News Iraqi unrest, Syrian unrest, and ISIS/ISIL/Daesh

[nsaspook]

Syria, the state most eager to fight ISIS, has been ruled out of the coalition, as presumably has been Iran.
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/12/w...e-tepid-support-to-us-fight-against-isis.html

While we might not support Syria and Iran openly in this the only way to be effective is with their help. Tactical operation within Syria would be risky without coordination with their air defenses so I would expect we would hold our nose and be nice to them at the military level with a secure transponder code. (we don't target lock you and you don't target lock us).

 

[Astronuc]

hi dear Astronuc
Excuseme
I'm not too fluent in English
The Dash is in possession of advanced weapons
Where provided weapons?
It comes equipped Dash King of plays ...
What do you think ...?

Dash or DASH is apparently an Arabic term for what the west calls ISIS/ISIL.

I'm unsure of the details of how and what weapons they have acquired, but they are quite strong in the region. They seem to be a rather violent/brutal group.

Yesterday I was listening to some interviews of Syrians and Iraqis about how ISIS is destroying their country and culture. ISIS conducts public executions and families are bringing their children to watch, even to casually dine near the decapitated heads of victims. How profoundly sad and sickening!

http://www.npr.org/blogs/parallels/...rule-municipal-services-and-public-beheadingsMeanwhile in the US -

As Visible Villain, Islamic State Alters U.S. Political Calculus
http://www.npr.org/2014/09/10/347528651/as-visible-villain-isis-alters-u-s-political-calculus

Obama's Hawkish Plan For Islamic State Puts Doves In A Quandary
http://www.npr.org/blogs/itsallpoli...lan-for-islamic-state-puts-doves-in-a-quandry

 

[morteza]

Hi morteza - welcome to PF.

I'm not sure what you mean by this - what is "The Dash"?

hi lisab
Thank
Sorry for the delay
[/PLAIN]
Islamic State of Iraq and the Syria

 

[Astronuc]

Houston - we have a problem.

From the Wikipedia article cited by morteza.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_State_of_Iraq_and_the_Levant#Ideology_and_beliefs

ISIS is a Sunni extremist group that follows al-Qaeda's hard-line ideology and adheres to global jihadist principles.

ISIS follows an extreme anti-Western interpretation of Islam, promotes religious violence and regards those who do not agree with its interpretations as infidels or apostates.

Add to that, the anti-Shia ideology, and one has IS vs the rest of the world.

Oh, yeah - we have a Big problem.

So violence begets violence in an ongoing conflict seemingly never to end.

Whatever happened to سلام‎ Salām / שָׁלוֹם Shalom?

 

[mheslep]

"[IS] promotes religious violence and regards those who do not agree with its interpretations as infidels or apostates."

Those views extend far beyond IS. Majorities in several countries favor death for anyone who leaves the Islamic religion per http://pewglobal.org/files/pdf/265.pdf: Pakistanis 78%, Egyptians 84%. Among Pakistanis, 83% favor stoning adulterers. In the UK, 68% of Muslims "support the arrest and prosecution of those British people who "insult Islam.""

 

[OmCheeto]

Those views extend far beyond IS. Majorities in several countries favor death for anyone who leaves the Islamic religion per http://pewglobal.org/files/pdf/265.pdf: Pakistanis 78%, Egyptians 84%. Among Pakistanis, 83% favor stoning adulterers. In the UK, 68% of Muslims "support the arrest and prosecution of those British people who "insult Islam.""

Ha! I just had a revelation. But then, a white moth landed on my wrist. I took it as a sign that I'd be committing suicide if I shared it.

Umm...

I'll just share Astro's sentiment: խաղաղություն

And, being it's Saturday night, I decided to go to my fridge, and look for my necklace thingys, and noticed that I didn't have the one hanging that said "Mir".

So I looked around the house, and found my Parsi, "Learn 100 words!" stack of flash cards.

The one on top was the phrase; "Takte Khab", which always sounded too much like; "Taxi Cab", which oddly enough, means "bed".

​

I also took that as a sign.

Good night.

--------------------------
as usual, ok2di&b
ps. I have absolutely no clue as to how to pronounce "peace" in Armenian.

 

[HossamCFD]

... and one has IS vs the rest of the world.

I wish that was the case. Unfortunately, it may not be that simple.

In most Arabic countries, while there is genuine abhor at the brutality of Isis actions, the rhetoric is not at all unfamiliar. Also there is a non-negligible numbers of non-violent hard-liners who, while not condoning all their actions, share most of its ideology.

A case in point is the Saudi regime. From beheading blasphemers and apostates to morality police checking women dress codes, they share a lot of Isis beliefs. The main difference is that the Saudis aren't expansionists. That's why Saudi only flipped out when Isis declared a caliphate, implicitly declaring war on all muslim regimes that refuse to give allegiance to Al-baghdadi.

For the time being the sympathisers aren't vocal in defence of Isis, owing to its extreme brutality. This will definitely change if an all out war spearheaded by the US starts against them. Especially if (when) shelling and air strikes claim civilians lives in the Isis ruled areas.

I'm not necessarily arguing against a more elaborate and wider military action against Isis. I genuinely don't know what the best solution to that threat is. But I can definitely see the potential for it getting much worse if a US-led war starts against them which may strengthen their weak and pragmatic alliances with sunni tribes in the region and help them recruit more sunni extremists from the wider middle east.

 

[HossamCFD]

Those views extend far beyond IS. Majorities in several countries favor death for anyone who leaves the Islamic religion per http://pewglobal.org/files/pdf/265.pdf: Pakistanis 78%, Egyptians 84%.

I couldn't find the Egypt statistics in your source, which looks alarmingly high. I found Egypt mentioned in 4 statistics in this report but none of them is related to capital punishment for apostasy. Did you get that from a different source or am I just too incompetent to find it?

 

[Astronuc]

Britain mourns slain hostage; another under threat
http://news.yahoo.com/uks-cameron-calls-emergency-meeting-killing-074840916.html

British aid worker David Haines has been beheaded — like two American journalists before him — and the Islamic State group is threatening to kill a fourth captive.

David Haines was kidnapped in Syria in March 2013 while working for the French aid group Agency for Technical Cooperation and Development, or ACTED, to help victims of the fighting.

He had also worked for groups such as Handicap International, which helps the disabled during conflicts, and Nonviolent Peaceforce, which sends unarmed peacekeepers into conflict zones. He had previously been in Libya during its civil war, as well as South Sudan.

Peace be upon David Haines and his family and friends.


Meanwhile -

Australia Prime Minister Tony Abbott said on Sunday a 600-strong force comprising some 400 airforce personnel and 200 special forces soldiers would be deployed to a U.S. military base in the United Arab Emirates.

http://news.yahoo.com/australia-commits-jets-international-force-fight-militants-040453556.html

 

[morteza]

ha! I just had a revelation. But then, a white moth landed on my
the one on top was the phrase; "takte khab", which always sounded too much like; "taxi cab", which oddly enough, means "bed".
and found my Parsi, "Learn 100 words!" stack of flash cards.

​

i also took that as a sign.
[/size]

What do you mean this picture
And your posts ... ?

 

[morteza]

Britain mourns slain hostage; another under threat

British aid worker David Haines has been beheaded — like two American journalists before him — and the Islamic State group is threatening to kill a fourth captive.
040453556.html[/url]

040453556.html[/url]

But many questions arise ...!
Why not show complete killing David Haines ...?

 

[Borg]

But many questions arise ...!
Why not show complete killing David Haines ...?

It saddens me to think that anyone would want to watch something like that. Would you want it shown if it was one of your relatives?

 

[mheslep]

I couldn't find the Egypt statistics in your source, which looks alarmingly high. I found Egypt mentioned in 4 statistics in this report but none of them is related to capital punishment for apostasy. Did you get that from a different source or am I just too incompetent to find it?

Egypt number comes from a different pew link

when asked about the death penalty for those who leave the Muslim religion, at least three-quarters of Muslims in Jordan (86%), Egypt (84%) and Pakistan (76%) say they would favor making it the law; in Nigeria, 51% of Muslims favor and 46% oppose it. In contrast, Muslims in Lebanon, Turkey and Indonesia largely reject the notion that harsh punishments should be the law in their countries. About three-quarters of Turkish and Lebanese Muslims oppose the stoning of people who commit adultery (77% and 76%, respectively), as does a narrower majority (55%) of Muslims in Indonesia.

http://www.pewglobal.org/2010/12/02/muslims-around-the-world-divided-on-hamas-and-hezbollah/

 

[HossamCFD]

Egypt number comes from a different pew link


http://www.pewglobal.org/2010/12/02/muslims-around-the-world-divided-on-hamas-and-hezbollah/

Cheers for the link. This looks pretty grim indeed.

 

[morteza]

It saddens me to think that anyone would want to watch something like that. Would you want it shown if it was one of your relatives?

I do not understand what's wrong
You've already seen pictures of people getting killed by your Daesh?

If your answer is yes ...
So why the difference is ...
Because the victim is not crowded and noisy?
It's not because I'm being cruel ...
And I'm skeptical Dash and objectives
I do not know what the goals of the Daesh ...
He passed away condolences to his family and the British people say ...

Daesh = Islamic State of Iraq and the Syria

 

[Borg]

I do not understand what's wrong
You've already seen pictures of people getting killed by your Daesh?

If your answer is yes ...

The answer is no, I have not seen those pictures. IMO, only a seriously disturbed individual would want to view pictures like that.

 

[nsaspook]

I do not understand what's wrong
You've already seen pictures of people getting killed by your Daesh?
...
Daesh = Islamic State of Iraq and the Syria

These Insane Sadistic crazies know the limits of modern media IRT what is allowed to be posted away from the bowels of the Internet and leaving it to the imagination to generate the horror of his last living moments generates the same gut response without people wanting to block-out the entire memory of what happened.

 

[OmCheeto]

What do you mean this picture
And your posts ... ?

Sometimes, there is no meaning.

Sometimes, a bunch of words and images just mean; "Hello!".

 

[Dotini]

I'm not necessarily arguing against a more elaborate and wider military action against Isis. I genuinely don't know what the best solution to that threat is. But I can definitely see the potential for it getting much worse if a US-led war starts against them which may strengthen their weak and pragmatic alliances with sunni tribes in the region and help them recruit more sunni extremists from the wider middle east.

It looks like the coalition being assembled may be a bit too weak to match the goals set by President Obama.
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/12/w...column-region&region=top-news&WT.nav=top-news

 

[HossamCFD]

It looks like the coalition being assembled may be a bit too weak to match the goals set by President Obama.
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/12/w...column-region&region=top-news&WT.nav=top-news

I'm having a hard time trying to understand what's actually being planned at the moment. I imagine the plan is that the US along with a few other NATO members will provide air support, intel, and perhaps a supply of weapons and pretty much everything apart from 'boots on the ground'. Those boots will have to come from local armies, mainly the Iraqi forces and the Peshmerga. It seems that the current negotiations are aiming to provide extra ground troops/air support (both?) from bigger armies in the region such as Turkey, Egypt, Saudi, and perhaps Jordan and few other gulf countries.

I suppose the contribution of Turkey et al. to the coalition would be important if NATO wants to avoid sending ground troops since relying only on Iraq & Peshmerga ground forces would take a long time to drive ISIS back, let alone push into Syria. It will also challenge the ever so present rhetoric that this is yet another western invasion of Iraq. This would be very similar to the minor and mostly politically motivated contribution of Egypt and Syria in the first gulf war.

Turkey is certainly the biggest asset here, with a modern army and direct access to ISIS territory. However, they have this hostage situation which is making them very reluctant to get directly involved. The Egyptian army hasn't participated in any major war since 1973 (apart from the minor involvement in the first gulf war) and it's unclear how much help they can provide. There are a few factors that make me doubt they will send a substantial force; first they may suffer big loses due to their unpreparedness and the public will certainly not like it, not least because there is little justification for Egypt's involvement since ISIS doesn't really pose a local threat yet. Second, Egypt is already struggling with militant islamists in Sinai and an involvement in Iraq will only make this worse.

I think the elephant in the room here really is Syria. While I can imagine Turkey and a few Arabic countries sending troops to Iraq with the invitation of the local government, I think none of them can afford being seen even indirectly helping Assad in Syria. I think this is also true, though to a lesser extend, for the US as well. On the other hand combating ISIS only in Iraq without tackling their stronghold in Syria seems very ineffective.

Sorry for a long and quite incoherent post but I am trying to make any sense of what's going on. I guess we'll have to wait and see how will the events unfold.

 

[Astronuc]

Apparently some countries will provide air support while others will provide air support and troops. The troops may support logistics are bases outside of Iraq and Syria, but possibly in Iraq. Perhaps special forces would be embedded with Iraqi units or Peshmerga.

Mideast complexities confound US coalition effort
http://news.yahoo.com/mideast-complexities-confound-us-coalition-effort-054749375.html

UK's Cameron resists calls for air strikes despite hostage killing
http://news.yahoo.com/islamic-state-video-purports-show-beheading-uk-hostage-000725613.html

France ready to participate in Iraq airstrikes
https://news.yahoo.com/france-insists-name-mideast-extremists-145623952.html Meanwhile -
Tehran ridicules anti-jihadist front without Damascus
http://news.yahoo.com/tehran-mocks-anti-jihadist-front-without-damascus-110139901.htmlAnd let us not forget Syria's refugees
https://news.yahoo.com/video/syrias-refugees-092329383.html

Sorry for a long and quite incoherent post but I am trying to make any sense of what's going on. I guess we'll have to wait and see how will the events unfold.

I believe a lot of us are trying to make sense of this and many other crises in the world.

 

[Astronuc]

and getting messier

Qaeda branches urge unity against US-led 'war on Islam'
http://news.yahoo.com/key-qaeda-branches-urge-united-jihadist-front-against-130311846.htmlJihadists confiscate non-Sunni assets in Iraq's Mosul
http://news.yahoo.com/jihadists-confiscate-non-sunni-assets-iraqs-mosul-152402906.htmlMeanwhile - Saudi Arabia's top clerics speak out against militancy
http://news.yahoo.com/saudi-arabias-top-clerics-speak-against-militancy-103209117.html

and - German Muslims invite all faiths to day of prayer against Islamic State
http://news.yahoo.com/german-muslims-invite-faiths-day-prayer-against-islamic-173555758.html

 

[Dotini]

and getting messier

...and weirder.

Fun reading about what John Kerry had to say today about Iran taking on ISIS.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...fight-against-Isil-if-US-fails-miserably.html

 

[nsaspook]

John Kerry needs to learn when to stop talking.

 

[Astronuc]

What's in a name?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs...nd-replacing-it-with-a-label-the-group-hates/

 

[HossamCFD]

I'm not sure what to make out of this:

Video of British hostage John Cantlie released
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-29258201

This doesn't fit with the picture they were selling to the world earlier when they released the beheading videos. Are they starting to realize that intimidation doesn't quite work? Or is this intended for sympathisers and potential recruits who were put off by their excessive brutality.

 

[OmCheeto]

...and weirder.

Fun reading about what John Kerry had to say today about Iran taking on ISIS.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...fight-against-Isil-if-US-fails-miserably.html

Fun is what wasn't said by Kerry.

From your article:

But this week Iran's supreme leader, Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, claimed that the US had privately approached Tehran seeking cooperation against Isil. He rejected the approach, saying the US had "corrupt intention and stained hands".

What's in a name?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs...nd-replacing-it-with-a-label-the-group-hates/

Hence, why I thought it was once worth an attempt to learn Farsi. Unfortunately, I decided I was too old to learn a new language, much less a new alphabet, which is both backwards, and, IMHO, has way too many dots. I can't even remember people's names.

I was once discussing the Middle East situation on another science forum, with someone named Mohammad that claimed to be from Amman Jordan. It was a very strange, and delightful discussion. Delightful, in that I learned a lot about the Middle East. Strange, in that Mohammad's tone changed from one post to another. I eventually decided that I was conversing with a multitude of people, all using the same account.

To correlate this with your "What's in a name"? comment, I asked them about people that blew themselves up. The "suicide bombers", as we call them. They referred to them as "Jokers".

I knew at that moment, that we had a severe communication breakdown.

I could also tell that one of my "Mohammad kids" was not too up on photoshop, as they posted the following:

It struck me as odd. But then again, maybe the kid in the middle didn't like his dad.

I responded with the following:

Posted 6/22/2007​

To show, that cardboard signs on the internet are not really a great source of truth.

The aforementioned forum no longer exists. I wish it did. We had some good times. And, it is always sad, when you lose a potential friend.

-----------------------------
Lance Corporal Boudreaux himself insisted that the sign originally read 'Welcome Marines'.
ok2di&b :(

 

[lisab]

To show, that cardboard signs on the internet are not really a great source of truth.

So true. It might as well say, "Your message here!"

Photoshop makes it just too easy.

 

[HossamCFD]

What's in a name?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs...nd-replacing-it-with-a-label-the-group-hates/

I think the reason why the term DAESH (al-Dawla Al-islameya fil Eraq wal SHam, Islamic state in Iraq and al-Sham) is hated by its members is that acronyms that don't by themselves make out a word are not common in Arabic and can be seen as derogatory. For instance HAMAS and FATAH are both acronyms but they both are arabic words as well (FATAH is actually a reverse acronym for this same reason)

 

[HossamCFD]

I prefer to call them Isis for this reason:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isis#mediaviewer/File:Isis.svg