Invariant mass plots for resonance 'particles'

Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the concept of invariant mass in particle interactions, specifically in the context of the reaction p + π- → n + π- + π + and the implications of invariant mass plots for resonance particles like the rho meson. Participants explore the nature of invariant mass, its calculation, and the appearance of a continuous range of energies in the context of invariant mass spectra.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants question how a spectrum of rest mass energies can arise when invariant mass is defined as invariant, given that the rest mass of pions is well known.
  • Others clarify that the invariant mass of the system is not simply the sum of the invariant masses of the individual pions, but rather the invariant mass of the entire system, which includes kinetic contributions.
  • A participant notes that the invariant mass of a system can be non-zero even for two photons unless they are collinear, referencing the Higgs boson discovery as an example.
  • Some participants express confusion about the continuous range of energies observed in the invariant mass plot, seeking clarification on the relationship between rest mass and kinetic energy.
  • Mathematical expressions are presented to illustrate how the invariant mass is calculated and how kinetic energy contributes to the overall invariant mass of the system.
  • Participants discuss the implications of relative motion between pions and how this affects the invariant mass in different frames of reference.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

There is no consensus on the interpretation of the continuous range of energies in the invariant mass plot. Participants express differing views on the relationship between invariant mass, rest mass, and kinetic energy, leading to ongoing debate and clarification attempts.

Contextual Notes

Participants highlight the dependence of the invariant mass on the frame of reference and the conditions under which the invariant mass is calculated. There are unresolved questions regarding the implications of momentum and energy contributions in different frames.

IAN 25
Messages
48
Reaction score
4
The interaction p + π- → n + π- + π + may proceed by the creation of an intermediate 'particle' or resonance called a rho. This can be detected as a peak in the plot of invariant rest mass energy of the emergent pions versus frequency of pions observed. My question is quite simply, invariant rest mass is invariant. So, how can you have a spectrum of rest mass energies? The rest mass of the pi plus and pi minus are well known to be 139.6 Mev/ c2 for both, so how can you have a range of their rest mass energies?
 
Physics news on Phys.org
You are confusing the invariant mass of the system with the sum of the invariant masses. The invariant mass of the system is the square of the total 4-momentum, which is also the total energy in the CoM frame. This is not equal to the sum of the invariant masses of the pions.
 
As a curiosity, a system of two photons have a non-zero invariant mass (unless they are collinear). The Higgs was discovered as a peak in the photon-photon invariant mass spectrum at 125 GeV.
 
Thank you. Okay, I understand what the invariant mass of the system is - but if it is the sum of the invariant masses of the (two?) pions that is plotted, why is there a continuous range?
 
IAN 25 said:
Okay, I understand what the invariant mass of the system is
Based on the next part of your post, you don’t.

IAN 25 said:
but if it is the sum of the invariant masses of the (two?) pions that is plotted, why is there a continuous range?
It is not the sum of the invariant masses of the pions. It is the invariant mass of the system of pions (in this case the system consists of three pions).
 
To me invariant mass means invariant, whether its a sum for several particles or not; the masses have discrete values and

E2 -(pc)2 = m2c4 for each particle (or for a sum of particles)

which as I understand it, is a scalar invariant - which has the same value in all inertial frames, does it not?
So, how can you have a continuous range of energies on this plot, unless its (rest mass + kinetic ) energies. That I could understand. The Ek of the pions getting bigger until the threshold for the mass of the Rho is reached.
 
Again. It is not the invariant masses of the particles added together. It is the invariant mass of the system, i.e., ##E^2 - p^2## for the system as a whole (in reasonable units where c=1).
 
I still don't see why this gives a range of rest mass energies. That's the point I am trying to understand - the continuous range?
 
Because:
$$
(E_1 + E_2)^2 - (\vec p_1 + \vec p_2)^2 = E_1^2 - \vec p_1^2 + E_2^2 - \vec p_2^2 + 2( E_1 E_2 - \vec p_1 \cdot \vec p_2)
= m_1^2 + m_2^2 + 2( E_1 E_2 - \vec p_1 \cdot \vec p_2) \neq (m_1 + m_2)^2.
$$
 
  • #10
If the pions are at rest relative to each other, the invariant mass of the system is simply the sum of their rest masses. If the pions move relative to each other, the invariant mass of the system (=the total energy in the center of mass frame) is higher.
 
  • #11
Got it! I can follow the algebra but the two worded sentences of physics (mfb) add clarity. Thank you both.
 
  • #12
Just to add some more food for thought.

You can always consider the rest frame of one of the pions where the expression from my previous post takes the form
$$
M^2 = m_1^2 + m_2^2 + 2 m_1\sqrt{m_2^2 + p_2^2} \geq (m_1+m_2)^2,
$$
with equality holding only when ##p_2 = 0##, i.e., when the pions are at relative rest.
 
  • #13
Yes that is an interesting example. In you original expression, it is clearly the term 2(E1 E2 - p1. p2 which provides the range of kinetic energies of the pions observed either side of the peak in the laboratory frame.
 
  • #14
Orodruin said:
As a curiosity, a system of two photons have a non-zero invariant mass (unless they are collinear). The Higgs was discovered as a peak in the photon-photon invariant mass spectrum at 125 GeV.

I did read an article featuring this in the UCL Physics department Annual Departmental Review in the year concerned.
 
  • #15
mfb said:
If the pions move relative to each other, the invariant mass of the system (=the total energy in the center of mass frame) is higher.

If they move relative to each other, I can see there will be more kinetic energy in the C.M. frame. However, the sum of their momenta will be zero in that frame. So, the expression (E1 + E2 )2 - (p1 + p2)2 will not change as a result will it? Since, the momentum term is zero. Or is the rest mass energy available in the laboratory frame bigger as a result? If so is it because of the 2(E1 E2 - p1 . p2) term, which appears in the invariant rest mass expression in the latter frame?

I am still a bit confused as to how you can have more energy in the C.M. frame if the momenta sum to zero in that frame.
 
  • #16
IAN 25 said:
So, the expression (E1 + E2 )2 - (p1 + p2)2 will not change as a result will it?
Yes it will. You said it yourself, the ##E_i## increase because there is more kinetic energy.
 
  • #17
Of course, yes. Right , thanks.
 

Similar threads

  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
4K
  • · Replies 8 ·
Replies
8
Views
5K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
2K
  • · Replies 5 ·
Replies
5
Views
2K
Replies
10
Views
4K
  • · Replies 8 ·
Replies
8
Views
2K
  • · Replies 4 ·
Replies
4
Views
4K
  • · Replies 4 ·
Replies
4
Views
2K
  • · Replies 4 ·
Replies
4
Views
3K
Replies
9
Views
3K