News Iraqi unrest, Syrian unrest, and ISIS/ISIL/Daesh

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The Iraqi government is facing imminent collapse under insurgent pressure, with ISIS reportedly taking control of Mosul. The U.S. has refused military aid to Iraq, primarily to avoid appearing to support Prime Minister al-Maliki, whose Shiite leadership could be seen as backing Iran. Concerns are rising that if insurgents gain control of Baghdad, it could lead to increased conflict with Iran. The Iraqi army, despite being well-trained and outnumbering ISIS, has shown reluctance to engage, leaving military equipment behind in their retreat. The situation is evolving into a civil war, raising fears of broader regional instability and the potential resurgence of terrorism globally.
  • #251
mheslep said:
Assad's father probably was more ruthless. Browse the story of the Hama Massacre sometime, a resurrection of ancient world style destruction that inserted the phrase "Hama rules" into the language.

Thanks for the link.
The Hama massacre (Arabic: مجزرة حماة‎) occurred in February 1982, when the Syrian Arab Army and the Defense Companies, under the orders of the country's then-president, Hafez al-Assad, besieged the town of Hama for 27 days in order to quell an uprising by the Muslim Brotherhood against al-Assad's government.[1][2] The massacre, carried out by the Syrian Army under commanding General Rifaat al-Assad, effectively ended the campaign begun in 1976 by Sunni Muslim groups, including the Muslim Brotherhood, against the government.
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After the Hama uprising, the Islamist insurrection was broken, and the Brotherhood has since operated in exile while other factions surrendered or slipped into hiding. Government attitudes in Syria hardened considerably during the uprising, and Assad would rely more on repressive than on political tactics for the remainder of his rule, although an economic liberalization began in the 1990s

Looks to me like Bashar tried to transcend his father's modus operandi and it failed.
Not too surprising, human nature being such that perception of weakness invites attack.
His government went back to the old ways that'd worked for his Dad. He was its head so it's on him, no argument there.

When he assumed power, the lifestyle the West still occupied Assad's mind -- In his inaugural speech he emphasized that it was time to begin modernizing Syria. But to modernize Syria and remake it in the "image" he desired, he needed to adopt neo-liberal and capitalist policies, both of which stirred up a strong resistance from his father's old guard, who founded the socialist and secular Ba'ath Party. Not knowing the long-term consequences of marrying neoliberalism with the authoritarian structure, Bashar gained short-term benefits with his vast changes, but he also planted the seed of revolution.

In the beginning of his rule, he introduced the Damascus Spring, which included some political reforms that would suit the economic changes he planned. But when he saw that the reaction to his political shake-up was endangering his own throne, he retreated to old policies of mass repression, relying on Mukhabarat, the secret security police, to enforce his commands.

Internal clashes and tensions between Bashar and his father's old guard were inevitable. Men such as Ali Duba (former head of the Syrian military intelligence and a close adviser to the Syrian president Hafez al-Assad) as well as hardliners such as his brother Maher al-Assad (commander of the Republican Guard and the army's elite Fourth Armored Division), held such opposing views to that of their new leader that chaos was certain to occur.

During his early rule, Bashar became aware of the discontent and used his power to retire some of the old guard, sweeping them from power to reduce the conflict he faced.

The gradual increase of neo-liberal policies and privatization exaggerated the inequality between the poor and the rich, which was especially felt in middle-class areas, and mid-sized and large cities. While a small portion of the crony capitalists and loyalists to Assad were able to benefit from these policies, the vast majority of the population was disenfranchised. The uprising in the Arab world (Tunisia, Egypt, Libya) in 2011 also sparked the revolution against Bashar, who was still perceived as an inept leader.

Unable to control the uprising, the old guard members who had been forced to retire, surged back to power to address the situation. During the uprising, some Alawite people started chanting "Bashar lal iyada wa Maher lal ghiyada," meaning, Bashar should go back to the clinic and Maher should become the leader. Did Bashar's mama's boy image contribute to emboldening the people to come to streets? Did Bashar's idealistic vision of creating a "Switzerland" Syria -- but still consolidating power at the top -- play a role in the uprising? Did his vast and sudden economic and neo-liberal reforms, which in the end only benefited his gilded circle, have an impact on the current civil war? Perhaps the combination of all of these factors led to the rampant rebellion and mistrust of the people that Bashar had been chosen to lead.

I doubt he's the only head of state who's in over his head.

I hope the west doesn't "toss out the baby with the bathwater" on this one .
There's forces at play besides humanitarianism.I'm too far away to really know much about things over there. I really appreciate the posts from people closer by, like Hossam.
As the old cowboy said: "Always drink upstream of the herd".
 
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  • #252
toles09252014.jpg

Why is Assad smiling like that?

http://www.cnn.com/2014/09/24/world/meast/us-airstrikes/index.html
 
  • #253
  • #254
ISIS Is Not Just Un-Islamic, It Is Anti-Islamic
http://time.com/3273873/stop-isis-islam/

British Muslim scholars tell Isis that holding hostage goes against Qur'an
Video appeal from the orthodox Salafi school of Islamic thought calls for Isis to release British aid worker Alan Henning
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/sep/19/isis-muslim-scholars-call-release-alan-henning-hostage

Muslim Scholars Release Open Letter To Islamic State Meticulously Blasting Its Ideology
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/09/24/muslim-scholars-islamic-state_n_5878038.html
WASHINGTON (RNS) More than 120 Muslim scholars from around the world joined an open letter to the “fighters and followers” of the Islamic State, denouncing them as un-Islamic by using the most Islamic of terms.

Relying heavily on the Quran, the 18-page letter released Wednesday (Sept. 24) picks apart the extremist ideology of the militants who have left a wake of brutal death and destruction in their bid to establish a transnational Islamic state in Iraq and Syria.
. . . .
Hopefully, some are listening.Then again - Dash is holding another hostage from the UK.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/20...o-isis-uk-hostage-propaganda-message-gunpoint
 
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  • #255
HossamCFD said:
I completely appreciate that a lot depends on the perspective. If you're a westerner you'll probably see ISIS as the biggest enemy, as we haven't heard of any Assad loyalists plotting terrorist attacks at home. You'll also probably have a different opinion if you have family in Aleppo.
Do you have family in Aleppo? Sorry if I missed an introduction, but your posts are interesting and I'm curious about where your perspective comes from.
The decapitation of western journalists and aid workers in front of the camera is horrific beyond words, but so is the bombing of tens of thousands of Arabs. In my opinion that does make Assad evil in every sense of the word the same way Saddam and Qaddafi were evil. He might not be a direct enemy to the west but that doesn't make him less of an evil. 'Our way or die' does indeed apply to Assad as well for any Syrian who dares to defy him.
Agreed. A Youtube behedding is great for shock/propaganda value, but it isn't any more barbarric than gassing your own people. Some might argue that the behedding is hateful while the gassing motivated by pragmatism, but:
1. It doesn't matter to the dead people.
2. Gas is far more efficient/effective.
3. If anything, the indescriminant nature and lack of emotion is more sociopathic.
I have to admit that, although I understand the reasoning behind it, it does upset me when people suggest that Assad is the lesser of two evils and may become a partner in this conflict.
I don't see him as "the lesser of two evils", I see him as an evil not aimed in our direction. We may be on the same side on this one, but I think it is a stretch to call us allies.

An editorial aside: I'm torn about what our role should be here aside from going after terrorists aimed at us, but I am pleasantly surprised by Obama's cajones. He's going-it-alone more than Bush ever did, which, as President, IMO, is the right thing to do. That and I love the delicious irony of it.
 
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  • #256
OmCheeto said:
A "civil" war. :rolleyes:

Seems like you could accuse Abraham Lincoln of the same thing: 260,000 confederates killed.
Absolutely not. In the US Civil War virtually all of the casualties were soldiers. The double-entendre of calling it a "civil" war really was much more true there.
And I've yet to see proof that Assad ordered the gassings.
That's about the least relevant question I can imagine regarding the issue. If you accept the international community's findings that Assad's troops used gas probably dozens of times, killing thousands of people, then he is responsible, period. Dictators are not entitled to plausible deniability.
And even if he did, didn't Truman nuke some 200,000 people, because, they were going to fight to the end?
Yes. He also killed at least 125,000 people and possible a lot more by firebombing Tokyo. I suspect you think that's relevant somehow...
 
  • #257
russ_watters said:
Do you have family in Aleppo? Sorry if I missed an introduction, but your posts are interesting and I'm curious about where your perspective comes from.

No worries, there was no introduction. I don't have family in Aleppo. I'm Egyptian and I live in the UK now. I feel home in both places.

I don't see him as "the lesser of two evils", I see him as an evil not aimed in our direction. We may be on the same side on this one, but I think it is a stretch to call us allies.
I completely agree with that. I just hope that this status quo doesn't evolve into a true partnership as the conflict progresses. In any case, it's not clear if anything can be done against Assad apart from humanitarian aid and arming of the 'moderates'.
 
  • #258
French Report: Syrian Woman Secretly Films Life in Raqqa under ISIL
 
  • #259
mheslep said:
... of Congress, at least not explicit approval, nor is any constitutional rationale offered.

Nor has any UN mandate been obtained. Nor has the permission of the state of Syria been given to bomb there.

I am led to conclude that bombing in Syria is justified by the ends we seek to achieve; the rollback and destruction of ISIS. From around the world, I have heard little complaint, and much agreement. So sometimes the ends do justify the means, it would seem. But there's something about that statement, "the ends justify the means", that seems slightly jarring, so I'd like someone to explain the philosophical implications at work here, please. If it can be accepted that sometimes the ends justify the means, can it also be accepted that sometimes "might makes right"?
 
  • #260
Dotini said:
Nor has any UN mandate been obtained. Nor has the permission of the state of Syria been given to bomb there.

I am led to conclude that bombing in Syria is justified by the ends we seek to achieve; the rollback and destruction of ISIS. From around the world, I have heard little complaint, and much agreement. So sometimes the ends do justify the means, it would seem. But there's something about that statement, "the ends justify the means", that seems slightly jarring, so I'd like someone to explain the philosophical implications at work here, please. If it can be accepted that sometimes the ends justify the means, can it also be accepted that sometimes "might makes right"?

I think our response and the worlds acceptance means that most people see IS using the totalitarian principle of "might makes right" and the "the ends justify the means" in the extreme with their methods to control the populations they occupy. If you see us stop using precision weapons to hit specific targets and start using B-52 style carpet bombing or fuel air weapons on massed troops then we might talk about is it justified but so far we haven't broken a sweat on the hurt we can rain down on these guys if we just wanted to kill as many as possible as soon as possible. I think it's more like the worlds response to pirates off the coast of Somalia as a threat to international peace and security, this is lawlessness on land instead of the high seas. Nations have very broad inherent powers to stop bandits if it endangers it's citizens and don't need the host state’s consent to stop them if they can't or won't.
 
  • #261
Dotini said:
Nor has any UN mandate been obtained. Nor has the permission of the state of Syria been given to bomb there...
Neither is required. But in 60-90 days the law requires the US Congress to say yeah/nay.
 
  • #262
Iraqi woman activist killed by Islamic State
http://news.yahoo.com/iraqi-woman-activist-killed-islamic-state-094701552.html

BAGHDAD (AP) — Militants with the Islamic State group tortured and then publicly killed a human rights lawyer in the Iraqi city of Mosul after their self-proclaimed religious court ruled that she had abandoned Islam, the U.N. mission in Iraq said Thursday.

Samira Salih al-Nuaimi.

May peace be upon her.
 
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  • #263
A group backing "moderate" Syrian rebels has collapsed.
http://www.thenewstribune.com/2014/09/24/3396761/demise-of-group-backing-moderate.html

WASHINGTON — Two years after the Obama administration granted it a rare license to raise money for Syrian rebels, a Washington-based opposition nonprofit group that tried to help the United States build a moderate fighting force is defunct.

The Syrian Support Group quietly shut down last month, another casualty of the murky battleground conditions, lack of resources and infighting that have doomed every U.S.-backed attempt at creating a viable opposition partner.

A timely reminder of the fates of such projects, the group’s implosion comes as President Barack Obama tethers his new strategy against Islamic State extremists to a so-called moderate Syrian opposition force that does not yet exist in a cohesive form.
Read more here: http://www.thenewstribune.com/2014/09/24/3396761/demise-of-group-backing-moderate.html#storylink=cpy
 
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  • #264
Britain is joining in. Though only against militants in Iraq for the time being.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-29385123

The government has said it would seek separate Parliamentary approval for the extension of air strikes to Syria but reserved the right to act without consulting MPs in the event of a humanitarian emergency.
 
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  • #265
Allies. hmmm...

pf.2014.09.26.0931.allies.jpg

I saw an interesting article the other day:

Why Does The U.S. Like Iraq's Kurds But Not Syria's?It really throws a wrench into the "The enemy of my enemy is my friend" logic, when the Kurds are enemies of both our friends and enemies.

So who are these "Kurds", and why is this map so funny?

kurdistan.gif


Oh. According to Google Earth, it doesn't really exist.

pf.2014.09.26.0950.per.google.earth.kurdistan.does.not.exist.jpg

Kind of reminds me of a post I made about a "Liver" shaped thing on a map of America one day:

secede.jpg


Who are these Lakotans, and why do they think they are significant?

 
  • #266
So who are these "Kurds", and why is this map so funny?

If there's any positive thing about the current mess, I think it's that the Kurds are getting closer to having their own country, which in my opinion is a few centuries overdue. I've always been impressed how they resisted Arabic and Turkish nationalism for all those years. They still have their language and customs.

I saw an interesting article the other day:

Why Does The U.S. Like Iraq's Kurds But Not Syria's?

A very good read.
 
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  • #267
HossamCFD said:
If there's any positive thing about the current mess, I think it's that the Kurds are getting closer to having their own country, which in my opinion is a few centuries overdue. I've always been impressed how they resisted Arabic and Turkish nationalism for all those years. They still have their language and customs.
A very good read.

Thank you!

I concur, in more ways than one.
 
  • #269
caveman1917 said:
Has any rationale been provided for military intervention in Syria? What is the rationale for military intervention against IS in general? The media have spoken about the brutality and beheadings as a casus belli, but statistics show that the US-led coalition of the willing is beheading people at a much higher rate [mostly by Saudi Arabia and the moderate Syrian rebels].

The bottom line, they are not beheading Americans, ISIS is.
The reason for Syria and Iraq is as simple as the answer from Willie Sutton when asked why he robbed banks.
'That's where the money is (bandits are)'
 
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  • #270
Time out.

I think you guys have forgotten that this is no longer Politics and World Affairs. WE DO NOT WANT it to become politics and world affairs Members DO NOT WANT it to become politics and world affairs. So STOP IT.

I will re-open this in the morning for rational discussion. Please remember to cite all claims with acceptable (by us) sources.

Thank you.
 
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  • #271
Evo said:
Time out.

I think you guys have forgotten that this is no longer Politics and World Affairs. WE DO NOT WANT it to become politics and world affairs Members DO NOT WANT it to become politics and world affairs. So STOP IT.

I will re-open this in the morning for rational discussion. Please remember to cite all claims with acceptable (by us) sources.

Thank you.

I think I'm missing the point here. What is the intended difference between Current Events and the previous P&WA (which I was more familiar with)? What went wrong in this discussion? Was it too emotional? Was there too much politics?

Just asking not to repeat the mistakes. I don't want to get this thread locked.

I had a look at the updated guidelines but couldn't spot anything that went massively out of line here.
 
  • #272
Current Events is not supposed to be discussions of politics, it's supposed to be about daily news, without an emphasis on politics. So when a subject like this comes up, we need to be careful not to get too caught up in the politics or it will get shut down.
 
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  • #273
HossamCFD said:
I think I'm missing the point here. What is the intended difference between Current Events and the previous P&WA (which I was more familiar with)? What went wrong in this discussion? Was it too emotional? Was there too much politics?

Just asking not to repeat the mistakes. I don't want to get this thread locked.

I had a look at the updated guidelines but couldn't spot anything that went massively out of line here.
When in doubt, just make a joke about being a "Jelly Doughnut", or, throw out "random numbers".

I unfortunately never took a class in Political Science at University, so "Politics" has never made much sense to me.

Here's my layman definition:
Politics is about pointing fingers at someone else for being the cause of your problems.

------------------------
Just trying to goad the Mentors into giving me my first infraction at our new and improved, PF!. :P
 
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  • #274
http://www.defense.gov/news/newsarticle.aspx?id=123278
In Syria, an ISIL vehicle was destroyed south of Al-Hasakah. Also near Al-Hasakah several buildings that were part of an ISIL garrison were destroyed. An ISIL command and control facility near Manbij was damaged. An ISIL building and two armed vehicles at the Kobani border crossing were destroyed. An ISIL held airfield, an ISIL garrison and an ISIL training camp near Ar Raqqah were damaged.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-29390781
Kurdish fighters have been defending Kobane against IS since some 140,000 civilians fled the town and surrounding area for Turkey.

I guess we will see if precision air-strikes are effective in stopping this assault.
 
  • #276
I was listening to the BBC radio overnight and heard a reporter interviewing nervous residents of Baghdad running around in a dither. Apparently the ISIS bogeyman is only a mile away!

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...sis-against-air-strikes-in-syria-9761392.html

Isis fighters are reportedly just one mile away from Baghdad as reports emerge of al-Qaeda militants bolstering their ranks in Syria.

According to the Foundation for Relief and Reconciliation in the Middle East, Isis was approaching the Iraqi capital on Monday morning.

"The Islamic State are now less than 2km away from entering Baghdad," a spokesperson said.

"They said it could never happen and now it almost has. Obama says he overestimated what the Iraqi Army could do. Well you only need to be here a very short while to know they can do very very little."

The news comes amid reports of an emerging alliance between Isis forces in Syria and Jabhat al-Nusra, also known as the Nusra Front.

The group is the Syrian offshoot of al-Qaeda and has been fighting against the Assad regime in the civil war.

Despite months of clashes between its forces and Isis (also known as Islamic State) militants, the two groups appear to be forming a loose coalition in parts of the country to fight increasing attacks by the US and its allies.

Al-Nusra’s official spokesperson, Abu Firas al-Suri, threatened the coalition nations with retaliation on Saturday.

“These states have committed a horrible act that is going to put them on the list of jihadist targets throughout the world,” he said.

“This is not a war against al-Nusra, but a war against Islam.”

Al-Nusra and Isis leaders are now holding war planning meetings together, a source told the Guardian, although no formal alliance has been confirmed.

The reports follow growing defections from other Islamist groups to Isis, which is seen as better organised and equipped to create an “Islamic State” straddling Iraq and Syria.

A loyalty pledge was reportedly made by al-Nusra in June in the town of Al-Bukamal near the Iraqi border, the Syrian Observatory for Human Rights said, and the two groups have fought together against Government forces.

The report appeared to be confirmed on Twitter by a photograph showing an Egyptian al-Nusra Front commander shaking hands with an Isis leader of Chechen origin.

Although both Isis and al-Nusra are rooted in al-Qaeda, the two have been rivals since Isis started its involvement in Syria’s civil war in spring last year and have engaged in bloody battles killing more than 3,000 militants from both sides.

A merger had been declared by Isis leader Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi in 2013, when Isis was known as al-Qaeda in Iraq (AQI), but the alliance was rejected by al-Nusra and overruled by al-Qaeda leader al-Zawahiri.

But the international response to Isis’ bloody rampage through Iraq and Syria, and the beheadings of British and American hostages, is pushing the groups towards an alliance.

An al-Nusra source told Reuters: “There are hardline voices inside Nusra who are pushing for reconciliation with Islamic State.”

A formal alliance is believed to only be possible on the orders of al-Qaeda leader Ayman al-Zawahiri.

A deal between the militant groups would strengthen the Islamist force in Syria as air strikes cripple Isis funding sources, equipment stores and slow its advances.

The US has not said al-Nusra is being targeted but its planes have attacked a new group called Khorasan, which some analysts suspect is part of al-Nusra.

The two groups have been known to co-operate and Khorasan is believed to be made up of veteran al-Qaeda fighters with battlefield experience mostly in Pakistan and Afghanistan.

Britain, the US and the United Nations are among those who have classed al-Nusra as a terrorist group, citing its use of suicide bombing, terrorist attacks and attempts to impose Islamic law.

A small number of anti-Government groups, including some members for the secular Free Syrian Army, opposed the label after al-Nusra gained respect fighting the Assad regime.
 
  • #277
In countries with such incompatible populations ,dictators do a good job forcing people of different religions to live together without killing each other , when the dictator is taken out and the government machinery is not good enough to ensure all communities are represented and treated well, things liked this happen.

The US and allies may help stop the ISIS etc but if the Shia,Sunni and other communities don't learn to live together in peace...this is bound to happen over and over again, the US should be careful not to let Iraq become overly dependent on it for maintaining security ,Iraq has to learn to manage it's internal problems on it's own and maintain balance between different communities.
 
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  • #278
Monsterboy said:
In countries with such incompatible populations ,dictators do a good job forcing people of different religions to live together without killing each other , when the dictator is taken out and the government machinery is not good enough to ensure all communities are represented and treated well, things liked this happen.

That is so true and using violence to settle their differences goes way back in history. It is like they never made it past the 8th or 9th century.
 
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  • #280
edward said:
That is so true and using violence to settle their differences goes way back in history. It is like they never made it past the 8th or 9th century.
Libya is facing a similar problem,the dictator is no more and now different rebel groups are fighting each other for dominance, this might lead to another Iraq like problem where mere airstrikes from NATO is not going to solve the problem.In Afghanistan the Taliban are getting bolder in their attacks perhaps realizing that NATO troops are packing their bags and even if a few of them stay back ,it will not be enough to defeat the Taliban completely. Looks like the US military will be quite busy with this part the world for many many years.
 
  • #281
Maybe Turkey will use ground troops to stop ISIS.
http://www.cnn.com/2014/10/02/world/meast/isis-air-strikes/index.html?hpt=hp_t2

Gaziantep, Turkey (CNN) -- Is a possible threat to an ancient tomb at the heart of Turkey's debate on whether to step up its role in the fight against ISIS?

The Turkish Parliament is debating and will vote later Thursday on whether to authorize the use of military force against ISIS fighters in Syria and Iraq.
...
The fighting has only intensified in the region in recent days, with ISIS advancing and nearly surrounding the Syrian Kurdish city of Kobani, known in Arabic as Ayn al-Arab, just a few miles from the tomb and on the border with Turkey.

If ISIS takes Kobani, it will control a complete swath of land from its self-declared capital of Raqqa on the Euphrates River to the Turkish border, more than 100 kilometers (60 miles) away.
...
The abuses "include attacks directly targeting civilians and civilian infrastructure, executions and other targeted killings of civilians, abductions, rape and other forms of sexual and physical violence perpetrated against women and children, forced recruitment of children, destruction or desecration of places of religious or cultural significance, wanton destruction and looting of property, and denial of fundamental freedoms," the report said.
 
  • #282
nsaspook said:

I'm not sure if Iraq would allow them.

From the BBC article I linked to in the last post:
Talking to the BBC in Baghdad, Mr Abadi said Iraq's army would defeat IS "if we have good air cover" but stressed that no foreign ground troops were needed.

"We are very clear we will not accept any troops on the ground except Iraqi troops," he added.

Syria might be a different story though.
 
  • #283
HossamCFD said:
I'm not sure if Iraq would allow them.

From the BBC article I linked to in the last post:Syria might be a different story though.
It looks like they are going into Syria for sure.

update on the link:
Gaziantep, Turkey (CNN) -- Turkish lawmakers voted Thursday to authorize military force against ISIS in Syria and Iraq, joining a growing international coalition against the Islamist militants as they continued to capture territory just south of Turkey's border.

The Turkish Parliament voted 298-98 to not only to let the country's military leave its borders to battle ISIS but to eliminate threats coming from any terrorist organization in Iraq and Syria, starting Saturday.
 
  • #284
Nothing new, but - Islamic State committing 'staggering' crimes in Iraq: U.N. report
GENEVA (Reuters) - Islamic State insurgents in Iraq have carried out mass executions, abducted women and girls as sex slaves, and used child soldiers in what may amount to systematic war crimes that demand prosecution, the United Nations said on Thursday.

In a report based on 500 interviews with witnesses, also said Iraqi government air strikes on the Sunni Muslim militants had caused "significant civilian deaths" by hitting villages, a school and hospitals in violation of international law.

At least 9,347 civilians had been killed and 17,386 wounded so far this year through September, well over half of them since the Islamist insurgents also known as ISIL and ISIS began seizing large parts of northern Iraq in early June, the report said.
. . . .
http://news.yahoo.com/islamic-state-committing-staggering-violations-iraq-u-n-091141719.html
 
  • #285
Marine lost at sea.
http://www.navy.mil/submit/display.asp?story_id=83658
MANAMA, Bahrain (NNS) -- U.S. forces in the North Arabian Gulf concluded a search and rescue operation for a missing U.S. Marine Corps aircrew member today at 3:00 p.m. (GMT), after efforts to locate him were unsuccessful. The Marine is presumed lost at sea.

The Marine aircrew member went into the water yesterday when the aircraft he was aboard lost power shortly after takeoff from USS Makin Island (LHD 8). Another air crewman also exited the aircraft at the same time and was safely recovered. He is in stable condition aboard Makin Island.
 
  • #288
HossamCFD said:
Another british aid worker beheaded
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-29485405
This is too sad!
I agree. Just another case of their extreme brutality, which will ultimately be the death of them. There is nothing that can contain such cruelty for very long. They will rot from the inside out.
 
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  • #289
Hit extremists with 'iron hand': top Saudi cleric
http://news.yahoo.com/top-saudi-cleric-warns-chaos-hajj-speech-134604009.html
MOUNT ARAFAT (Saudi Arabia) (AFP) - Muslim leaders must strike the enemies of Islam with "an iron hand", Saudi Arabia's top cleric said during Friday prayers, in apparent condemnation of the Islamic State jihadist group.

. . . .

A nasty bunch -
Islamic State backs up force in Syria with threats, taunting calls
http://news.yahoo.com/islamic-state-backs-force-syria-threats-taunting-calls-172818294.html
 
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  • #290
lisab said:
I agree. Just another case of their extreme brutality, which will ultimately be the death of them. There is nothing that can contain such cruelty for very long. They will rot from the inside out.

We're hearing quite a bit of the self-resolving problem argument, from the President in particular, i.e. the repeated "wrong side of history" references. I fear the view is dangerous, as it suggests the threat will resolve itself without action if left for time to resolve. But time is a construct; people acting solves problems. The totalitarians in the first part of the 20th century were on the wrong side of history, but they killed ~50 million people by industrializing cruelty for years before history closed the book.

This idea appears to be built-in and surfaces periodically, I suppose because http://www.imdb.com/character/ch0000746/quotesroutine of civilized life that threats to that life are often met with denial. The best selling book "The Great Illusion" published just before WWI argued that war was unprofitable, completely against the interest of all great powers, and the idea that war was in fact impossible became popular until sometime before gas flowed through the trenches.

http://blogs.reuters.com/anatole-kaletsky/tag/nato/
“The powerful bonds of commercial interest between ourselves and Germany, have been immensely strengthened in recent years … removing Germany from the list of our possible foes.”
 
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  • #291
mheslep said:
We're hearing quite a bit of the self-resolving problem argument, from the President in particular, i.e. the repeated "wrong side of history" references. I fear the view is dangerous, as it suggests the threat will resolve itself without action if left for time to resolve. But time is a construct; people acting solves problems. The totalitarians in the first part of the 20th century were on the wrong side of history, but they killed ~50 million people by industrializing cruelty for years before history closed the book.

I don't think anyone is arguing for inaction, and I definitely agree that threats like these should not be downplayed and left to resolve themselves. But I do think that their madness and almost unbelievable brutality will contribute to their downfall. Had ISIS been less genocidal and less keen on on-camera beheadings, yet still ideologically the same, the chain of events over the last few months would've been altered to their favour. For instance the UK involvement had only been in reconnaissance and humanitarian aid when the first beheadings occurred and one can argue that these beheadings played an important role in convincing british MPs to authorise air strikes in Iraq (and Syria might be next). Had the Yazidis not been trapped on mount Sinjar, threatened with imminent death or sex slavery, or the christians in Mosul not been forced to convert or pay the 'Jizya', the swift US military involvement could've been avoided.

I'm aware of many people who share ISIS ideology and their anti-western anti-shia rhetoric yet could not, at least openly, sympathise with them because they couldn't bring themselves to justify their atrocities. If that's also the case in the places they control then very soon they could be going about this war alone.
 
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  • #292
http://news.yahoo.com/turkish-president-demands-apology-biden-091236171.html
Responding to questions following his speech at the Harvard Kennedy School on Thursday, Biden described Erdogan as "an old friend." Biden added: "He (Erdogan) said: 'You were right. We let too many people through.' Now they're trying to seal their border."
Erdogan disputes the claim and demanded an apology. Joe Biden called to apologize. Biden needs to be diplomatic, i.e., be more cautious in what or how he makes statements, and sometimes he needs to refrain from making statements about sensitive matters.

Meanwhile, Turkey seems to be stepping into the fray.
http://www.cnn.com/2014/10/02/world/meast/isis-air-strikes/index.html

Iran warns Turkey on Syria, and Syria says stay out. (some different perspectives on the story)
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/185761#.VDCX8ZstCpp
http://en.alalam.ir/news/1637679
http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2011/07/25/iran-warns-turkey-to-butt-out-syria/Meanwhile - "Also on Saturday, the Pakistani Taliban declared allegiance to Islamic State and ordered militants across the region to help the group in its campaign to set up a global Islamic caliphate."
http://www.theguardian.com/world/20...isis-syrian-town-turkish-leader-rebukes-biden

A second front in Pakistan and Afghanistan would be troubling.
 
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  • #293
Astronuc said:
A second front in Pakistan and Afghanistan would be troubling.

particularly when one considers recent US military "Reductions in Force"
 
  • #295
The relationship of the Turks to the Kurds is puzzling. To me, the role played by Turkey in the current crisis is incomprehensible. But maybe it's too sensitive to comment upon, as Mr Biden discovered.
 
  • #296
HossamCFD said:
I don't think anyone is arguing for inaction,

156 no votes in the House, President dismissing ISIS as a JV team back in January, etc.
http://politics.nytimes.com/congress/votes/113/house/2/507
 
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  • #297
mheslep said:
156 no votes in the House, President dismissing ISIS as a JV team back in January, etc.
http://politics.nytimes.com/congress/votes/113/house/2/507

You're right. I sort of meant in this discussion.
 
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  • #298
mheslep said:
156 no votes in the House, President dismissing ISIS as a JV team back in January, etc.
http://politics.nytimes.com/congress/votes/113/house/2/507

Is it just me, or is that the most myopically misleading headline of all time?[5]

House Vote 507 - Authorizes Aid to Syrian Rebels Against ISIS[1]​

That was an appropriations bill:

Length and Level of Funding – The CR extends funding for operations for all federal agencies, programs and services until December 11, 2014. [2]​

Seemed to have pretty good support in the senate [3]:

Joint Resolution Passed in the Senate by 27 Votes
YesDem 44Rep 33Ind 1
NoDem 9Rep 12Ind 1

But just imagine the mercenary army you could buy if it was all for ISIS:

The bill provides funding at the current annual rate of $1.012 trillion. [2 again]
A trillion dollars, is a lot. I've looked into that, in the past.

And as for Obama's comment in January? Even Al Qaeda didn't acknowledge how insane they were until February:

February 3, 2014 - Al Qaeda renounces ties to ISIS after months of infighting between al-Nusra Front and ISIS. [4]​
References
[1] http://politics.nytimes.com/congress/votes/113/house/2/507
[2] House Appropriations Committee
[3] http://politics.nytimes.com/congress (note: this link will probably not work properly in the near future. It looks very generic.)
[4] CNN
[5] I have, on occasion, been accused of speaking hyperbolically. My apologies.
 
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  • #299
Dotini said:
The relationship of the Turks to the Kurds is puzzling. To me, the role played by Turkey in the current crisis is incomprehensible. But maybe it's too sensitive to comment upon, as Mr Biden discovered.

Did you read the article I referenced in an earlier post?


It kind of explains the Kurd-Turkish relationship.

Hossam seemed to approve of its content. Not that I need his approval, mind you, but I understand that different cultures have customs that are almost incomprehensible to me, and getting an insight into why there are differences, can be very enlightening. Also, the locals, in most all areas, seem to be keen on local history, and what's going on. So I trust his insight, more than I would an armchair quarterback from the Americas.

ps. Did you know that the Iranian word for "chair" is pronounced "sandal-ee". That always struck me as funny. It means I'm sitting on my butt-shoe, as I type.
 
  • #300
OmCheeto said:
Did you read the article I referenced in an earlier post?

Yes, thank you, OmCheeto, I have read that article and several others.
I am slowly figuring out that the Turks regard their internal and Syrian Kurds (and Assad) as greater threats than ISIS, parliamentary votes and US/NATO alliances notwithstanding. The current siege of Kobani is a good example of that.
 
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