Medical Is alcohol the most destructive drug on the planet?

[Borek]

To make things clear - my Dad was an alcoholic, and when he died he was just 54. Alcohol didn't kill him, but for sure played an important part in decline of his health.

Ivan: I agree with your point about the fact that alcohol is treated differently. It is not only in social reception, it is also in law (alcohol is legal, drugs are not). It is stupid if you ask me.

To be consistent we should either delegalize alcohol, or legalize drugs, I see no reason to treat them differently. I guess if marijuana was a part of our culture for several thousands years, and alcohol was a newcomer, situation would be exactly opposite.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Ivan: I agree with your point about the fact that alcohol is treated differently. It is not only in social reception, it is also in law (alcohol is legal, drugs are not). It is stupid if you ask me.

Not where I was going with this but I see all drugs as being the same. This by definition includes alcohol.

What I find offensive [socially and intellectually] is the notion that alcohol is somehow safer than other drugs. In fact it is one of THE most dangerous drugs around.

 

[BobG]

Not where I was going with this but I see all drugs as being the same. This by definition includes alcohol.

What I find offensive [socially and intellectually] is the notion that alcohol is somehow safer than other drugs. In fact it is one of THE most dangerous drugs around.

It's characterized by the people that are most likely to use and/or abuse it instead of by its dangers. It's one of the few drugs where usage increases with education level (abuse also increases with education level to a certain extent).

http://www.niaaa.nih.gov/Resources/DatabaseResources/QuickFacts/AlcoholConsumption/Pages/dkpat2.aspx : White, college educated males with a job are the most likely to consume alcohol.

http://www.niaaa.nih.gov/Resources/DatabaseResources/QuickFacts/AlcoholConsumption/Pages/dkpat21.aspx : White males, especially in the 18-25 range are the most likely to be heavy drinkers. The correlation between education and heavy alcohol use is kind of muddled, probably because unemployment drastically increases the likelihood of heavy drinking (or vice versa?). Education decreases the chances of being unemployed.

You'd think a higher education level would decrease the chances of a woman drinking during pregnancy, but that's apparently not the case: http://www.dhh.louisiana.gov/offices/publications/pubs-267/457.pdf. The most likely woman to drink during pregnancy is married, over 30, with more than a high school education.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Tsu just called to let me know that it looks like the woman in the op is going to make it. Even yesterday there was serious concern that her kidneys may not kick in again, or perhaps that her pancreas was damaged beyond hope. But for the first time since this happened we got good news. She's off the respirator and sitting up!

 

[turbo]

Tsu just called to let me know that it looks like the woman in the op is going to make it. Even yesterday there was serious concern that her kidneys may not kick in again, or perhaps that her pancreas was damaged beyond hope. But for the first time since this happened we got good news. She's off the respirator and sitting up!

Good news, Ivan. My best hopes for no relapse. Sometimes addicts fall off the wagon even after a serious scare. Hope she'll get counseling and stay clean.

 

[Borek]

Fingers crossed. Sometimes it takes getting to the bottom to start swimming up.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Good news, Ivan. My best hopes for no relapse. Sometimes addicts fall off the wagon even after a serious scare. Hope she'll get counseling and stay clean.

The sad and incredible part to me is that she didn't have a drinking problem until she suffered a family crisis, two years ago. It only took two years for this to happen. I've seen heroin addicts that fare better than this!

 

[Evo]

The sad and incredible part to me is that she didn't have a drinking problem until she suffered a family crisis, two years ago. It only took two years for this to happen. I've seen heroin addicts that fare better than this!

Like I said before, she most likely had underlying kidney disease or other problems she was not aware of. The drinking would worsen pre-existing conditions. Was she taking acetaminophen along with the alcohol? I know Tsu warned of how dangerous that was.

 

[Newai]

I used to think meth was the most destructive drug on the planet, but after seeing this I have to give the trophy to booze.

Perhaps because alcohol is legal and much more commonplace? What would happen if meth was made just as accessible?

 

[Evo]

Back to reality, this was not alcohol alone. Anyone have research to back that this damage this quick can be just alcohol consumption? Unless she was consuming lethal amounts of alcohol daily, which would make anything lethal.

Acetaminophen is probably one of the scariest and deadliest over the counter drugs there is. Much deadlier than alcohol, meth, or heroine. In the US it's known as Tylenol.

http://www.merckmanuals.com/professional/sec21/ch326/ch326c.html

Alcohol alone could not have caused the damage that woman had in that time frame unless she had pre-exisiting problems or it's possible she was mixing alcohol with acetaminophen or other drugs. Let's stay realistic, although long term alcohol abuse can cause health problems, it cannot cause these problems in this short of a time frame by itself.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

You will have to ask Tsu about that one. She's the one getting the information first hand, and according to her this was caused solely by alcohol. When I questioned whether this is even possible, she said this is not surprising at all.

I know you can die from alcohol poisoning by drinking just once.

Dunno, Tsu is the one with 35 years of medical and ER experience. She is up helping to take care of the woman's dogs today.

 

[Evo]

You will have to ask Tsu about that one. She's the one getting the information first hand, and according to her this was caused solely by alcohol. When I questioned whether this is even possible, she said this is not surprising at all.

I know you can die from alcohol poisoning by drinking just once.

Tsu is up helping to take care of the woman's dogs today.

I know people that have died from alcohol poisoning. Yes, you can die from a single overdose of alcohol. Long term damage though is just that, it's long term. Some people do have medical issues that by themselves won't be fatal, but will be fatal with large continued doses of alcohol.

Can a completely healthy person with no medical conditions develop these conditions you cite in 2 years, never heard of it. But one single huge ingestion of alcohol can kill, but it won't be kidney or liver disease.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

I know people that have died from alcohol poisoning. Yes, you can die from a single overdose of alcohol. Long term damage though is just that, it's long term. Some people do have medical issues that by themselves won't be fatal, but will be fatal with large continued doses of alcohol.

Can a completely healthy person with no medical conditions develop these conditions you cite in 2 years, never heard of it. But one single huge ingestion of alcohol can kill, but it won't be kidney or liver disease.

Do you a source saying this is not possible, or is this just your opinion?

Esp given that you already changed the title. You just admitted that alcohol kills. What's the problem with being honest?

 

[Evo]

Do you a source saying this is not possible, or is this just your opinion?

Esp given that you already changed the title. You just admitted that alcohol kills. What's the problem with being honest?

The onus of proof is on the one making the claim. You know that. And I'll gladly change everything if you can prove what you claim is real.

I think it's a great discussion and people should be aware of the dangers of alcohol. But we also have to make sure that it's scientifically & medically correct.

 

[Ivan92]

I think I should have my views on alcohol in this thread and I am sorry to hear about all the problems that alcohol caused problems/deaths in family. I know people in my family who drink alcohol.

I think alcohol is not the most dangerous drug out there. It is dangerous in how it is being consumed. People think that getting drunk and binge drinking is all fun and games until someone suffers from serious health issues. Even when its for being depressed, abusing it is not the answer to the problems. I have taken sips before, but I don't drink. I chose to write papers on why the drinking age should be lowered to 18 have done an extensive amount of research into what alcohol does. One of the things I found out is that Alcohol, in moderation, is good for your health¹. People though do tend to abuse it, like any other drug. Alcohol is a drug and it is legal. But with a lot of other drugs, it can be abused. Alcohol is no different and we can see that. Yes its socially acceptable to drink but that is assuming you know when to stop.

Source:
1. http://www2.potsdam.edu/hansondj/HealthIssues/1107279468.html

 

[russ_watters]

Do you a source saying this is not possible, or is this just your opinion?

Esp given that you already changed the title. You just admitted that alcohol kills. What's the problem with being honest?

Honest? You're arguing against a by definition/self evident reality! Its a pretty big claim to say that alcohol can destroy your kidneys in 2 years with no underlying exacerbating factor.

[edit] Actually, the OP is about kidney failure. I don't think kidney failure has an association with alcohol. Who made that connection - the doctors or you?!

The only thing the wiki says on the subject is that alcohol lowers the risk of developing kidney stones: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long-term_effects_of_alcohol#Kidney_stones

 

[Ivan92]

The only thing the wiki says on the subject is that alcohol lowers the risk of developing kidney stones: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long-term_effects_of_alcohol#Kidney_stones

Like I said, and my link supports that alcohol has it's health benefits. However, those who abuse are more susceptible to having health problems. You can't drink excessively and expect that it lowers the risk of developing kidney stones. I am sure that there are studies who can correlate excessive drinking and and kidney failure.

 

[russ_watters]

I absolutely understand that alcohol can cause a host of different health problems. But it should only be blamed for things it actually does and it doesn't look to me like it has more than a tangential relevance here. For example, here's what AARP has to say about people drinking with kidney disease: http://www.aakp.org/aakp-library/alcohol-consumption/

Basically, the link lists a handful of indirect effects drinking can have on your kidneys, such as increasing blood pressure and increasing urine output. It doesn't mention alcohol directly affecting the kidneys (as opposed to, say, the liver).

It can be comforting to blame an easy target, but that doesn't make it correct and being correct matters in this forum.

 

[Antiphon]

Not detracting from any of the negatives in this post; alcohol can and does ruin lives.

But there is another side. I have maybe 1-2 drinks per month and it's enjoyable. It has a certain beneficial effect on my immune system; this low dose can clear my complexion right up. Even daily drinking (1-2 or less) has been reported to have positive medical effects.

As with many things, some of us will react well while others will not at all.

 

[Proton Soup]

I absolutely understand that alcohol can cause a host of different health problems. But it should only be blamed for things it actually does and it doesn't look to me like it has more than a tangential relevance here. For example, here's what AARP has to say about people drinking with kidney disease: http://www.aakp.org/aakp-library/alcohol-consumption/

Basically, the link lists a handful of indirect effects drinking can have on your kidneys, such as increasing blood pressure and increasing urine output. It doesn't mention alcohol directly affecting the kidneys (as opposed to, say, the liver).

It can be comforting to blame an easy target, but that doesn't make it correct and being correct matters in this forum.

the problem with high blood pressure and kidneys is that kidneys help control blood pressure by regulating fluid and mineral levels. but HBP can damage the kidneys, making it harder to control blood pressure. so it's a positive feedback loop.

http://kidney.niddk.nih.gov/kudiseases/pubs/highblood/

it's all a matter of degree. obviously, some people drink quite a lot for many years. but someone who comes in late, maybe already obese and hypertensive, they might get hit a lot harder if they suddenly become a heavy drinker.

 

[fluidistic]

Alcohol has ruined the life of my father (had a Ph.D., wife and 3 children, lost all of this and never got any job after falling into alcohol) and has greatly affected me and my brother/sister. He's currently in very, very bad shapes and suffer from an advanced Barrett syndrome (hope I typed it correctly). He's currently 53 years old. The father and mother of my girlfriend died at 54. So did the sister of my father (last year) and now I learn that Borek's father too... Going to start hating this number.

 

[Evo]

More here.

The minimum dose of alcohol that must be consumed for serious liver injury to become apparent in men is 5-6 standard drinks daily for 20 years. For women, the minimum dose is one-fourth to one-half that amount.

http://www.montana.edu/wwwai/imsd/alcohol/Vanessa/vwliver.htm

 

[fluidistic]

Responding to Evo: standard drink=200 ml of beer? So that means around 1 liter of what... 6% of alcohol? Just want to make things clear :)

 

[BobG]

Back to reality, this was not alcohol alone. Anyone have research to back that this damage this quick can be just alcohol consumption? Unless she was consuming lethal amounts of alcohol daily, which would make anything lethal.

Acetaminophen is probably one of the scariest and deadliest over the counter drugs there is. Much deadlier than alcohol, meth, or heroine. In the US it's known as Tylenol.

http://www.merckmanuals.com/professional/sec21/ch326/ch326c.html

Alcohol alone could not have caused the damage that woman had in that time frame unless she had pre-exisiting problems or it's possible she was mixing alcohol with acetaminophen or other drugs. Let's stay realistic, although long term alcohol abuse can cause health problems, it cannot cause these problems in this short of a time frame by itself.

The main danger of acetaminophen is liver damage. Generally, that takes about 7 to 10 grams in a single dose. With people that consume a lot of alcohol, acetaminophen can cause liver damage with as little as 4 to 6 grams a day. Extra-strength acetaminophen comes in doses of 500 mg and the recommended dosage is just two, but people with severe hangovers will sometimes take twice as much as the recommended dosage. (At least that was the practice of my ex-wife - drinking binges a few times a week, 4 tylenols in the morning for the hangovers, and 3 or 4 cans of diet coke a day. She eventually changed to a healthier style of living by giving up the diet cokes.)

I could see the combination of the two (alcohol with acetaminophen for resulting hangovers) doing some severe damage much more rapidly than just damage from alcohol alone.

 

[Evo]

Responding to Evo: standard drink=200 ml of beer? So that means around 1 liter of what... 6% of alcohol? Just want to make things clear :)

I would guess that an average drink in the US would have a jigger of alcohol, 40 proof. 1 jigger = 1.5 fluid ounce (~44 ml)

So, we're talking 7-8 ounces of 80 proof alcohol (40% alcohol by volume) per day every day for 20 years.

So a couple of beers every night is not what we're talking about here. However, if you drink, please let your doctor know as you could have conditions for which you should not drink, and never mix drugs, even over the counter ones, with alcohol. /end disclaimer

 

[fluidistic]

Thanks Evo for the clarification. I'm glad I asked for it, seems like I was "dead wrong".
I do not drink alcohol (might happens once per year) and usually try to avoid to take pills unless I'm ill.