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Like air resistance? IDK, it's an easier problem in a vacuum.Melbourne Guy said:so wouldn't it be some other factor reducing their range
Like air resistance? IDK, it's an easier problem in a vacuum.Melbourne Guy said:so wouldn't it be some other factor reducing their range
gary350 said:...heaver bullets maintain speed longer but gravity pulls them down sooner.
I think what he's trying to say is that with a heavier bullet, the muzzle velocity is slower so the time of flight out to a fixed range is longer. Since you usually don't care about how much the bullet drops in a given time, you care how much it drops at a given range, this means that a heavier bullet suffers more bullet drop (but retains a higher percentage of initial velocity and energy).Melbourne Guy said:Does gravity work like that, @gary350? I thought things fall at the same rate, irrespective of their mass, so wouldn't it be some other factor reducing their range (if that's the outcome, I think that's what you're saying)?
Sure, you could do that, but that significantly decreases the size of projectile (and thus quantity of explosive filler). In addition, spinning a projectile tends to reduce dispersion compared to a fin stabilized non-spinning one, though you could angle the fins a bit to induce spin that way.Stormer said:Why are artillery guns still rifled? You would think it would be cheaper to manufacture and it would get higher muzzle velocity and longer ranges with a smooth bore barrel and discarding sabot fin stabilized projectiles like in anti tank guns.
The word entirely is perhaps too broad.cjl said:They are quite expensive though, so I'm not sure they'll ever entirely replace older style unguided shells.
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Discarding sabot rounds are designed for obtaining and retaining high-velocity for their role of armor piercing. Artillery rounds don't require high velocity and the reduced diameter of the sabot round for a given bore diameter would also reduce the explosive payload of the round.Stormer said:Why are artillery guns still rifled? You would think it would be cheaper to manufacture and it would get higher muzzle velocity and longer ranges with a smooth bore barrel and discarding sabot fin stabilized projectiles like in anti tank guns.
Guided projectiles are great for things like buildings, bunkers, radar stations, and sometimes armored vehicles, but are poor choices for dealing with infantry and large numbers of motorized forces unless they have virtually no air defense.anorlunda said:I think it is interesting to watch what happens. If it takes only 1 guided projectile to destroy the target rather than 100 or 1000 dumb ones, then it is probably cheaper, and has fewer incidental victims. The same argument applies to smart bombs, or even to cruise missiles. Expense versus accuracy.
Yes they do require high velocity. That is how they get their range.Drakkith said:Discarding sabot rounds are designed for obtaining and retaining high-velocity for their role of armor piercing. Artillery rounds don't require high velocity and the reduced diameter of the sabot round for a given bore diameter would also reduce the explosive payload of the round.
No they do not. As an example, the U.S. 155 mm M1 "Long Tom" artillery gun from WW2 has a muzzle velocity of 853 m/s and a modern M777 howitzer has a muzzle velocity of 827 m/s. Most artillery I've looked at has a muzzle velocity around these numbers. In contrast, the General Dynamics KEW-A1 APFSDS round has a muzzle velocity of 1740 m/s, more than twice the M1 artillery shell. Virtually all of the tank KE ammunition on this page have a muzzle velocity around 1700 m/s, far in excess what artillery has.Stormer said:Yes they do require high velocity. That is how they get their range.
He's not entirely of base here. A higher muzzle velocity, all else being equal, will generally result in a longer range. The M777 with standard dumb ammunition has roughly equivalent (or slightly less) range than shells fired by the M1. Even the rocket-assisted M549 shells only get slightly greater range because there is only so much room at add a propellant without sacrificing space for warhead.Drakkith said:No they do not. As an example, the U.S. 155 mm M1 "Long Tom" artillery gun from WW2 has a muzzle velocity of 853 m/s and a modern M777 howitzer has a muzzle velocity of 827 m/s. Most artillery I've looked at has a muzzle velocity around these numbers. In contrast, the General Dynamics KEW-A1 APFSDS round has a muzzle velocity of 1740 m/s, more than twice the M1 artillery shell. Virtually all of the tank KE ammunition on this page have a muzzle velocity around 1700 m/s, far in excess what artillery has.
A muzzle velocity of around 800 m/s is not considered to be high velocity.
Having said all of the above, you can't just go about making artillery rounds shaped like broom handles to try to get the same mass of high explosive, either. The shape of the explosive can matter as much as the quantity. It can affect any shaping the designer wants to do with the blast (e.g., make sure energy is directed toward a target and not everywhere all at once) and can affect aerodynamic stability.Stormer said:Yes they do require high velocity. That is how they get their range.
And the reduced diameter can be compensated by having a longer projectile so you get the same payload volume in the shell.
Certainly, but the fact remains that artillery doesn't achieve its range by being high-velocity, because it isn't high-velocity. The 700 - 900 m/s 'standard' muzzle velocity range seems to be a sweet spot where you get enough velocity for long effective range while keeping the amount of required propellant and barrel wear to an acceptable level, along with tolerable gun construction costs. To go up in velocity you either need to increase the amount propellant and/or barrel length, which are both serious considerations to take into account, or make your projectile lighter, which reduces its damage potential.boneh3ad said:He's not entirely of base here. A higher muzzle velocity, all else being equal, will generally result in a longer range.
I think the main issue with the Abrams APFSDS round is that it is a fundamentally different type of round than the common artillery rounds. The APFSDS round is designed to penetrate armor using its very high speed. So it has to be nearly pinpoint accurate to hit a relatively small target (vs the use of artillery for area suppression) AND has to retain enough velocity to penetrate an armored vehicle. These two requirements are what limit its effective range, though not its maximum range. The table below shows the velocity of several APFSDS rounds vs range:boneh3ad said:I believe the main gun on an M1A2 Abrams firing M829 APFSDS rounds still only has an effective range of about 3 km. It only about about 20% as much as a standard M795 howitzer shell, though, so it's easier to get up to those speeds but will slow down more quickly due to drag versus a heavier projectile of the same form. It's not apples-to-apples.
I thought the point of artillery is to affect a area, so a equal dispersion of frag going in every direction.boneh3ad said:The shape of the explosive can matter as much as the quantity. It can affect any shaping the designer wants to do with the blast (e.g., make sure energy is directed toward a target and not everywhere all at once) and can affect aerodynamic stability.
If you are using a brass case anyway the total length does not have to be so much longer because you can put the sabot projectile all the way down to the bottom of the case with the propellant around it just like in a saboted tank shell.boneh3ad said:Breach loading a long rod means you would have to reduce the elevation of your howitzer to fit the shell in the back if it gets too long.
Okay. Let's say you have a barrel that's 150 mm inner diameter. What are the dimensions of your sabot shell? How much explosive does it have in it? What is its approximate muzzle velocity? How does it compare to a normal artillery shell of roughly 150 mm?Stormer said:I also think a slim sabot artillery shell with the same weight as a normal artillery shell would get a better ballistic coefficient and that alone would give it a longer range, plus the higher speed because of no losses going to spinn up the projectile. And all of that with a cheaper barrel to make because of no rifling, and probably a longer barrel life too because of the lack of rifling.
Sure, but that doesn't include up and to the sides. If you have a long, rod-shaped projectile, it would be difficult to shape a charge that does anything other than send shrapnel out horizontally when detonated at ground level, when what you really want is an air burst that sends a cone of shrapnel down over a wide area.Stormer said:I thought the point of artillery is to affect a area, so a equal dispersion of frag going in every direction.
You still have to carefully balance that projectile to make sure it is stable, which is not a given if you also have to pack a warhead in there.Stormer said:And aerodynamic stability is the reason a long slender sabot dart can be shot accurately without spin stabilization. A normal artillery shell on the other hand would tumble without spin stabilization.
Stormer said:If you are using a brass case anyway the total length does not have to be so much longer because you can put the sabot projectile all the way down to the bottom of the case with the propellant around it just like in a saboted tank shell.
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Stormer said:I also think a slim sabot artillery shell with the same weight as a normal artillery shell would get a better ballistic coefficient and that alone would give it a longer range, plus the higher speed because of no losses going to spinn up the projectile. And all of that with a cheaper barrel to make because of no rifling, and probably a longer barrel life too because of the lack of rifling.
That's really all relative though.Drakkith said:Certainly, but the fact remains that artillery doesn't achieve its range by being high-velocity, because it isn't high-velocity.
Why would you assume that? I would think you want the widest shell possible that can still remain aerodynamically stable and fit in the barrel with the fins (that can be folding). So go as wide as you can until it is starting to show signs of being aerodynamically unstable while still keeping a decent volume for payload, wall thickness and total length with the casing and propellant.boneh3ad said:Let's assume we want the same aspect ratio as the M829 penetrator in the form of a howitzer projectile.
Starstreak is an anti-aircraft weapon system. Its subprojectiles are designed to physically impact the target and THEN explode. Since they are already inside the target, and the target is a highly complex piece of machinery that can be mission-killed with very little damage, especially from the inside, the required charge and amount of shrapnel is relatively low. Hence you can use a very slender dart-like projectile with only a pound of explosive.Stormer said:And when it comes to slender darts and fragmentation just look at Starstreak. The subprojectiles there seems to disperse the fragments just fine.
If you're making the projectile larger, then why have the sabot at all? The entire point of the sabot is to align the projectile with the center of the barrel, capture as much of the force of the propellant as possible, and then drop away so that the thin, high-velocity projectile isn't slowed down by it. That is literally the only point of the sabot. If you're going to make the projectile larger, just make it the same diameter of the bore and be done with it. A sabot doesn't give you high-velocity. A lightweight projectile does.Stormer said:Why would you assume that? I would think you want the widest shell possible that can still remain aerodynamically stable and fit in the barrel with the fins (that can be folding). So go as wide as you can until it is starting to show signs of being aerodynamically unstable while still keeping a decent volume for payload, wall thickness and total length with the casing and propellant.
That is supported by this article by The Geneva International Centre for Humanitarian Demining (GICHD), entitled Explosive Weapon Effects. From page 52:Stormer said:And remember that a artilleri projectile will never come 90 degrees straight down to the ground so a radial frag pattern will still hit the ground (but maybe as much as almost half the frag can be wasted by going up in the air and loosing to much energy before it comes falling back to the ground).
Many AA missiles also have proximity burst. To shower the target with frag.Drakkith said:Starstreak is an anti-aircraft weapon system. Its subprojectiles are designed to physically impact the target and THEN explode.
Because my point was to make a projectile that did not need spin stabilization to be stable in flight. So you don't waste energy spinning the projectile and therefore getting higher velocity and longer range. And also to get rid of the rifling of the barrel to make it cheaper to manufacture and maybe also give it a longer service life. To get a aerodynamically stable projectile without spin stabilization you need to make it higher aspect ratio and therefore a sabot for it not to need so high chamber pressure to get it up to speed. But you do not need as high of a aspect ratio as a APDS to achieve this. Plus the benefit of getting a higher ballistic coefficient with a higher aspect ratio shell than a normal artillery shell will also increase the range.Drakkith said:If you're making the projectile larger, then why have the sabot at all?
Stormer said:Because my point was to make a projectile that did not need spin stabilization to be stable in flight. So you don't waste energy spinning the projectile and therefore getting higher velocity and longer range. And also to get rid of the rifling of the barrel to make it cheaper to manufacture and maybe also give it a longer service life. To get a aerodynamically stable projectile without spin stabilization you need to make it higher aspect ratio and therefore a sabot for it not to need so high chamber pressure to get it up to speed. But you do not need as high of a aspect ratio as a APDS to achieve this. Plus the benefit of getting a higher ballistic coefficient with a higher aspect ratio shell than a normal artillery shell will also increase the range.
Stormer said:Many AA missiles also have proximity burst. To shower the target with frag.
Yes. But the topic of this thread was to increase the range of artillery. If other aspects like damage potential suffers that is a different topic. And you can have different shells to preform different tasks. And that is another advantage of going with a sabot shell, because that way you still keep the caliber of the gun so you could also shoot a traditionally shaped shell with the same gun with finns to impart the spinn on it for stabilization. So you could have the same smoothbore gun and use the traditional shaped but finned shell for shorter ranges, and use the longer non spinning sabot shell for longer range targets.Drakkith said:Standard artillery shells that are spin stabilized have advantages in cost and damage potential, while other rounds have advantages in other areas like range and accuracy.
Is it even an artillery shell if it can no longer perform the basic duties of an artillery shell?Stormer said:Yes. But the topic of this thread was to increase the range of artillery. If other aspects like damage potential suffers that is a different topic.
I'm a bit late to the party with this, but be careful with those darts as references. That whole system is optimized to give insane single point penetration at close (few km) range, and there is very little thought given for anything above 5km.Stormer said:I also think a slim sabot artillery shell with the same weight as a normal artillery shell would get a better ballistic coefficient and that alone would give it a longer range,


...to the last I grapple with thee; from hell's heart I stab at thee; for hate's sake I spit my last breath at theeRive said:I'm a bit late to the party with this, but be careful with those darts as references. That whole system is optimized to give insane single point penetration at close (few km) range, and there is very little thought given for anything above 5km.
Also, don't get carried away with those long darts
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Part of that is also the nature of modern armored combat. Beyond that range, the tank sensors and drew may have difficulty picking out their targets on the battlefield, unless you're up on a ridgeline, hull down in a revetment, and your enemy is making a blind charge across open terrain without artillery or air support.Rive said:I'm a bit late to the party with this, but be careful with those darts as references. That whole system is optimized to give insane single point penetration at close (few km) range, and there is very little thought given for anything above 5km.
Long range howitzers are smoothbore exactly because rifling converts some of the projectile's energy to rotation. I read this recently but dont remember where. Must be easy to verify though.Stormer said:Why are artillery guns still rifled? You would think it would be cheaper to manufacture and it would get higher muzzle velocity and longer ranges with a smooth bore barrel and discarding sabot fin stabilized projectiles like in anti tank guns.
I'd say 'tested' instead of 'fielded'. None of these weapons are in operational status as far as I know, and I believe the U.S. Navy has postponed or stopped further research and development on railguns for the moment.sbrothy said:Apropos I also seem to remember that both the US and China has fielded naval railguns. There are some impressive videos on youtube.
You may well be right. Something about the gun's inability to keep shooting no?Drakkith said:I'd say 'tested' instead of 'fielded'. None of these weapons are in operational status as far as I know, and I believe the U.S. Navy has postponed or stopped further research and development on railguns for the moment.