I If gravity is not a force, what is holding us down?

sawer
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OK. Gravity is not a force it is a contraction or curvature of space.
I was free-falling and now I hit the ground. Why don't I float through the universe, or go upward instead of still trying to go downward.
Because I hit the ground, and now there is no force(like gravity) and my free-falling must be stopped. What is holding us down?
 
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sawer said:
Gravity is not a force it is a contraction or curvature of space.
No - it's a curvature of spacetime. The distinction is important.
sawer said:
What is holding us down?
The point about gravity as spacetime curvature is that "things travel in a straight line unless acted on by a force" is no longer true. The correct statement is that "things travel along geodesics unless acted on by a force", and the available geodesics near Earth (or, more precisely, their spatial components) all curve towards the planet and eventually intersect it (unless you can jump upwards at about 11km/s or more). So no force is needed to hold you down - a force is only needed to stop you falling, and that's what the floor provides.
 
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sawer said:
now there is no force(like gravity) and my free-falling must be stopped
Imagine that you and I are standing on the earth’s equator, one meter apart. Now we both start walking due north. As we’re moving north we will find ourselves pressed closer and closer to one another until we collide at the north pole. That’s curvature at work; the Earth is not flat so our initially parallel paths converge and eventually intersect.

The “force” that presses us down against the surface of the Earth is similarly a curvature effect: our path through spacetime is not parallel to the path of the earth’s surface.
 
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Ibix said:
No - it's a curvature of spacetime. The distinction is important.

The point about gravity as spacetime curvature is that "things travel in a straight line unless acted on by a force" is no longer true. The correct statement is that "things travel along geodesics unless acted on by a force", and the available geodesics near Earth (or, more precisely, their spatial components) all curve towards the planet and eventually intersect it (unless you can jump upwards at about 11km/s or more). So no force is needed to hold you down - a force is only needed to stop you falling, and that's what the floor provides.
Thanks for answer. There is just one thing that I can not imagine is as you said it is geodesic, but I imagine even it is geodesic, it is line, why does it have to be just one way on the geodesic, even my free falling stopped? I was in the space something pushed me, I felt and I hit the ground. But still I am trying to go same way. I think I can not imagine the "one way" thing.
 
Nugatory said:
Imagine that you and I are standing on the earth’s equator, one meter apart. Now we both start walking due north. As we’re moving north we will find ourselves pressed closer and closer to one another until we collide at the north pole. That’s curvature at work; the Earth is not flat so our initially parallel paths converge and eventually intersect.

The “force” that presses us down against the surface of the Earth is similarly a curvature effect: our path through spacetime is not parallel to the path of the earth’s surface.
OK. Thank you. How can this analogy(walking due north) be adapted to a man standing on the ground and felt a force??
 
Dale said:
Nothing. You are being pushed upwards by the ground, not held down by anything. The surface of the Earth accelerates continually upwards as measured by accelerometers. We are pushed up along with it

Here is an Insights I wrote explaining this topic in some detail:

https://www.physicsforums.com/insights/understanding-general-relativity-view-gravity-earth/
I think, "pushing upwards by the ground" is not pushing or cause by any force. Am I right? This pushing effect must be result of curvature. Right?
 
sawer said:
Thanks for answer. There is just one thing that I can not imagine is as you said it is geodesic, but I imagine even it is geodesic, it is line, why does it have to be just one way on the geodesic, even my free falling stopped? I was in the space something pushed me, I felt and I hit the ground. But still I am trying to go same way. I think I can not imagine the "one way" thing.
It isn't easy to imagine the effect of curved spacetime being equivalent to a force. But, ultimately, that is what results from the laws of physics in general relativity: the curved spacetime near the Earth causes an acceleration towards the centre of the Earth - almost exactly as a force would.

When you are off the ground, you fall towards the ground (that's a natural path, or geodesic). When you hit the ground, there is a real force from the ground that stops you and prevents you falling any further.
 
Ibix said:
No - it's a curvature of spacetime. The distinction is important.

The point about gravity as spacetime curvature is that "things travel in a straight line unless acted on by a force" is no longer true. The correct statement is that "things travel along geodesics unless acted on by a force", and the available geodesics near Earth (or, more precisely, their spatial components) all curve towards the planet and eventually intersect it (unless you can jump upwards at about 11km/s or more). So no force is needed to hold you down - a force is only needed to stop you falling, and that's what the floor provides.
Maybe it's important to stress that these forces are of course not gravitational but mostly electromagnetic.

Concerning the debate, whether gravity is a "force" or not, it's a pretty semantic discussion. It depends on your point of view. Most physicists follow the idea by Einstein that the gravitational interaction is geometrized by General Relativity Theory, i.e., it's the spacetime structure itself that gets dynamical and that gravitational interactions are entirely due to the geometry of spacetime.

Other physicists have a somewhat different point of view and interpret the gravitational interaction as an interaction as all the others, described by a gauge theory, i.e., it is a making a global symmetry local by introducing a gauge field and introducing covariant derivatives via a corresponding connection.

What, however, makes gravitation distinct from the other fundamental interactions (electroweak and strong interactions, described by local gauge theories, where the gauge group acts in an abstract field space) is that what's "gauged" here is indeed the Poincare symmetry of the special-relativistic space-time model (flat Minkowski space), and this pretty formal procedure leads to a theory, which is very closely related to General Relativity. It's extending General Relativity, which assumes that the spacetime model is that of a Lorentzian manifold (i.e., a pseudo-Riemannian manifold with a fundamental form of signature (1,3) or equivalently (3,1) with the uniquely determined metric-compatible connection), to a socalled Einstein-Cartan manifold, where the connection has torsion and is related to the spin of the matter fields. On the macroscopic level, where the only relevant far-distant interaction despite gravity is the electromagnetic interaction, one ends up with a torsion-free connection, i.e., the same spacetime model as GR, and this then can of course immediately reinterpreted as providing the dynamical spacetime metric and thus geometrizing gravity.

One should, however, always be aware of the fact that the corresponding equivalence between inertial forces (i.e., forces occurring due to the use of an accelerating reference frame) is strictly true only locally, i.e., in a sufficiently small space-time region around an arbitrary point in spacetime, where you always can introduce an inertial frame. It's realized by some free-falling non-rotating object. E.g., the Internation Space Station is pretty close to such a local inertial reference frame, and indeed, over a small enough region there are (nearly) no gravitational effects. The astronauts operate in "weightlessness". If, however, you investigate the motion of (extended) bodies within such a free-falling reference frame with more accuracy, you'll realize that the gravitational field is not completely "transformed" away, but that there are still tidal forces left. Mathematically that's pretty obvious: Because at presence of matter spacetime gets a non-vanishing curvature tensor, and this curvature tensor is non-zero independently of the choice of your reference frame (simply because tensors and tensor fields are independent of the choice of a reference frame or coordinates and thus describe observables in GR). So you cannot in any way choose a reference frame, where there are no gravitaional interactions ("tidal forces" cannot be "gauged away").
 
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  • #10
sawer said:
OK. Thank you. How can this analogy(walking due north) be adapted to a man standing on the ground and felt a force??
Even when you are standing still in space, you can think of yourself as moving in spacetime: you are moving into the future at the rate of one second per second (this moving in spacetime" notion has some serious imitations, but it's good enough for present purposes). Just as moving in a straight line due north shoves you into the space occupied by your neighbor doing the same thing, when standing still on Earth your motion through spacetime is trying to shove you into the surface of the earth. The upwards force on your feet is the Earth resisting; if ground weren't there and getting in the way you would continue to move down towards the center of the earth.

You might try searchnig ths forum for the excellent and frequently posted video made by our member @A.T.
 
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  • #11
sawer said:
How can this analogy(walking due north) be adapted to a man standing on the ground and felt a force??
What they have in common is that they are both the result of geometry. 3D spatial curvature in one case and 4D spacetime curvature in the other.
 
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  • #12
sawer said:
OK. Gravity is not a force it is a contraction or curvature of space.
I was free-falling and now I hit the ground. Why don't I float through the universe, or go upward instead of still trying to go downward.
Because I hit the ground, and now there is no force(like gravity) and my free-falling must be stopped. What is holding us down?

Someone may have already answered this question, but to understand how gravity can act like a force, you need to think in terms of curved spaceTIME, not just curved space.

From the point of view of Special and General Relativity, we aren't moving through just space, we're moving through spaceTIME. Even if you are completely "still", you're still moving along the time axis. You pass through Saturday, then Sunday, etc.

Simplifying the discussion by just considering one space axis, the x-axis, you can plot your location as a point in the x-t plane. With each beat of your heart, you are at a different t-location, whether or not your are stationary (in the sense of being at a constant x-location).

So without gravity, you would have Earth at "rest" at a constant x-location, and you at "rest" at a constant x-location, and the plot of your trajectories through spacetime would look like two straight parallel lines oriented in the t-direction, never getting closer.

Now add spacetime curvature, and you have another effect: When spacetime is curved, inertial paths (that is, paths of objects that have no forces acting on them besides gravity) that start off parallel to each other do not remain parallel. So taking into account gravity/spacetime-curvature, the plots of your trajectory and that of the Earth don't remain parallel, they bend towards each other and eventually intersect.

So it's exactly analogous to travel along the surface of the Earth. If you have two travelers that start at the equator and travel North, their paths start off parallel (since they are both traveling in the same direction). But as they get closer and closer to the North Pole, their paths bend toward each other, until they finally meet at the North Pole.
 
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  • #13
sawer said:
I think, "pushing upwards by the ground" is not pushing or cause by any force. Am I right? This pushing effect must be result of curvature. Right?
The pushing upwards by the ground is just a plain vanilla electromagnetic interaction. The same thing that you use when you lift a box or lean on a wall. Your feet push down on the ground and the ground pushes up on your feet.

The curvature of space-time is what makes it so that you stay in what seems like the same place despite the constant acceleration produced by this unbalanced force on your body.
 
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  • #14
sawer said:
OK. Gravity is not a force it is a contraction or curvature of space.
I was free-falling and now I hit the ground. Why don't I float through the universe, or go upward instead of still trying to go downward.
Because I hit the ground, and now there is no force(like gravity) and my free-falling must be stopped. What is holding us down?
This might help:

 
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  • #15
You are traveling through curved spaceTIME, as has been stressed(capitalization mine). Curved spacetime feels like gravity. Go somewhere where there's no curved spacetime and you won't be falling down.
 
  • #16
EPR said:
Curved spacetime feels like gravity.
It's not gravity that you feel. What you feel is the crunch when the ground comes up and hits you in the face.
 
  • #17
It's up to him to decide if he's falling down or if the Earth is rising up and is hitting him in the face.
 
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  • #18
sawer said:
I think, "pushing upwards by the ground" is not pushing or cause by any force. Am I right? This pushing effect must be result of curvature. Right?
No, the pushing upwards is caused by the normal force which pushes upwards in the bottom of your feet. The curvature just keeps the surface of the Earth from expanding.

Please read the link I gave you. It explains this concept well.
 
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  • #19
Dale said:
Nothing. You are being pushed upwards by the ground, not held down by anything. The surface of the Earth accelerates continually upwards as measured by accelerometers. We are pushed up along with it

Here is an Insights I wrote explaining this topic in some detail:

https://www.physicsforums.com/insights/understanding-general-relativity-view-gravity-earth/
If the surface of the Earth is accelerating, wouldn't that result in the expansion of the Earth's crust? Granted, according to Newtonian gravity, the Earth does slightly accelerate towards a falling object, but not by much (maybe like 0.000001% and not detectable by an accelerometer, or at least the ones available on amazon), and I don't think that was the type of acceleration you were referring to.

Anyway, I have heard the explanations of how mass bends spacetime, creating a geodesic path for objects to move through, but what I don't get is how this actually creates gravity. What is actually pushing the object to move through the path in the first place? I'm not saying that the geodesic theory is "wrong", I am just saying the way its explained doesn't really make sense to me. Like why does it even move to begin with, is it pushed by time? How does time cause a push in the first place?

Maybe this is an explanation of why the object actually moves along the given path. Usually objects move because of some kind of pressure difference. Unfortunately I don't know the maths described here, but it seems whatever this is that is being described here, could lead to a more explainable axiom than just the usual explanation of a stationary object with no tangible forces acting on it suddenly deciding to move on a path.
What, however, makes gravitation distinct from the other fundamental interactions (electroweak and strong interactions, described by local gauge theories, where the gauge group acts in an abstract field space) is that what's "gauged" here is indeed the Poincare symmetry of the special-relativistic space-time model (flat Minkowski space), and this pretty formal procedure leads to a theory, which is very closely related to General Relativity. It's extending General Relativity, which assumes that the spacetime model is that of a Lorentzian manifold (i.e., a pseudo-Riemannian manifold with a fundamental form of signature (1,3) or equivalently (3,1) with the uniquely determined metric-compatible connection), to a socalled Einstein-Cartan manifold, where the connection has torsion and is related to the spin of the matter fields. On the macroscopic level, where the only relevant far-distant interaction despite gravity is the electromagnetic interaction, one ends up with a torsion-free connection, i.e., the same spacetime model as GR, and this then can of course immediately reinterpreted as providing the dynamical spacetime metric and thus geometrizing gravity.
 
  • #20
paradisePhysicist said:
If the surface of the Earth is accelerating, wouldn't that result in the expansion of the Earth's crust?
No. The curvature of space-time is what allows the surface of the Earth to remain stationary (against a particular reasonable choice of coordinates) in spite of its non-zero proper acceleration.
 
  • #21
paradisePhysicist said:
If the surface of the Earth is accelerating, wouldn't that result in the expansion of the Earth's crust?
In flat spacetime, yes. In curved spacetime it depends in general, but in this case no.
 
  • #22
jbriggs444 said:
No. The curvature of space-time is what allows the surface of the Earth to remain stationary (against a particular reasonable choice of coordinates) in spite of its non-zero proper acceleration.
Hmm. Idk, sounds confusing.

stevendaryl said:
From the point of view of Special and General Relativity, we aren't moving through just space, we're moving through spaceTIME. Even if you are completely "still", you're still moving along the time axis. You pass through Saturday, then Sunday, etc.
Saturday and sunday are human constructs. In real life there is just a planet orbitting the sun at a particular location, this location determines the calendar. The location is caused by gravity. Thus this particular segment of text seems like explaining gravity by gravity (tautology.)
 
  • #23
paradisePhysicist said:
Idk, sounds confusing.
Not really, once you start to get your head round the maths.
 
  • #24
paradisePhysicist said:
Hmm. Idk, sounds confusing.
Yes. Curved space is tough to grasp. Popularizations such as "Sphereland" may help. Curved space-time is worse. But that's General Relativity for you. Built on differential geometry -- not for the faint of heart.
 
  • #25
Ibix said:
Not really, once you start to get your head round the maths.
Even if I understood the maths (which I do not) I would at least like to see some kind of physical simulation or explanation. I have seen the trampoline one which seems like a tautotology (using gravity to prove gravity.)

jbriggs444 said:
Yes. Curved space is tough to grasp. Popularizations such as "Sphereland" may help. Curved space-time is worse. But that's General Relativity for you. Built on differential geometry -- not for the faint of heart.
Alright I will watch this Sphereland movie, looks interesting.
 
  • #26
paradisePhysicist said:
Even if I understood the maths (which I do not) I would at least like to see some kind of physical simulation or explanation. I have seen the trampoline one which seems like a tautotology (using gravity to prove gravity.)Alright I will watch this Sphereland movie, looks interesting.
I was actually thinking of the book. It has been so long since I read it that I do not remember whether it was Flatland or Sphereland. But it got me to the point where I could wrap my head around curved space and higher dimensional geometries.
 
  • #27
paradisePhysicist said:
I have seen the trampoline one which seems like a tautotology (using gravity to prove gravity.)
It is tautological. This by @A.T. is much better:
 
  • #28
paradisePhysicist said:
I would at least like to see some kind of physical simulation or explanation. I have seen the trampoline one which seems like a tautotology (using gravity to prove gravity.)
The trampoline analogy is horribly misleading because it shows curved space, as opposed to curved spacetime. The video linked in post 14 of this thread by our own @A.T. is what you're looking for.
 
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  • #29
Nugatory said:
The video linked in post 14 of this thread by our own @A.T. is what you're looking for.
And I went and searched the whole site for that...
 
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  • #30
Nugatory said:
The trampoline analogy is horribly misleading because it shows curved space, as opposed to curved spacetime.

This is a bit of a non-issue, don't you think?
 
  • #31
ergospherical said:
This is a bit of a non-issue, don't you think?
No, it's a very important issue, as shown in many previous discussions here on PF of this very point.

The video by @A.T. is a much better way of understanding what is going on.
 
  • #32
Don't think it's important, because it's literally just showing a curved space. Bit hard to visualise curvature and geodesics using anything other than one or two dimensional surfaces, haha.
 
  • #33
ergospherical said:
This is a bit of a non-issue, don't you think?
The usual problem is that people ask "if gravity is curved space then I can see why moving objects follow curved paths but why do stationary objects start moving?". The answer, of course, is that Newtonian gravity is what you get when you neglect everything the trampoline diagram is showing you and only use the stuff you can't embed in a Euclidean space. That makes it a bit hard to bridge the gap between "look at this pretty diagram, you understand everything now don't you" and the actual reality of the physics.
 
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  • #34
paradisePhysicist said:
Saturday and sunday are human constructs.
The fact that we call them that is a human construct, but the fact that Saturday is a different point on spacetime than Sunday is part of the nature of the universe (as we currently understand it; we could always be wrong…)

paradisePhysicist said:
In real life there is just a planet orbitting the sun at a particular location, this location determines the calendar.

Orbiting means that its location changes as a function of time.

paradisePhysicist said:
The location is caused by gravity. Thus this particular segment of text seems like explaining gravity by gravity (tautology.)
The location is caused by gravity? That makes no sense. In the absence of gravity, you still have time, and you still have space. If you do nothing at all, you are still moving in time.

As I said, in the absence of gravity, the paths through spacetime of two drifting objects that start off parallel will remain parallel. Curvature causes initially parallel paths to converge or diverge. An object falling is a specific example.

If you step off a cliff, initially you and the Earth are following parallel trajectories through spacetime. But curvature results in your spacetime paths bending towards each other.
 
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  • #35
paradisePhysicist said:
If the surface of the Earth is accelerating, wouldn't that result in the expansion of the Earth's crust?
If spacetime were flat, then yes. It is the curvature of spacetime that allows different parts of the Earth to be continually accelerating away from each other without getting further away from each other.
paradisePhysicist said:
I'm not saying that the geodesic theory is "wrong", I am just saying the way its explained doesn't really make sense to me.
Did you read the link I cited earlier? I really tried to walk through the origin of these concepts. No math is involved, but it is a verbal description of the actual theory and not a handwaving “rubber sheet” thing.
 
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  • #36
I particularly like the following video:
 
  • #37
paradisePhysicist said:
Anyway, I have heard the explanations of how mass bends spacetime, creating a geodesic path for objects to move through, but what I don't get is how this actually creates gravity. What is actually pushing the object to move through the path in the first place?
Have you studied Newton’s laws? Objects do not need a push to move. They need a push to change their velocity. No force is required for an object to continue at constant velocity.

The point that you are making is that curvature doesn’t create motion, it only bends it. But every object already has motion through spacetime, so that’s good enough.
 
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  • #38
Gaussian97 said:
I particularly like the following video:

There are some nice diagrams around 7 minutes, but it seems to me like there's a lot of fluff apart from that. I did skip quite ruthlessly, so possible I'm missing something.
 
  • #39
jbriggs444 said:
I was actually thinking of the book. It has been so long since I read it that I do not remember whether it was Flatland or Sphereland. But it got me to the point where I could wrap my head around curved space and higher dimensional geometries.
Oh. So far I have watched Flatland, but the movie Sphereland seems elusive, website is down. I see a physical copy of it for $24.95 on Amazon but maybe there is someway to rent it.

ergospherical said:
If you have access through your college / other, familiarise yourself with the geodesic hypothesis.
https://aip.scitation.org/doi/10.1063/1.522416
Hmm it won't let me access without a login.

Ibix said:
It is tautological. This by @A.T. is much better:

Seen that. Seems tautological, it just replaces space movement with time movement, but doesn't explain what is causing the forward momentum in time in the first place.

Gaussian97 said:
I particularly like the following video:

Idk. I seen that a while ago, but still was confused. I watched that for 8 minutes before I gave up lol. I'll watch it again later.

Also this gives me an idea, you can represent 4d dimensions by just doing 3d haptics and creating different amounts of sensations per 3d point.

Assuming this video is true, my hypothesis is that consciousness is what causes gravity. The object deciding to accelerate is caused by consciousness going forward.

In any case, that is only my hypothesis. I don't know if that's true, but also some other things about the videos don't make sense to me. If time is 1 dimensional, how can it be curved? Also, in order to turn an object (like a car on a turn) you need fuel. A turn is simply when motion in one dimension is converted to motion in a different dimension. So in order for an object to convert its time momentum to spatial momentum, there seems like fuel is required. But idk and give up for now.
stevendaryl said:
Orbiting means that its location changes as a function of time.
My original statement was implying that time is the result of location.

Dale said:
If spacetime were flat, then yes. It is the curvature of spacetime that allows different parts of the Earth to be continually accelerating away from each other without getting further away from each other. Did you read the link I cited earlier? I really tried to walk through the origin of these concepts. No math is involved, but it is a verbal description of the actual theory and not a handwaving “rubber sheet” thing.
I read some of that but I will try to read it again more in detail later.
 
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  • #40
mate my advice would be to go buy/borrow/steal yourself a nice general relativity textbook, or if that's not possible then read through the notes of tong/carroll/blau/etc. (i.e. you've got the enthusiasm, but at some point you've got to back it up with a solid understanding of the basic principles ☺️)
 
  • #41
ergospherical said:
mate my advice would be to go buy/borrow/steal yourself a nice general relativity textbook, or if that's not possible then read through the notes of tong/carroll/blau/etc. (i.e. you've got the enthusiasm, but at some point you've got to back it up with a solid understanding of the basic principles ☺️)
I don't have the energy for that right now but maybe later when I have more free time. Was hoping for also an easier explanation that didn't require hundreds of pages...
 
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  • #42
paradisePhysicist said:
Assuming this video is true, my hypothesis is that consciousness is what causes gravity. The object deciding to accelerate is caused by consciousness going forward.
No. Consciousness has nothing to do with it. (Nor do I understand how you could get the idea that it does from that video.)

First: All objects move through spacetime into the future. They don't have to be conscious. Rocks do it.

Second: Objects that are not being pushed on by something (the Earth's surface, a rocket engine, etc.) move through spacetime on geodesics, i.e., freely falling worldlines. Such objects feel no weight; they are weightless, like astronauts (and all other objects) on the International Space Station. (This, btw, shows that not all geodesics near the Earth are falling towards the Earth; there are others that are orbits around the Earth.) Note that such objects are not "accelerating" in the sense in which that term is used in GR (the more precise term is "proper acceleration").

Third: Objects sitting at rest on the Earth's surface are being pushed on by something: the Earth. That's why such objects feel weight--because they aren't moving through spacetime on geodesics. (Such objects have nonzero proper acceleration, in GR terms: in other words, "nonzero proper acceleration" is the same thing as "feels weight".) That's what prevents them from falling towards the center of the Earth, which would be their "natural" motion (the geodesic motion, the motion they would follow if nothing was pushing on them).

So the proper question to ask is not what is holding us down, but what is holding us up? And the answer is, the Earth.
 
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  • #43
paradisePhysicist said:
If time is 1 dimensional, how can it be curved?
It's not time that is curved, it's spacetime. Spacetime has 4 dimensions.

"Time curvature" is just a way of saying that the effects of spacetime curvature for an object sitting at rest on the Earth are the result of moving through spacetime in the time direction, not one of the spatial directions.

paradisePhysicist said:
lso, in order to turn an object (like a car on a turn) you need fuel. A turn is simply when motion in one dimension is converted to motion in a different dimension.
Your basic intuition here is correct, but you need to change your definition of what constitutes a "turn". In GR, a "turn" is non-geodesic motion, i.e., non-freely-falling motion (motion in which the object feels weight), which is the correct generalization to the spacetime case of the intuitive notion of "moving in a straight line" that you are using here. So what requires a "push" on the object is non-geodesic motion through spacetime.

paradisePhysicist said:
So in order for an object to convert its time momentum to spatial momentum, there seems like fuel is required.
If what is pushing on the object is a rocket engine or something like that, then yes. But in the case of the Earth, what is pushing on the object is a huge static configuration of matter in hydrostatic equilibrium. Such a configuration can push on an object on its surface without having to expend any fuel.
 
  • #44
paradisePhysicist said:
Assuming this video is true, my hypothesis is that consciousness is what causes gravity.
...
My original statement was implying that time is the result of location.

Are you trying to understand General Relativity, or had you rather just make up your own theory? Physics Forums is not the place for the latter.

If you are trying to ask questions about how a theory works, then don't interject your own theory. That's just muddying the waters. And a general rule of thumb is that you try to understand existing theories before you venture to make up your own. You don't make up your own theory because you can't be bothered to understand what people have already learned.
 
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  • #45
paradisePhysicist said:
Seen that. Seems tautological, it just replaces space movement with time movement, but doesn't explain what is causing the forward momentum in time in the first place.

How is that tautological? No, it doesn't explain why we are always moving forward in time. But you're asking too much if you want a theory to explain everything about why the universe is the way that it is. General Relativity is only describing how gravity works.

It starts off with the assumption that objects are moving through 4 dimensional spacetime. It can't prove that assumption. Physical theories are not provable, they are only falsifiable: you use the theory to make predictions and then do experiments to see if those predictions are born out.
 
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  • #46
paradisePhysicist said:
If time is 1 dimensional, how can it be curved?
It takes at least two dimensions for curvature. But it isn’t time that is curved, it is spacetime that is curved. Spacetime can curve in the time direction, but it is still 4D spacetime that is curving

paradisePhysicist said:
Was hoping for also an easier explanation that didn't require hundreds of pages.
Try my explanation then. It is only a few pages. In the meantime please don’t speculate. The whole consciousness thing is silly.
 
  • #47
sawer said:
but I imagine even it is geodesic, it is line, why does it have to be just one way on the geodesic, even my free falling stopped?
Not one way, reverse process is possible. Say you throw a ball upward, it goes slower, stops at the top, goes down faster and comes back to your hand. All through the trajectory is geodesic and called free fall even when it is going upward, or called, more properly I think, in free motion.
 
  • #48
mitochan said:
Not one way, reverse process is possible.

Still, even in that case - geodesic is a curve in spacetime, not space, and everything is "moving" only one way along it.
 
  • #49
PeterDonis said:
Second: Objects that are not being pushed on by something (the Earth's surface, a rocket engine, etc.) move through spacetime on geodesics, i.e., freely falling worldlines. Such objects feel no weight; they are weightless, like astronauts (and all other objects) on the International Space Station. (This, btw, shows that not all geodesics near the Earth are falling towards the Earth; there are others that are orbits around the Earth.) Note that such objects are not "accelerating" in the sense in which that term is used in GR (the more precise term is "proper acceleration").

Third: Objects sitting at rest on the Earth's surface are being pushed on by something: the Earth. That's why such objects feel weight--because they aren't moving through spacetime on geodesics.
My original understanding (or lack thereof) was that the object was moving on the geodesic, through space time, then when it collides with the Earth most of the object is still moving or at least trying to move, except for the parts of the object touching Earth.

PeterDonis said:
It's not time that is curved, it's spacetime. Spacetime has 4 dimensions.

"Time curvature" is just a way of saying that the effects of spacetime curvature for an object sitting at rest on the Earth are the result of moving through spacetime in the time direction, not one of the spatial directions.
A curve is produced when a function uses x input to change the y output. Are you saying that some dimension of space, let's say z, changes the t output of time? Or maybe that t changes the output of z? Z refers to the vertical dimension of earth, the surface normal pointing up.
PeterDonis said:
Your basic intuition here is correct, but you need to change your definition of what constitutes a "turn". In GR, a "turn" is non-geodesic motion, i.e., non-freely-falling motion (motion in which the object feels weight), which is the correct generalization to the spacetime case of the intuitive notion of "moving in a straight line" that you are using here. So what requires a "push" on the object is non-geodesic motion through spacetime.
A plane follows a geodesic to save on fuel. I guess what's confusing is when a plane chooses not to follow a geodesic, the plane doesn't automatically experience a force compelling it to follow the most geodesic trajectory, which would rubberband it back to the most optimized trajectory. Or at least that's of my current understanding of how planes operate.
stevendaryl said:
Are you trying to understand General Relativity, or had you rather just make up your own theory? Physics Forums is not the place for the latter.
It was merely a hypothesis I said. The hypothesis I said, that consciousness caused time momentum, was meant to support the Einstein gravity theory.

stevendaryl said:
If you are trying to ask questions about how a theory works, then don't interject your own theory. That's just muddying the waters. And a general rule of thumb is that you try to understand existing theories before you venture to make up your own. You don't make up your own theory because you can't be bothered to understand what people have already learned.
Perhaps this did muddy the waters, but I was only trying to offer a suggestion as to why time moves forward. I was not trying to contradict the Einstein theory but offer an explanation of why it works. My first statement, that time was simply the result of location, was meant to merely offer a new perspective of time, not to be presented as a proper theory. But in the future I shall not post any more speculations on here about such matters, if that's what you desire.

Dale said:
It takes at least two dimensions for curvature. But it isn’t time that is curved, it is spacetime that is curved. Spacetime can curve in the time direction, but it is still 4D spacetime that is curving

Try my explanation then. It is only a few pages. In the meantime please don’t speculate. The whole consciousness thing is silly.
I plan on reading this explanation of yours today. I shall also not post any more speculations on here about such matters.



I watched this video again, the animation seems to show gravity causing gravity, like the Earth is using free energy and pulling the fabric of space inwards. This is not meant as a speculation or saying that the free energy is actually happening in the video, but just what the video looks like to me when watching it.
 
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  • #50
paradisePhysicist said:
I was not trying to contradict the Einstein theory but offer an explanation of why it works.

How can you offer any meaningfull explanation if you don't even know and understand this subject on a technical level? What for? It's a waste of time - primarily yours. You could use this time to try to learn technical details.
 
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