonalization):

"C. The depersonalization causes clinically significant distress or impairment in social, occupational, or other important areas of functioning."

so that's kind of the dividing line between it being a disorder, or just a symptom.

Anecdotally, I have had the symptom of depersonalization several times, but I do not have the disorder because the symptoms do not cause me distress or interfere with my social function in an obvious way, likely because the symptoms I experience are much milder (and less common) than they are for someone with the disorder.

In fact, I think many people experience depersonalization more commonly nowadays in the communication/information age (out of curiousity, where do you get your body-building info? Do you have a local community or do you use the internet?) but that's overly speculative.

 

[FlexGunship]

In fact, I think many people experience depersonalization more commonly nowadays in the communication/information age (out of curiousity, where do you get your body-building info? Do you have a local community or do you use the internet?) but that's overly speculative.

I'm still not sure that lines up with what I experience. I don't feel "detached" from my body.

I didn't mean to imply I'm doing anybody building. That seems to have started as a side story from another forum member and got carried forward. I simply changed my diet and adopted a more active lifestyle. I'm fine with how I look; those were really just side notes and not meant to significantly direct the narrative (for the purposes of letting thread-readers know that I'm not experiencing self-loathing, depression, or anything of the sort).

But I'm dead serious when I say, I would have to see a photograph of myself next to a person (or stand in the mirror with them) to be able to adequately judge my appearance compared to theirs.

My first realization came after a party a couple of years ago. I have a friend, and I always considered us "roughly the same size." But then, after the party, some pictures were circulating online, and I saw us next to each other, and he was easily 20lbs heavier than me; noticeably thicker. Get it? The self-image I was carrying around in my head was WAY off.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Has anyone else experienced a complete loss of self-image?

Vampires.

Think about it.

 

[turbo]

Vampires.

Think about it.

Good one!

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Good one!

I'm thinking we should call him CountGunship.

 

[turbo]

I'm thinking we should call him CountGunship.

Vlad Gunship would be OK, too.

 

[Math Is Hard]

Staring at yourself in the mirror too long is like saying a word over and over until it loses meaning.

IMHOLO (in my humble old lady opinion): I think as long as you are healthy, why all the self-examination and comparison? If you have two strong legs to get you around and two strong arms to help yourself and others, a reliable brain, good eyesight and hearing, and all of the other typical blessings of youth, then you have a perfect body. Measure yourself by what you can do with what you have, rather than just what you have.

Enough mirror contemplating. Go help the elderly neighbor with the bad knees get her groceries up the stairs, and help a slow youngster with math homework, and score yourself 5 stars for awesomeness.

 

[turbo]

Staring at yourself in the mirror too long is like saying a word over and over until it loses meaning.

IMHOLO (in my humble old lady opinion): I think as long as you are healthy, why all the self-examination and comparison? If you have two strong legs to get you around and two strong arms to help yourself and others, a reliable brain, good eyesight and hearing, and all of the other typical blessings of youth, then you have a perfect body. Measure yourself by what you can do with what you have, rather than just what you have.

Enough mirror contemplating. Go help the elderly neighbor with the bad knees get her groceries up the stairs, and help a slow youngster with math homework, and score yourself 5 stars for awesomeness.

Great!

 

[Pythagorean]

But I'm dead serious when I say, I would have to see a photograph of myself next to a person (or stand in the mirror with them) to be able to adequately judge my appearance compared to theirs.

Wait a minute, isn't that completely normal? We only have other humans to compare to.

 

[FlexGunship]

Staring at yourself in the mirror too long is like saying a word over and over until it loses meaning.

IMHOLO (in my humble old lady opinion): I think as long as you are healthy, why all the self-examination and comparison? If you have two strong legs to get you around and two strong arms to help yourself and others, a reliable brain, good eyesight and hearing, and all of the other typical blessings of youth, then you have a perfect body. Measure yourself by what you can do with what you have, rather than just what you have.

Enough mirror contemplating. Go help the elderly neighbor with the bad knees get her groceries up the stairs, and help a slow youngster with math homework, and score yourself 5 stars for awesomeness.

Sigh, I retire my question. This wasn't really supposed to be philosophical. I appreciate what you're saying, but I do my volunteer work and I help out my elderly biker neighbors when they go astray with their technology.

It just a dose of cognitive dissonance. I was thinking that it was a universal neural blind spot, but no one seems to know what I'm talking about.

I officially declare the thread over.

Now we can finally discuss awesome alternative names: I'm digging Count Gunship; I love capes. Vlad Gunship isn't so hot. I had a good friend in college named Vlad and let me tell you: he owns that name.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Flex the Impaler?

 

[FlexGunship]

Flex the Impaler?

Wouldn't be the first time I had a nickname similar to that.

"Impaler?! I 'ardly know 'er!"

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Wouldn't be the first time I had a nickname similar to that.

"Impaler?! I 'ardly know 'er!"

Uh, that wasn't quite what I meant but I'll go with that.

 

[Dembadon]

[...]

Now we can finally discuss awesome alternative names: I'm digging Count Gunship; I love capes. Vlad Gunship isn't so hot. I had a good friend in college named Vlad and let me tell you: he owns that name.

You can start jotting down some manly-sounding prefixes and see how they sound with "Gunship."

ThorGunship
TitanGunship
MaxGunship
etc.

Try http://www.angelfire.com/wy/svenskildbiter/Viking/viknams3.html" . You can parse the names and look for one that would sound good in front of, or after, "Gunship."

You could also try, as Ivan suggested, "FlexThe<insert badass title here>." (e.g. FlexTheImpaler, FlexTheConqueror)