Index notation and partial derivative

Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the use of index notation in the context of partial derivatives, specifically focusing on the expression $$\frac {\partial{u_i}} {dx_j}\frac {\partial{u_i}} {dx_j}$$. Participants are exploring the implications of this expression, including whether it results in a scalar, vector, or tensor, and the correct interpretation of summation indices.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants clarify that the expression is not an equation but rather an expression, suggesting it could be interpreted as a double summation over indices.
  • There is uncertainty regarding whether the expression always results in a scalar, with one participant questioning the sufficiency of information to affirm this.
  • Another participant proposes that if ##u## represents a velocity vector, the partial derivatives could yield a single number, a vector, or a tensor, indicating a lack of consensus on the outcome.
  • One participant suggests that the expression could also be represented as $$\left(\frac{\partial u_i} {\partial x_j} \right)^2$$, while also noting the distinction between partial and ordinary derivatives.
  • There is a mention of the possibility of writing a second partial derivative, indicating further complexity in the interpretation of the notation.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the nature of the expression and its results, with no clear consensus on whether it yields a scalar, vector, or tensor. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the implications of the index notation and the definitions involved.

Contextual Notes

Participants highlight potential ambiguities in the definitions of scalars, vectors, and tensors, as well as the interpretation of summation indices in the context of partial derivatives.

sanson
Messages
3
Reaction score
0
Hi all,

I am having some problems expanding an equation with index notation. The equation is the following:

$$\frac {\partial{u_i}} {dx_j}\frac {\partial{u_i}} {dx_j} $$

I considering if summation index is done over i=1,2,3 and then over j=1,2,3 or ifit does not apply.
Any hint on this would be much appreciated
 
Physics news on Phys.org
:welcome:

That's not an equation, that's an expression. I imagine it means:

$$\sum_{i = 1}^{N} \sum_{j = 1}^{N} \frac {\partial{u_i}} {dx_j}\frac {\partial{u_i}} {dx_j} $$ Where the order of the summations is not important.
 
Dear Perok,

Thanks for both, the correction and the explanation. I imagine the same solution but I am not always so sure with the index notation applied to partial derivatives...

to further clarify, that expression gives always an scalar? Or there is not enough information to affirm that?
 
sanson said:
Dear Perok,

Thanks for both, the correction and the explanation. I imagine the same solution but I am not always so sure with the index notation applied to partial derivatives...

to further clarify, that expression gives always an scalar? Or there is not enough information to affirm that?
It depends how you define a scalar.
 
Let’s say ##u## is the velocity vector and the partial derivative are spatial derivative of the velocity vector. I am wondering if I am getting a single number, a vector or a tensor.
 
sanson said:
Let’s say ##u## is the velocity vector and the partial derivative are spatial derivative of the velocity vector. I am wondering if I am getting a single number, a vector or a tensor.
A number.
 
sanson said:
Hi all,

I am having some problems expanding an equation with index notation. The equation is the following:

$$\frac {\partial {u_i}} {dx_j}\frac {\partial{u_i}} {dx_j} $$

I considering if summation index is done over i=1,2,3 and then over j=1,2,3 or ifit does not apply.
Any hint on this would be much appreciated
With the corrections shown below, the expression above looks to me like it could also be written as $$\left(\frac{\partial u_i} {\partial x_j} \right)^2$$
Note that in partial derivatives you don't mix the partial derivative symbol ##\partial## with the ##d## used in ordinary derivatives.

OTOH, if the intent was to write a 2nd partial derivative, it could be written like this:
$$\frac {\partial}{ \partial x_j} \left(\frac {\partial u_i} {\partial x_j}\right) $$
 

Similar threads

  • · Replies 4 ·
Replies
4
Views
2K
  • · Replies 6 ·
Replies
6
Views
3K
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
2K
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
3K
  • · Replies 7 ·
Replies
7
Views
3K
  • · Replies 4 ·
Replies
4
Views
3K
Replies
3
Views
2K
  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
2K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
3K
  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
4K