In Mechanical Wave v = w/k. EM wave w/k = c. How Equated ?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers on the relationship between the velocity of mechanical waves and electromagnetic (EM) waves, specifically focusing on the equation v = ω/k and how it relates to the amplitudes of the electric and magnetic fields in EM waves. Participants explore the implications of this relationship and its connection to wave propagation and amplitudes.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants express confusion about how the ratio Em/Bm relates to the velocity of EM waves being equal to c, questioning if the leading edges of the E and B fields propagate at c.
  • One participant states that the velocity of propagation for a transverse wave is not related to the amplitude of the wave, suggesting a distinction between propagation velocity and amplitude effects.
  • Another participant challenges this view, asserting that the propagation velocity is indeed related to amplitude, as indicated by the equation ω/k = Em/Bm = c.
  • A later reply provides a mathematical approach using Maxwell's equations to derive the relationship between Em/Bm and ω/k, suggesting that this derivation clarifies the connection between the amplitudes of the electric and magnetic fields and the wave speed.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants do not reach a consensus on whether the propagation velocity is related to the amplitude of the wave. Multiple competing views remain regarding the interpretation of the relationship between wave speed and amplitudes.

Contextual Notes

Some participants reference specific equations and concepts from textbooks, indicating that their understanding may depend on the definitions and interpretations of terms like amplitude and wave velocity. There are unresolved aspects regarding how these relationships are derived and understood in different contexts.

Point Conception
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With ω/k = 2π/T / 2π/λ = velocity for both transverse mechanical waves and EM waves.
I can understand velocity as distance over time in mechanical wave. But how is the ratio Em/Bm = ω/k = c.
That is the maximum amplitudes of the E and B fields in the y and z planes corresponding to c in x direction ?
Is it correct to say that the " leading edges" of the E and B fields in y and z planes are at c ?

http://www.santarosa.edu/~lwillia2/42/WaveEquationDerivation.pdf
 
Last edited:
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morrobay said:
With ω/k = 2π/T / 2π/λ = velocity for both transverse mechanical waves and EM waves.
I can understand velocity as distance over time in mechanical wave. But how is the ratio Em/Bm = ω/k = c.
That is the maximum amplitudes of the E and B fields in the y and z planes corresponding to c in x direction ?
Is it correct to say that the " leading edges" of the E and B fields in y and z planes are at c ?

http://www.santarosa.edu/~lwillia2/42/WaveEquationDerivation.pdf

Too late edit : With dE/dx and t constant, dB/dt and x constant --> ∂E/∂x = - ∂B/∂t ... then to ω/k = Em/Bm = c. Does answer the change in x/change in t question. Again still not sure how this is related to amplitudes ?
 
morrobay said:
Too late edit : With dE/dx and t constant, dB/dt and x constant --> ∂E/∂x = - ∂B/∂t ... then to ω/k = Em/Bm = c. Does answer the change in x/change in t question. Again still not sure how this is related to amplitudes ?
The velocity of propagation for a transverse wave is not related to the amplitude of the wave at all.
 
SteamKing said:
The velocity of propagation for a transverse wave is not related to the amplitude of the wave at all.
Well that's my question , with ω/k = Emax/Bmax = c. (from Halliday-Resnick) The propagation velocity is related to amplitude. Unless I am misinterpreting Em/Bm
 
This is from a page in the text : kEm cos (kx-ωt) = ωBm cos (kx-ωt).
ω/k = Em/Bm = c
Thus the speed of wave c is the ratio of the amplitude of the electric and magnetic components of the wave.
So can someone show how Em/Bm = ω/k ?
 
morrobay said:
So can someone show how Em/Bm = ω/k ?

Consider the following plane wave as an example: $$\vec E = \hat x E_m \cos (kz - \omega t) \\ \vec B = \hat y B_m \cos (kz - \omega t) $$ where ##\hat x## and ##\hat y## are unit vectors in the x and y directions. That is, ##\vec E## and ##\vec B## are in the x and y directions respectively, and the wave propagates in the z direction. Substitute these into the third Maxwell equation in free space: $$\vec \nabla \times \vec E = - \frac {\partial \vec B}{\partial t}$$ and you will get the desired result.

[added: I originally had ##E_m## instead of ##B_m## in my equation for ##\vec B## above. I've fixed this.]
 
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