If Toto had never run behind the curtain, Dorothy might never have got home

[Saint]

If Toto had never run behind the curtain, Dorothy might never have got home
What does this mean?

 

[enigma]

It is referring to The Wizard of Oz.

IIRC:

Toto, Dorothy's dog, ran behind the green curtain to expose that the 'Wizard' was just a man. He then told her that she had to click her heels three times to go home from Oz. I don't remember why he wouldn't tell her to begin with...

 

[recon]

enigma, I think what Saint wants to know is what one is actually implying when one says "If Toto had never run behind the curtain, Dorothy might never have got home".

I watched The Wizard of Oz a long time ago, when I was around 4 or 5 so I can't really remember it now.

 

[enigma]

If you don't know who is pulling the strings, you won't get what you want.

 

[Entropy]

That movie gave me nightmares the first time I saw it!

Anyways I can't stand the movie.

 

[BobG]

If Toto had never run behind the curtain, Dorothy might never have got home
What does this mean?

That dogs are better pets than cats. It Toto were a cat, his curiosity would have killed him.

Hey, you have to read between the lines. It's not as absurd as some of the other 'hidden' meanings people find in the Wizard of Oz.

 

[Njorl]

The Dorothy in Oz was dreaming Dorothy's ego. Toto represents the subconcious. The wizard was her superego. Dorothy's delusional state was a manifestation of her selfish desires, but her subconscious sought out the means to bring her to a mature, rational decision.

Actually, I just made all that up, but it sounds pretty good!

Njorl

 

[Monique]

Dream on Njorl

 

[Ivan Seeking]

The Dorothy in Oz was dreaming Dorothy's ego. Toto represents the subconcious. The wizard was her superego. Dorothy's delusional state was a manifestation of her selfish desires, but her subconscious sought out the means to bring her to a mature, rational decision.

Actually, I just made all that up, but it sounds pretty good!

Njorl

Well, I would have thought that was all very funny but I just chimed into make similar statements and now you have ruined everything!.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

How about...
Toto was her guardian angel.
OZ was the promise of tomorrow
The Wizard was the unknown
Glenda "the good witch" was God
The munchkins were angels
The bad witch was the devil, of course

Better?

Dorthy was Moses?

 

[Njorl]

Dream on Njorl

Actually, my own heels are black and blue from all the clicking I've done. It just won't work!

Njorl

 

[franznietzsche]

Actually, my own heels are black and blue from all the clicking I've done. It just won't work!

Njorl

are you wearing the blue dress and the red shoes?

 

[Saint]

I still don't understand

 

[Moonbear]

One interpretation would be that to get what you want, sometimes you need to take a risk and do the unexpected.

Or, you might also interpret it that sometimes it's the accidental discovery that leads to what you really need.

Or, sometimes you have to break the rules to get anywhere (Toto wasn't supposed to go behind the curtain).

I'm not sure exactly. Maybe it would help to know the context of how it was used.

 

[Chrono]

The Dorothy in Oz was dreaming Dorothy's ego. Toto represents the subconcious. The wizard was her superego. Dorothy's delusional state was a manifestation of her selfish desires, but her subconscious sought out the means to bring her to a mature, rational decision.

Actually, I just made all that up, but it sounds pretty good!

Njorl

Dang, I thought you were totally serious for a moment. Good thinking, man!

 

[Gokul43201]

Dang ! I thought it had something to do with geetting high on weed and listening to Dark Side...

 

[Chrono]

Dang ! I thought it had something to do with geetting high on weed and listening to Dark Side...

Listening to Dark Side? I thought you had to feel it.

 

[Gokul43201]

Listening to Dark Side? I thought you had to feel it.

Quite True.

Surely, this can't be helping Saint !

 

[Moonbear]

Dang ! I thought it had something to do with geetting high on weed and listening to Dark Side...

It also works when sober and on a really bad date (it's usually a bad sign when I don't know it's a date until I get there...years ago, a neighbor had just invited me over to watch some videos, and apparently had imbibed some liquid courage prior to my arrival...hence the selection of media for the evening entertainment...it was easier to go along with watching than to talk to the drunk guy).

 

[Chrono]

on a really bad date

I wouldn't know about those. Nor would I know about good dates, either. :shy:

 

[Gokul43201]

I wouldn't know about those. Nor would I know about good dates, either. :shy:

Don't worry, Chrono...now sing with me :

Ti...i i ime is on my side, yes it is

PS : What's the word "digression" mean ?

 

[Chrono]

Don't worry, Chrono...now sing with me :

Ti...i i ime is on my side, yes it is

I prefer, "I'm so pretty, oh, so pretty. Pretty, and witty, and gay!"

 

[BobG]

If Toto had never run behind the curtain, Dorothy might never have got home
What does this mean?

A lot of times, when you ask for some kind of help or service, you get the standard bureaucratic reply, explaining why they can't help you, since their procedures only cover a few standard type problems (obviously, the most common problems, but little help to you if there's some unique twist in your particular problem).

At some point, you can't just keep taking the answer "I can't help you, but maybe you could try Barry (then Charlie, then Dave, etc.)."

Eventually, you're going to have to say "The hell with the standard procedure, I need someone to THINK and figure out how to deal with my problem, right now!"

In the movie, the wizard was a fraud who really couldn't help with any but the very simplest problems ("If it's not in the manual, how can I possibly help you?"). Since the wizard couldn't really help, he required some impossible task from Dorothy before her request could be considered (she had to bring back documentation proving she had killed the Wicked Witch. Fortunately the documenatation didn't have to be in triplicate). When the documentation (the broom) was presented, the wizard had to create some other hurdle to hide the fact that he had nothing in his standard repretoire (standard bureaucratic procedures) to help Dorothy and her gang. Toto had to break the bureaucratic cycle by exposing the real decision maker behind the imposing bureaucratic front.

In true cynical fashion, the wizard still didn't really provide much even after Dorothy and friends managed to cross the threshold to the real decision maker. He made a few of them feel better by validating things that were already true (but it always makes me feel good when a bureaucrat validates my parking ticket) and Dorothy wound up having to help herself.

 

[BobG]

Listening to Dark Side? I thought you had to feel it.

Chrono, no offense, but ... wait! I take that back! I do mean offense!

Are you totally ignorant?! Are you totally clueless as to who Pink Floyd is?!

By the way, it's "Feel the force, Luke", not "Feel the Dark Side".

Geesh, next thing you know, you're going start singing "Women do get wooly?"

 

[Chrono]

Are you totally ignorant?! Are you totally clueless as to who Pink Floyd is?!

By the way, it's "Feel the force, Luke", not "Feel the Dark Side".

Dude, that was Pink Floyd?! I had no idea.

Didn't Darth Vader tell Luke to feel the Dark Side in the third movie?

 

[Gokul43201]

There are folks that make the Pink Floyd experience a multisensory event...so you CAN "feel" Dark Side ...

"It's more than just listening to music. It's like a spiritual experience"...with a lot of weed, 'shrooms, or what have you, to help with that.

 

[Chrono]

There are folks that make the Pink Floyd experience a multisensory event...so you CAN "feel" Dark Side ...

"It's more than just listening to music. It's like a spiritual experience"...with a lot of weed, 'shrooms, or what have you, to help with that.

I remember watching the Discovery Channel one day and they showed this woman who could see colors by what she hears.

 

[Moonbear]

Oh, geez, I didn't even realize Chrono had mixed up Pink Floyd and Star Wars. I thought the "feel it" comment referred to the use of mind-altering substances inspiring that combination of music and movie.

Um, yeah, Pink Floyd's Dark Side of the Moon album is what we're talking about. The idea is if you play the album along with the movie the Wizard of Oz, the music fits the movie...use of mind-altering substances supposedly helps you get past the spots where it doesn't quite work. I don't recommend trying it. If you watch it sober, bring along a drunk or stoned friend and a vivid imagination to explain the connection for you. You're really not missing much to not know about it.

 

[Gokul43201]

I remember watching the Discovery Channel one day and they showed this woman who could see colors by what she hears.

Wow ! That's like being high while you're sober - too cool !

 

[Chrono]

Um, yeah, Pink Floyd's Dark Side of the Moon album is what we're talking about. The idea is if you play the album along with the movie the Wizard of Oz, the music fits the movie...use of mind-altering substances supposedly helps you get past the spots where it doesn't quite work. I don't recommend trying it. If you watch it sober, bring along a drunk or stoned friend and a vivid imagination to explain the connection for you. You're really not missing much to not know about it.

I didn't know about that.

 

[Gokul43201]

Nearly every year, at my University (I won't say which one) some group or other - like Students for Fair Drug Laws - organises a screening of Wizard of Oz, with the original audio muted and replaced with Dark Side of the Moon. It's called the Dark Side of Oz, and gets screened in one of the Engineering Buildings, I think.

Anyways, I heard from someone who saw one of these that as soon as the lights go down and the doors are shut...out come the pipes - this happens on campus !

 

[Chrono]

Anyways, I heard from someone who saw one of these that as soon as the lights go down and the doors are shut...out come the pipes - this happens on campus !

And the University knows about this?

 

[BobG]

Um, yeah, Pink Floyd's Dark Side of the Moon album is what we're talking about. The idea is if you play the album along with the movie the Wizard of Oz, the music fits the movie...use of mind-altering substances supposedly helps you get past the spots where it doesn't quite work. I don't recommend trying it. If you watch it sober, bring along a drunk or stoned friend and a vivid imagination to explain the connection for you. You're really not missing much to not know about it.

Now, how can you say that? Missing an experience like that is almost as bad as having never watched the Rocky Horror Picture Show in a theater.

 

[Njorl]

Hmm, there's an 8 minute time differential. Maybe they tack "Pigs (three different ones)" onto the end.

I think "One of these days", from "Meddle" would be better for the tornado scene than anything from "Darkside". The one spoken line could coincide with the appearance of the witch.

Njorl

 

[Math Is Hard]

http://www.everwonder.com/david/wizardofoz/

I have got to get around to doing this one of these days.

 

[Chrono]

Missing an experience like that is almost as bad as having never watched the Rocky Horror Picture Show in a theater.

I never did that.

 

[Saint]

all of you had been off-topic

 

[Math Is Hard]

Hi Saint,
Have you had a chance to watch the movie "The Wizard of Oz"? If so, what did you think about it? I think your kids would love it!

 

[Ivan Seeking]

all of you had been off-topic

Without some context for the quote that you gave, no one can know the answer to your question.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

I still think Dorothy was Moses.

 

[BobG]

all of you had been off-topic

That's not fair. Only about 66% of the posts have been off topic. And at least 7% of the posts actually attempted to answer your question.

Alternative meaning: If Toto hadn't exposed the wizard as a fraud, Dorothy would have continued to pay homage to a false god - one that led to her addiction to heroin (the poppy fields) and cocaine (the snow that got her off the heroin). Moral: Dorothy had to stop relying on men of little character and take care of herself

Edit: Thought I'd take the easy way out and just do a search for the phrase, but wouldn't you know it, your post is right there at the top of the list.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

So the Wizard was Timothy Leary?

 

[Gokul43201]

So the Wizard was Timothy Leary?

Are you calling Leary a fraud or a 'man of little character' or both ?

I've heard accusations against Leary, but none of the above. A junkie, a showman, a nutter, etc. but junkies can have character, and Feynman was clearly a showman...

 

[Ivan Seeking]

It was just a joke; though I would wager he was a bit of a fraud.

I don't really think Dorothy was Moses either, though I'm sure the story has classical roots somewhere. I just don't know classical literature well enough to be sure of the proper allusion.

 

[Math Is Hard]

The Dorothy in Oz was dreaming Dorothy's ego. Toto represents the subconcious. The wizard was her superego. Dorothy's delusional state was a manifestation of her selfish desires, but her subconscious sought out the means to bring her to a mature, rational decision.

Toto acts as a catalyst several times in the film, motivating Dorothy to do something she normally wouldn't be courageous enough to do.

In the beginning of the movie, Dorothy runs away from home. Why? Because Toto bit Mrs. Gulch and Mrs. Gulch called for the dog to be destroyed. Dorothy had reasons to run away from home before this (boredom, need for adventure), but she never acted until Toto forced the issue.

In the end of the movie, Toto causes Dorothy to realize the Wizard is a fraud. Dorothy would never have been bold enough to yank back the curtain and find out for herself.

Dorothy is a metaphor for repressed desires and a clinging to innocence. Even the little-girlish dress she wears suggests that she is apprehensive about moving toward adulthood. Toto is the emergence of Dorothy's adult identity, which she frequently feels powerless to control. (Note that she tries to keep Toto in her basket.)

 

[Chrono]

Y'all either have stumbled onto something that I have failed to with this, or just over-analyze things way too much. I think it's the former.

 

[BobG]

Math is Hard is #1 so far (that was really good).

 

[Math Is Hard]

:shy: awwwrr! thanks!

 

[Chrono]

Math is Hard is #1 so far (that was really good).

You mean, I wasn't close?

 

[Ivan Seeking]

"The Wizard of Oz: Parable on Populism." Littlefield described all sorts of hidden meanings and allusions to Gilded Age society in The Wonderful Wizard of Oz: the wicked Witch of the East represented eastern industrialists and bankers who controlled the people (the Munchkins); the Scarecrow was the wise but naive western farmer; the Tin Woodman stood for the dehumanized industrial worker; the Cowardly Lion was William Jennings Bryan, Populist presidential candidate in 1896; the Yellow Brick Road, with all its dangers, was the gold standard; Dorothy's silver slippers (Judy Garland's were ruby red, but Baum originally made them silver) represented the Populists' solution to the nation's economic woes ("the free and unlimited coinage of silver"); Emerald City was Washington, D.C.; the Wizard, "a little bumbling old man, hiding behind a facade of paper mache and noise, . . . able to be everything to everybody," was any of the Gilded Age presidents.(1)

The Wonderful Wizard of Oz was no longer an innocent fairy tale. According to Littlefield, Baum, a reform-minded Democrat who supported William Jennings Bryan's pro-silver candidacy, wrote the book as a parable of the Populists, an allegory of their failed efforts to reform the nation in 1896. "Baum never allowed the consistency of the allegory to take precedence over the theme of youthful entertainment," Littlefield hedged at one point; "the allegory always remains in a minor key." Still, he concluded that "the relationships and analogies outlined above . . . are far too consistent to be coincidental."(2)

It was an interesting notion, one scholars could not leave alone, and they soon began to find additional correspondences between Populism and The Wonderful Wizard of Oz. Richard Jensen, in a 1971 study of Midwestern politics and culture, devoted two pages to Baum's story. He implicitly qualified Littlefield by pointing out that not all pro-Bryan silverites were Populists. But Jensen then proceeded to add two new points to the standard Littlefield interpretation, finding analogies for Toto and Oz itself: Dorothy's faithful dog represented the teetotaling Prohibitionists, an important part of the silverite coalition, and anyone familiar with the silverites' slogan "16 to 1"--that is, the ratio of sixteen ounces of silver to one ounce of gold--would have instantly recognized "Oz" as the abbreviation for "ounce."(3)

http://www.halcyon.com/piglet/Populism.htm

The Wizard of Oz in American Popular Culture:

This interpretation was actually conceived as a Doctoral Dissertation by Neil Earle, but was later published as a book. This book consists of seven chapters. In the introduction, Earle describes his intentions as follows: "To answer the question as to why a fairy tale has lingered so long and so lovingly in the minds of generations of Americans and has cast such a spell across the popular arts necessitates this broad-based approach. This explains my analysis in Chapter Two. Chapters Three and Four aim to provide a fresh commentary upon the original text informed by theories derived from both popular and archetypal studies. Chapter Five analyzes the 1939 film and its significance. Chapter Six attempts to do the same for the all-black 1978 musical film The Wiz. Chapter Seven will try to summarize how Baum's classic helps define popular culture and its critical parameters. Fortunately, this historical and literary journey along the "Yellow Brick Road" has a neat and timely starting point: the year 1900. It is to that period of history we will have to first turn to place the events that were shaping not just the Gale farm in Kansas but also the larger American scene. Before all of this, however, I want to recall earlier, ingenious attempts to unravel the Baumian world. The analysis of these interpretations takes us to Chapter One."

Plus:
Analogy between the Yellow Brick Road and the Information Superhighway
The Wizard of Oz as a Secular Myth
Salman Rushdie's Theories of Oz
The Wizard of Oz as a Theosophical Allegory

Journal Articles:
Geer, John G. "William Jennings Bryan on the Yellow Brick Road", Journal of American Culture, v.16:4, Winter 1993, pp. 59-63.

Murphy, Michael J. "The Wizard of Oz as Cultural Narrative and Conceptual Model for Psychotherapy", Psychotherapy, v.33:4, 1996, pp.531+.

Paige, L.R."Wearing the Red Shoes: Dorothy and the Power of the Female Imagination in The Wizard of Oz", The Journal of Popular Film and Television : JPF&T, v.23:4, 1996, pp. 146+.

Payne, D. "The Wizard of Oz : Therapeutic Rhetoric in a Contemporary Media Ritual", Quarterly Journal of Speech, v.75, February, 1989, pp. 25-39.

Szymanski, Michael. "A Jaundiced Look at the Yellow Brick Road", The Advocate: The National Gay & Lesbian Newsmagazine, no.548, April 10, 1990, pp. 34-36.

Weininger, O. "Mourning as Reflected in The Wonderful Wizard of Oz", Journal of the Melanie Klein Society, v.6:2, December 1988, pp. 3-17.
Master's Theses:

Perrin, Stephanie. The Works of L. Frank Baum: American Fantasy in Changing Times, Masters Thesis (M.A.)--Carleton University (Canada), 1994.

Doctoral Dissertations:

Groch, John R. Corporate Reading, Corporate Writing: MGM and CBS in the Land of Oz, Thesis (PH.D.)--The University of Iowa, 1996.

Riley, Michael O'Neal. Introductory Interiors: The Development of L. Frank Baum's Imaginary World, Thesis (PH.D.)--Emory University, 1988.

Swartz, Mark E. Before the Rainbow: L. Frank Baum's The Wonderful Wizard of Oz on Stage and Screen to 1939, Thesis (PH.D.)--New York University, 1996.

http://www.geocities.com/~ozfan/ozcritic.htm


The Wizard of Oz: Professor MarvelÇs
Analysis of an Adolescent Girl
http://www.fortda.org/fall_02/page5.htm

etc etc etc