News In memory: Rachel Corrie (1979 - 2003)

[Bilal]

You asked about proof that Palestinian forced to leave their homes, and I provided it from Israeli sources including the personal book of Rabin... unfortunately you changed the argument again!

War of creation of Israel is very logical for many reasons:

1- It is not possible to create Jews homeland in areas where Palestinian the majority, therefore no choice for Zionist except to expel as many as possible from the Palestinian people (ethic cleansing)

2- UN resolutions is rejected by both sides, because the Zionist organizations (Lihi and Itzel-Argun) wanted to take Palestine and Jordan completely and to kick all the non Jews to Iraq. The Zionists forces formed from : Hagnah , Etzel and Lihi … you can read more Itzel and Lihi here to see what their opinion about the UN resolution and their contribution in the war, beside their collaboration with NAZI in 2WW:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lehi_(group)

(Lehi (Hebrew acronym for Lohamei Herut Israel, "Fighters for the Freedom of Israel") was a radical self-described terrorist group that had as its goal the eviction of the British from Palestine to allow unrestricted immigration of Jews and the formation of a Jewish state.))
Image:SternGang-Doc-Nazi-Collaboration
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:SternGang-Doc-Nazi-Collaboration.jpg

Irgun (Etzel)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irgun

((• From July 1946 until June 1948, Irgun fought as irregulars against the British mandate and Arab forces, informally in coordination with Haganah forces. Their participation in alleged "war crimes" at Deir Yassin has been widely discussed and documented. Their largest single operation was a successful assault on Jaffa (an Arab enclave according to the UN partition plan) starting on May 25.

• In 1948, the group was formally dissolved and its members integrated into the newly formed Israeli Defense Forces. This integration largely coincided with the sinking of the Altalena, a ship with fighters Irgun had recruited and arms Irgun had acquired for Israeli forces. ))

In fact the Palestinian war started during 2WW, because one from three Zionist organizations promised the NAZI German to assists them and declared war against UK and the Palestinian. After the UN resolution the war became more serious and 35000 Arab fighters joined several thousands of Palestinian fighters to defend their homeland against 90000 Zionist soldiers (Hagnah, Irgun and Lihi) with advance weapon.

You are talking about war which was initiated by the Arabs while I was talking about the creation of Israel. War always will hurt people, innocent or not. Israel has full rights to defend itself during a war.

Because Palestinians were forced to relocate during a war which was initiated by themselves, does in no way discredit the morality of the creation of Israel.

 

[1123581321]

The way I see it, there is no solution to the Middle East issue. There will always be zionists and jihadists and rich slobs who want more land, until you kill every human being, there will be no peace. War is a fact of life, and we should just accept it and move on. Until one nation prevails and takes control of all the land, there will always be conflict. The Holy Land cannot be split in 3(Jewish, Muslim, Christian), nor can one rule without conflict, because it is that complix. These three religions really have a lot in common, infact you can almost say that each is a sect of the jewish religion. Unless i read the bible wrong, before Abriham had Isaac, he had another son who could be called the patriarch of Islam, while Isaac the patriarch of jewdism. This is where the 'promised land' problim, because many argue that this other son was abriham's first born, thus he owns abrimam's land, not isaac. Christianity came about later, and was, at first, jews who believed that their savior had come, but became their own religion when a leader, a pope, St. Peter came about. This is a very deep question, and merits a deep answer. The best solution is one state which represents all religions, but that is a far off goal and can only come about if the world gives much sacrifice and blood.
I hope that that is a good explination for you.

Fibonacci

 

[Bilal]

You have good points about one nation in one land for all religions. In fact Palestinian is nation who could represent all religions. We are multi religion nation as any other nation in this world and everybody is free to choose his religion.

Muslims conquered Palestine from Roman in 632. In that time no Jews is allowed to live in Jerusalem, and they suffer a lot because the church claimed their responsibility about "blood of Jesus". During Muslims rule, Jews are allowed to live everywhere, and they established Jews region in Jerusalem for the first time since 3 centuries.

In the end of 11th century, the European Catholic declared holy war to liberate the Land of Jesus from Muslims and Jews. They succeeded to occupy Jerusalem in 1099. They murdered all the citizens of this city including 60000 Muslims and 4000 Jews beside the Eastern Christian (who already lived in peace for 5 centuries). They believed that Palestine is only belong to the nation of Jesus ... after 200 years of horrible wars, Muslims and Jews returned back to live in peace with Christian. Till end of 19th century , Among the Palestinian nation, 20% Christian and 5% Jews. It was land of all refugees and people who suffer from aggression: Jews immigration from Russia 1860-1882, Jews immigration from Spain: 1495-1515, Chechen immigration due Russian invasion: 1850, Bosnian immigration due to civil war: 1870, Armenian (Christian) immigration from Turkey: 1917.

The problem started when extreme nationalist European Jews decided in 1897 to create ''Jews State" (you can compare that with Crusaders who want Christian State without unbelievers). They got promise from UK in 1917 to start their project ignoring the right of 2 Millions Muslims, Christian and even Palestinian Jews (Sumerian Jews).

Unfortunately, it seems the history repeat itself.. Although the propaganda against Islam theses day, it seems only Muslims who tolerate with both Jews and Christian of Palestine...

I do believe we should again establish one democratic State and everybody can care about his holy places. I am talking about my lovely country not about mosque or church. I want to see peace in my homeland and I want everybody to accept the right of others to live as human.

I wish it is matter of time till the Zionists accept to live in one democratic country for different religions.

The way I see it, there is no solution to the Middle East issue. There will always be zionists and jihadists and rich slobs who want more land, until you kill every human being, there will be no peace. War is a fact of life, and we should just accept it and move on. Until one nation prevails and takes control of all the land, there will always be conflict. The Holy Land cannot be split in 3(Jewish, Muslim, Christian), nor can one rule without conflict, because it is that complix. These three religions really have a lot in common, infact you can almost say that each is a sect of the jewish religion. Unless i read the bible wrong, before Abriham had Isaac, he had another son who could be called the patriarch of Islam, while Isaac the patriarch of jewdism. This is where the 'promised land' problim, because many argue that this other son was abriham's first born, thus he owns abrimam's land, not isaac. Christianity came about later, and was, at first, jews who believed that their savior had come, but became their own religion when a leader, a pope, St. Peter came about. This is a very deep question, and merits a deep answer. The best solution is one state which represents all religions, but that is a far off goal and can only come about if the world gives much sacrifice and blood.
I hope that that is a good explination for you.

Fibonacci

 

[kat]

Bilal, while I would agree that Europian Christians were certianly guilty of a greater cruelty to jews then Muslims pre-1900's, the rosey picture you paint for Jews under Muslim rule is not at all historically honest.

 

[Bilal]

Dear Kat,

For analysis of any historical event we should follow two rules:

1- Taking into consideration the time of the event, then compare it with other events in that time. For example: I can not compare the constitution of Ottoman Empire with the current European constitution , but I can compare the Ottoman Empire , with Britain Empire , with Russian Empire , French Empire and Spanish empire … because all of these Empires exist in the same time scale : 16th till 19th century.
2- We should compare the situation of every community with the rest of people. For example, in 11the century an Egyptian ruler claim that he is ‘’the god’’ and all other religion should worship him. He invaded Palestine and murdered many Muslims, Christian and Jews. He stopped by large Islamic army from Iraq and he was killed by Muslims.
This accident considered one of reasons of Crusaders war, because they count the number of Christian victims and they ignored what this crazy Egyptian ruler did with Muslims and Jews.

I will provide some examples about historical Jews-Muslims relations:

- Roman did not let the Jews to live in Jerusalem, and they rejected to give the city to Muslims till they sign agreement declared that no Jews is allowed to live in this City. After few years, Jews are allowed to build their quarter in this city by the help of Muslims.
- During crusaders wars in ME (especially after the massacre of Jerusalem), Jews and Muslims united and they fought bravely the crusaders. After Saladin liberated Jerusalem in 1187, he built first the Jews Quarter.
- Jews golden age was in Spain for 800 years. Muslims canceled ‘’the cloth code’’ of Jews and let them to be active community in the Islamic civiliastaion. This golden age end in 1495, when Spanish kicked out the Moorish, so Jews faced the same fate of Muslims. Ottoman Empire sent many ships to Spain to save the Jews from the hands of the church and let them to settle in Turkey, Syria, Palestine, Egypt …..
- Ottoman Empire welcomed the Jews of Russia from 1860 till 1882. They built two Jews cities in Palestine by the help of native people: Beteh Teqwa and Hudaira. Tis two cities are considered the oldest two Israeli cities now.
- During 2WW, Albanian and Turkish saved many Jews families from the NAZI.
- During Islamic golden ages, Baghdad 10th century, ten thousands of Jews settled in Baghdad. They contributed in different sciences and translations of ancient literature.
-
May be some Jews communities suffer from time to time through centuries, which is the case of other communities also, but surely they have good luck to live among Muslims than to live under control of the church of middle ages. This is what the former Israeli president said (Ezer Wiseman)

Here you can find more academic information about Jews and Christian under Islamic rule in middle ages.

http://www.worldcatlibraries.org/wcpa/ow/ab92b7630fca3a9ea19afeb4da09e526.html

Academic information about Dhimmi in Islam (protected people)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhimmi

Bilal, while I would agree that Europian Christians were certianly guilty of a greater cruelty to jews then Muslims pre-1900's, the rosey picture you paint for Jews under Muslim rule is not at all historically honest.

 

[sid_galt]

You asked about proof that Palestinian forced to leave their homes, and I provided it from Israeli sources including the personal book of Rabin... unfortunately you changed the argument again!

Sorry I was not clear enough. I meant evidence that Palestinians were forcefully evicted at the time Israel was created before the Arabs started the war. Can you provide evidence for that?

arab-israeli war

At this time (1922) the population of Palestine consisted of approximately 589,200 Muslims, 83,800 Jews and 71,500 Christians. However, this area became the center of Zionist aspirations for a Jewish homeland or state, and gradually saw a large influx of Jewish immigrants. (most of whom were fleeing the increasing persecution in Europe) This immigration drew immediate and violent opposition from local Arabs.

Under the uncompromising leadership of Haj Amin al-Husseini, the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, the local Arabs rebelled against the British, and attacked the growing Jewish population repeatedly. These sporadic attacks began with the Jerusalem pogrom of April, 1920 and Jaffa riots (or "Hurani Riots") of 1921. During the riots in Palestine of 1929, 67 Jews were massacred in Hebron, and most of the survivors were driven out. During the Great Uprising from 1936 to 1939, Arab general strikes and riots targeted both the British and Jews alike.

Any wonder that the Jews wanted their own state and fought against the Arabs?

http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_independence_arab_countries.php

Immediately after the adoption of United Nations Resolution 181 (II) on November 29, 1947, to partition the country into Jewish and Arab states with Jerusalem as a corpus separatum, Arab delegates declared their opposition to partition and their determination to fight it by force if necessary. Palestinian Arabs (including veterans of the 1936-9 Arab Revolt, members of Arab youth organizations, and police) quickly initiated hostilities against the Jewish population. They were soon joined by volunteers from neighboring Arab states. Jewish forces were organized mostly in the Haganah (underground militia) with a fulltime component of about 4,000, most of those members of the Palmach.

The early Arab attacks resembled the Arab Revolt of 1936-9, with attacks on villages and terrorism in the cities. A volunteer "Arab Liberation Army" led by the Syrian Fawzi el Kawukji attacked in the Jezreel Valley, while volunteers from Jebel Druze staged an attack near Haifa. Both were unsuccessful.

But on May 15, 1948 with the termination of the Mandate, the declaration of the State of Israel, and the British departure, the states of the Arab League (armies from Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, Iraq, Egypt, and a token force from Saudi Arabia) invaded the new country with the declared intent of destroying it.

The Arabs started the war against Israel and Israel staunchly defended itself. As I said before, trouble to the general populace is inevitable during war.

 

[sid_galt]

I will provide some examples about historical Jews-Muslims relations:

- Roman did not let the Jews to live in Jerusalem, and they rejected to give the city to Muslims till they sign agreement declared that no Jews is allowed to live in this City. After few years, Jews are allowed to build their quarter in this city by the help of Muslims.
- During crusaders wars in ME (especially after the massacre of Jerusalem), Jews and Muslims united and they fought bravely the crusaders. After Saladin liberated Jerusalem in 1187, he built first the Jews Quarter.
- Jews golden age was in Spain for 800 years. Muslims canceled ‘’the cloth code’’ of Jews and let them to be active community in the Islamic civiliastaion. This golden age end in 1495, when Spanish kicked out the Moorish, so Jews faced the same fate of Muslims. Ottoman Empire sent many ships to Spain to save the Jews from the hands of the church and let them to settle in Turkey, Syria, Palestine, Egypt …..
- Ottoman Empire welcomed the Jews of Russia from 1860 till 1882. They built two Jews cities in Palestine by the help of native people: Beteh Teqwa and Hudaira. Tis two cities are considered the oldest two Israeli cities now.
- During 2WW, Albanian and Turkish saved many Jews families from the NAZI.
- During Islamic golden ages, Baghdad 10th century, ten thousands of Jews settled in Baghdad. They contributed in different sciences and translations of ancient literature.

Any Sources for this information?

 

[Hurkyl]

According to Wikipedia, Hadrian essentially banned Judaism after a bloody revolt around 135 AD, but the Byzantines had already reversed that by the 5th century.

(Note that the Byzantines were the Christian...)

 

[Bilal]

I accept the first link, but surely the second link is just Zionist propaganda, if you would like I can show thousands of Palestinian propaganda links? To be honest, we should refer to trusted links only! Unless if I want to prove anti Zionism views by using their sources or if you want to prove anti Palestinian views from Palestinian sources. By following this strategy , we can keep the high level of the discussions.

From your first source:

((At this time (1922) the population of Palestine consisted of approximately 589,200 Muslims, 83,800 Jews and 71,500 Christians. However, this area became the center of Zionist aspirations for a Jewish homeland or state, and gradually saw a large influx of Jewish immigrants. (most of whom were fleeing the increasing persecution in Europe) This immigration drew immediate and violent opposition from local Arabs.))

It is clear who the source of the problems: the Zionism project to create Jews State one land of other nation ignoring the rights of Muslims and Christine. By the way, many repels in that time were Christian Palestinian, and one of their leader called Faud Hujazi (from Hebron) was hanged in the jail of Acca by the British occupation forces.

((Right after the UN partition plan was approved, heavy fighting broke out in Palestine. The British Army frequently intervened, but as the end of British involvement in Palestine drew nearer and attacks on them by Irgun and Lehi increased, their intervention grew steadily more inconsistent and reluctant.

On December 18 the Palmach, the kibbutz-based force of the Haganah commanded by Moshe Dayan, attacked the village of Khissas. Three weeks later the first Arab irregulars arrived and the Arab leadership began to organize Palestinians in order to wage guerrilla war against the Jewish forces.))

It is clear who started to attack after the UN partition plan? Irgun, Lihi and Hagnah, after 3 weeks of Zionist attacks , the Palestinian started to organize themselves to fight back!

((The April 9 massacre of at least 109 Arabs at the village of Deir Yassin inflamed public opinion in Arab countries, providing those countries further reason for sending regular troops into the conflict. ))

Arab countries decided to join the fighting after the Zionists murdered all the citizens of the village Dair Yassin. The kidnapped many girls and raped them in public in western Jerusalem to terrorize the Palestinian, such barbarism forced thousands of Arab to participate and to protect the Palestinian civilians.

((To lift the siege, the Jewish forces (guided by the American Army Colonel David (Mickey) Marcus) constructed the Burma Road (named for the road built by the Allies from Burma to China during World War II..))

Many American and European participate the fighting against Palestinian people, so why you think it is legal for them to fight with Zionists, but another Arab are not allowed?

(( On May 10, Golda Meir represented the Yishuv in the last of a long series of clandestine meetings between the Zionists and Transjordan's King Abdullah. Whereas for months there had been a tacit agreement between the Zionists and Transjordan to prevent the establishment of a Palestinian state, with Transjordan taking over the Arab areas, at the May 10 meeting Abdullah offered the Yishuv leadership only autonomy within an enlarged Hashemite kingdom. This was unacceptable to the Jewish leadership. ))

In fact Arab governments helped the Zionists more than their help to Palestine. Zionists made many secret agreements with kings of (Jordan, Iraq, Saudi Arabia and Egypt). They were puppet in the hands of UK, but also they could not stop the anger of their nations after Dair Yassin massacre.

((In fact, the Arab forces were inferior to the IDF. By mid-May 1948 the IDF was fielding 65,000 troops; by early spring 1949, 115,000. The Arab armies had an estimated 40,000 troops in July 1948, rising to 55,000 in October 1948, and slightly more by the spring of 1949. Of the Arab aircraft, only less than a dozen fighters and three to four bombers saw action, the rest were unserviceable. With only a dozen or so airplanes the IDF achieved air superiority by the fall of 1948. And the IDF had superiority in firepower and knowledgeable personnel, many of whom had seen action in WWII. Source: "Righteous Victims: A History of the Zionist-Arab Conflict, 1881-2001", Benny Morris (2001), pp. 217-18.))

I wish you can read how the gap between the two forces, even after Arab nations joined the war! Suppose the rest of Arab did not participate, then the Zionists will stop after the death of last Palestinian.

I wish to read your source carefully … it contain many interested information from Israeli sources

arab-israeli war

http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_independence_arab_countries.php

The Arabs started the war against Israel and Israel staunchly defended itself. As I said before, trouble to the general populace is inevitable during war.

 

[Bilal]

It is well known that Byzantines banned Jews to live in Jerusalem (not the rest of Palestine) till Muslims got the city through agreement.

According to Wikipedia, Hadrian essentially banned Judaism after a bloody revolt around 135 AD, but the Byzantines had already reversed that by the 5th century.

(Note that the Byzantines were the Christian...)

 

[Bilal]

Christian and Jews under Islam

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhimmi

This is ''extremists" Zionist site (full by pro Zionism propaganda) but they admit at least that Muslims lived tolerate with Jews in middle ages. If those extremist Zionist can not deny it, then surely you should believe in it!:

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Judaism/Sephardim.html

((In 409 CE, the Visigoths (Aryan Christians) conquered Spain and treated the Jews harshly. A canon was passed in 589 prohibiting the marriage of Jews and non-Jews. In 612, the Council of Toledo ordered the baptism of all Jews to take place with the next year. The practice of Judaism was outlawed in the Visigoth kingdom.))

((The situation improved in 711 when Spain fell under the rule of the Muslim Moors. Both Muslims and Jews built a civilization, based in Cordoba, known as Al-Andalus, which was more advanced than any civilization in Europe at that time. Jews were able to coexist peacefully with their neighbors; however, they were still treated as dhimmis, "People of the Book" (Jews and Christians) who are protected under Islamic law. Jews did not have complete autonomy and had to pay a special tax, the jizha , but were able to freely practice their religion.))

Rich Muslims pay Zakat (religious tax) also Rich Christian and Jews should pay Jijya if they do not want to join the army to defend the country. This money should go to help poor people in the country.

((The era of Muslim rule in Spain (8th-11th century) was considered the "Golden Age" for Spanish Jewry. Jewish intellectual and spiritual life flourished and many Jews served in Spanish courts. Jewish economic expansion was unparalleled. In Toledo, Jews were involved in translating Arabic texts to the romance languages, as well as translating Greek and Hebrew texts into Arabic. Jews also contributed to botany, geography, medicine, mathematics, poetry and philosophy.))


((By the mid-13th century, the Christians controlled most of Spain and increasingly forced Jews to convert to Christianity. Those who converted became known as Marranos or New Christians))

((Anti-Jewish riots broke out in 1391 in several Spanish cities and the situation worsened for the Jewish community. New Christians were tortured or killed in the Spanish Inquisition during the 15th century. Father Tomas de Torquemada felt that if the Jews remained in Spain, then they would influence the new converts to Christianity. After the capture of Granada from Muslim forces, Father Torquemada convinced King Ferdinand and Queen Isabella that the Jewish community was expendable. In 1492, Isabella and Ferdinand commanded that all Jews who refused to convert to Christianity be expelled from Spain. The Jews were given four months to leave Spain and were forced to sell their houses and businesses at low prices. It is estimated that 100,000 Jews left Spain at this time. The expulsion from Spain is commemorated every year by all Jews on the holiday of Tisha B’Av.))

((For hundreds of years, Sephardic Jews lived, as dhimmis, in relative peace with Muslim neighbors and rulers in North Africa and in the Ottoman Empire. They were considered second-class citizens, but were free to practice their own religion and participate in commerce. Similar to Spain and Portugal during the Golden Era, the Sephardic upper class in the Ottoman empire were employed as translators.

The Sephardic communities in the Arab world were more receptive to modernity than their Ashkenazi counterparts in Europe. The Zionist movement became popular among Sephardic Jews in North Africa. Many Sephardic rabbis in the Ottoman Empire supported Zionism and the Zionist movement spread to many Muslim countries in North Africa, such as in Egypt and Tunisia.))

Any Sources for this information?

 

[Hurkyl]

It might be well-known to you, but it ain't well-known to me.

From Wikipedia:

"The Byzantines cherished the city for its Christian history. However, in accordance with traditions of religious tolerance often found in the ancient East, Jews were allowed into it in the 5th century."

From one of Wikipedia's references:

324 — 638

The Byzantine Period
438
Empress Eudocia permits Jews to live in Jerusalem
614
Persian conquest of Jerusalem — They destroy most churches
and expel Jews
629
Recaptured by Byzantines.

638 — 1099

The Early Muslim Period

638
Six years after Mohammed's death, the Caliph Omar enters
Jerusalem and Jews are readmitted to Jerusalem

I quoted this last passage too, since it seems to be to what your version of history refers. (Forgetting earlier events) There is a questionmark about what happened between 629 and 638, though.


Anyways, another interesting line from Wikipedia:

Following the 1948 Arab-Israeli War, when a Palestinian-Arab state failed to materialize and the British Mandate of Palestine was invaded by Egypt and Jordan, Jerusalem was divided. The Western half of the New City became part of the new state of Israel, while the eastern half, along with the Old City, was annexed by Jordan. Jordan did not allow Jewish access to the Western Wall (known to non-Jews as the Wailing Wall) and Temple Mount, Judaism's holiest sites, in the Old City. Jordan constructed a slum within a few feet of the base of the Western Wall and used the area as a garbage dump, and converted some churches to mosques.

 

[Bilal]

Dear Hurkyl,

All my sources are western sources or Israeli. It is not necessary that I agree with them, because I am Palestinian and I have my own sources. If I present Palestinian sources, you have right to reject them, so I try to prove my views by using ONLY western or Zionist sources .

Here is the story of Jerusalem from Islamic and eastren christian sources:

The Christian leader of Jerusalem rejected to give the key of the city till he meet Omar (Muslims Khalifa) to sign agreement. Therefore Omar decided to come by himself to get the city and to save many lives. He traveled from Arabia to Palestine (around 1500 Km). During his long journey (on donkey and Camel) he divided the guide between himself and his servant. So Omar will ride the donkey and let his servant pull it for one day, and in the next day Omar pull the donkey and ask his servant to ride it, because both of them can not ride the donkey in the same time, and the Camel is used for carrying food and water.

Omar arrived Jerusalem after several weeks pulling the donkey and wearing old clothes. Byzantine soldiers shocked when they see the difference between their leaders and this man who defeated Persia and Byzantine Empire in the same time within few years.

The leader of Jerusalem welcomed Omar and they signed agreement called (Omerian promise)) which asked to protect the Christian of Jerusalem.. Etc. One of rules of the agreement mentioned that Jews should not stay in the city. After negotiation, they agree that Jews should not be allowed to stay the city during the next 10 years, and if they cause any troubles for Christian in future they should be expelled.

This means that no Jews are allowed to live in this city when they signed this agreement. May be Byzentine rulers changed their opinion after Persian invasion and decided to ban the Jews again?

There is a questionmark about what happened between 629 and 638, though.

 

[sid_galt]

I accept the first link, but surely the second link is just Zionist propaganda, if you would like I can show thousands of Palestinian propaganda links? To be honest, we should refer to trusted links only! Unless if I want to prove anti Zionism views by using their sources or if you want to prove anti Palestinian views from Palestinian sources. By following this strategy , we can keep the high level of the discussions.

Bilal, first of all, you provide no evidence that the second link is Zionist propaganda.

Secondly, what I quoted from that site is a fact. The Arab League of Nations attacked Israel first.

 

[klusener]

They attacked Israel because the land that they had been living in for many years had been taken away and they had a moral right as humans to defend it. If someone came to your house and told you that you had to leave because their Holy book says that Sid_galt's house is their house, would you leave without a fight?

 

[Joel]

Good discussion participants, let me first introduce myself. My name is Joel and I am a Jew living in Finland. I want to thank especially Bilal for providing many interesting references to Middle Eastern history and for sharing his personal experiences. I also want to comment on two of the discussed issues: the legal status of Gaza and The West Bank, and the claimed genocide of Palestinians.

I just read an article, by a lawyer from New York, David Storbin, who argued quite convincingly that the legal question is disputable to say the least:

...

CONCLUSION


Thus, under no circumstances can one legally argue that the land is occupied. West Bank and Gaza either belong to Israel based on the League's Mandate or past sovereignty of Jews over the land. Or in the alternative, there are two conflicting claims and the status of land is disputed. For this reason, in March 1994, U.S. Ambassador to the UN Madeleine Albright stated: "We simply do not support the description of the territories occupied by Israel in the 1967 War as occupied Palestinian territory." (15)

- Legal Status of West Bank, Gaza and East Jerusalem, David Storbin

He addresses many of the resolutions quoted in this discussion, so I would say it is worth a read.

Regarding the claimed genocide of Palestinians, I wonder if someone could provide a reliable source of how many Palestinians have been killed by Israelies in recent years? I recall an NGO presenting a figure close to 3000 after the year 2000 (including the security obstacle). Considering that 'genocide' is easily associated with the happenings in Rwanda and former Yugoslavia, where millions of people where slaughtered, I find it very misleading to speak about genocide or ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians today. Even if such selection of words no doubt has a media value, I would hope it would not be used to prevent an escalation of the conflict.

 

[stoned]

you are right klusener, however zionists will tell you that Palestine area was depopulated and no one lived there except few sheep.
after WW2 palestine was flooded with jews from around the world, and they simply stole that land from arabs.

 

[russ_watters]

There is a lot of rhetoric flying around in this thread and its gone a long way from where it started. I have just one question:

When was the country of "Palestine" founded?

 

[loseyourname]

They attacked Israel because the land that they had been living in for many years had been taken away and they had a moral right as humans to defend it. If someone came to your house and told you that you had to leave because their Holy book says that Sid_galt's house is their house, would you leave without a fight?

I thought it was the UN that created the state of Israel, not a holy book.

 

[stoned]

When was the country of "Palestine" founded?

there were people living there hundred of thousands of them making living and they were peacfull.technically palestine did not exist as a state but that does not mean you can just move there and take their land.
it is simple as 2+2 = 4, jews came and trouble began.

 

[Informal Logic]

There are more than 70 UN resolutions ask Israel to stop building settlements, to let the refugees to return and to withdraw from WB and Gaza, additionally, USA used the VETO 79 times to protect the Israeli crimes in UN.

Why UN can not force Israel to respect these resolutions and to solve the problem as they did with Iraq and Yugoslavia?

The answer: because USA rejects completely to let the UN to make any pressure on Israel. Therefore, the reason that the conflict continue for decades is the American policy who give Israel all possible support to bomb their neighbors and to annihilate the Palestinian in the sake of ‘’Biblical Pure Jews state’’.

In fact this American double standard...

You can go back and forth on topics such as this forever. But this one point, that the U.S. is biased in favor of Israel, because of Christian/Bible beliefs. Can anyone tell me this is not true? I don't care whether you think it is right. Just prove to me that it is not true. Peace cannot be achieved this way.

 

[russ_watters]

You can go back and forth on topics such as this forever. But this one point, that the U.S. is biased in favor of Israel, because of Christian/Bible beliefs. Can anyone tell me this is not true?

It isn't true. The US is biased toward Israel for two reasons:

1. The persecution (genocide) of the Jews in WWII.
2. The fact that currently, one side engages in terrorism and the other does not.

 

[russ_watters]

...technically palestine did not exist as a state...

Good - so the first independent (ie, not part of a larger empire such as the British or Ottoman), modern (in the past few thousand years) country to exist on that land is Israel. No such country as "Palestine" has ever existed. Glad we have that straight.

Follow-up question:

Was there ever an attempt by anyone to create a country called "Palestine"?

 

[stoned]

2. The fact that currently, one side engages in terrorism and the other does not.

you must be kidding as to believing that mossad is not involved in terrorist activity ?
by the way how do you call killing kids on the streets and demolishing homes ? that is TERRORISM.

 

[Informal Logic]

It isn't true. The US is biased toward Israel for two reasons:

1. The persecution (genocide) of the Jews in WWII.
2. The fact that currently, one side engages in terrorism and the other does not.

What you state is your justification (why you think it is right) for US bias (and both are arguable), but you do not provide proof that the US is NOT biased toward Israel on bases of Judo-Christianity beliefs. No one can prove this isn't the case, because it is the basis. And the resulting bias is why people don't like the US.

 

[sid_galt]

What you state is your justification (why you think it is right) for US bias (and both are arguable), but you do not provide proof that the US is NOT biased toward Israel on bases of Judo-Christianity beliefs. No one can prove this isn't the case, because it is the basis. And the resulting bias is why people don't like the US.

It is you who have claimed that the US is biased towards Israel because of Judeo-Christian beliefs. The burden of proof lies on you.

 

[russ_watters]

you must be kidding as to believing that mossad is not involved in terrorist activity ?
by the way how do you call killing kids on the streets and demolishing homes ? that is TERRORISM.

Perhaps you should look into the definition of the word. It isn't a word you can arbitrarily attach to whatever you feel like attaching it to.

What you state is your justification (why you think it is right) for US bias (and both are arguable), but you do not provide proof that the US is NOT biased toward Israel on bases of Judo-Christianity beliefs. No one can prove this isn't the case, because it is the basis. And the resulting bias is why people don't like the US.

Besides the burden of proof thing already posted, the US isn't the only Christian country in the world.

http://www.weeklystandard.com/content/public/articles/000/000/001/225tpziw.asp is a good article with another good reason, and a little bit of my #1.

 

[loseyourname]

So the US is biased in favor of Israel and all of the arab nations in the middle east are biased against Israel. Whoever you think is more at fault just shows your bias. For the most part, all nations align themselves at this point with other nations that are part of the same civilization.

 

[Informal Logic]

The first observation in regard to this thread is that it focuses on one incident in a chain of incidents in the past, and that will similarly occur in the future. Nothing against Bilal or the person this thread is in reference to, but all the time and energy on this one incident tends to muddle the real issues. We can begin by looking at various historic events, decision makers, and foreign policy/goals at different times and how the Palestinian/Israeli conflict has evolved.

For example, the argument that the US supports Israel because of the Holocaust is illogical. Who perpetrated the genocide? It wasn’t the US. Why did the US become a champion of Israel, and why has the US retained responsibility for preservation of Israel the way it has? Is it to deal with a displaced people? If so, does a country need to be formed, and why does it need to be formed in the Holy Land? After all, Arabs didn’t perpetrate the genocide either. We can begin with the US President at that time, which was Harry S. Truman. There are many publications on the topic, for example the book:

Harry S. Truman and the Founding of Israel
by Michael T. Benson

Benson's book articulates exactly how Truman's deep religious convictions guided--even determined--the U.S. policy toward Israel, leading to the official recognition of its independence. Without that recognition, the Nation of Israel might not have lasted a week--let alone 50 years. Truman was willing to go against the current of his most trusted foreign policy advisers, who were absolutely opposed to the establishment of a Jewish state in the Middle East. These advisers argued that however humanitarian a Jewish homeland might seem, such a proposition posed a real risk to American interests in the Near East and to United States national security in the late 1940s. Despite their continued opposition, Truman stood his ground on his pro-Israel outlook, which was an outgrowth of the president’s religious upbringing and his familiarity with the Bible.

While a need for a base in the Middle East has also been a factor in US foreign policy, the Judo-Christian beliefs have been the prevailing, underlying basis for US creation and continued support of Israel. Why hasn’t the US developed better alliances/bases with Arab countries? Could there be a resistance by Arab nations of Western imperialism, culture, and religion? Could there be more connection felt between Christians with Judaism? Or worse, could there be anti-Muslim sentiment created by special interests (religious), the media, etc.?

You can read the reviews by right-wing Christians about Benson’s book, and see current support of political leaders and policy based on religious beliefs in support of Israel. In fact, many Christians make monetary contributions directly to Israel, for example to rebuild the Temple Mount per Biblical prophecy. Between this and a significant Jewish constituency in the US, if the general secular population in the US understood how much of their tax dollars have gone toward aid to Israel, or could make the connection between the US bias and terrorism, I wonder how much support there would be.

The bottom line is there is a bias. It is about protecting oil, but on US terms, which is based in large part on religious premises. It is this bias that has changed a geographical conflict into a religious conflict. It is a bias that prevents peace in the Middle East, and causes these people to feel hatred toward the US. It is the cause of terrorism.

Aside from being in denial if you don't believe Christianity in the US plays a large role in this conflict, why are you all consumed with debate about a single incident like this? You are looking at a tree and not seeing the forest.

 

[stoned]

Perhaps you should look into the definition of the word. It isn't a word you can arbitrarily attach to whatever you feel like attaching it to.

Oh ! I see where you going with this. Terrorists are only arabs, jews are the innocent victims right ? you know what you can "educate " naive young people here in America but I'm not young and not naive.
i can tell you that first terrorist in M.East were actually Jews they started all of it. In years after WW2 most of terror acts were perpertated by newly arrived jews and they were affiliated into Stern Gang,Irgun Zvai Leumi,Haganah.They terrorized not only palestinians but British,Turkish diplomats and soldiers. To gain internationnal compation ( again ) and blame arabs they bombed SS Patria ship which had arrived in Haifa with jewish refuges from Europe.In that inncident almost 300 their own people died .
Of course now you going to accuse me of anti semitism because I'm telling the truth right ? by the way Palestinians are semitic as much as Jews are so how can I be anti-semitic?