Is Dark Matter a Dead End in Physics?

AI Thread Summary
Recent experiments have failed to detect dark matter (DM), raising questions about the validity of current detection methods and theoretical models. While some argue for the need to explore new approaches, such as alternative detection technologies, others emphasize the gravitational evidence supporting DM's existence despite its elusive nature. The discussion also touches on the scientific community's focus on supersymmetry (SUSY) and the perceived lack of attention to other potential theories. Some participants suggest that alternative explanations, like primordial black holes or modified gravity theories, deserve more investigation, while others maintain that existing models still have merit. The ongoing debate highlights the complexities and challenges in understanding dark matter and the need for continued exploration in the field.
  • #51
In considering PBHs as the DM substance, how does one distinguish PBHs from non-primordial BHs? Is it nor reasonable to assume that any PBHs would during the aging of the universe get larger by capturing additional ordinary matter? Is it possible to estimate how much of a very large black hole, such as one at the center of a galaxy, consists of what might be a PBH, and how much later added ordinary matter.

Perhaps a calculation similar to that described below might be useful.

If PBHs were formed less than 1 sec following the Big Bang (BB), might one consider the temperature T at the time compared with the Harking radiation temperature TH of a PBH of an assumed mass?
Hawking radiation temperature:
BH HR T.png

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawking_radiation
From the above equation,
M(TH) = const / TH.
For any mass M > M(TH), the PBH will gain mass rather than radiate it away. The following calculation is too difficult for me to make, but it should not be too difficult for someone with some good math skills to calculate how a PBH of an assumed mass will grow between 1 sec (following BB) and a later time. If one assumes some distribution of the masses of PBHs at 1 sec, one can calculate the corresponding PBH mass distribution at 3-20 min when nucleosynthesis occurs. The total mass density of the DM PBHs grown to be larger BHs prior and during this interval needs to match the requirement for the current ratio of deuterium mass density to hydrogen mass density. From this calculation of DM=BH mass density during this interval, one should be able to calculate what the change in average PBH/BH mass density between 3-20 min and now, ignoring newly formed BHs from stars.
 

Attachments

  • BH HR T.png
    BH HR T.png
    942 bytes · Views: 641
Last edited:
Astronomy news on Phys.org
  • #52
Sanborn Chase said:
I'm extremely buoyed by your confidence.

It's a simple and well established empirically fact about electromagnetic interactions of matter.
 
  • #53
You've quelled my doubts and set me back on the track to enlightenment. I can't thank you enough.
 
  • #54
@Sanborn Chase Let's not do that. It's unnecessary.

weirdoguy's statement is as uncontroversial as saying: 'it's invisible because we think it's there but we can't see it'.
You're asking: 'how would you know it's invisible if you'd never seen it?'
The way it is stated, the question answers itself.

I'll venture a guess that you might instead be intending to ask something along the lines of: what if we are seeing it, but since it's everywhere, it affects everything equally, and we're unaware of it? As if wearing rose-tinted glasses all our lives.
And in case that's the intended meaning, then it's ruled out by the fact that any substance interacting with light would leave more of its signatures if there was more of that substance in the way of the light.
Since from gravitational signatures we expect DM to be non-uniformly spread, this would make its effects on light be directionally-dependent. One would see more of the effect if looked at similar objects through more intervening DM, like for example observing a supernova shining from the near side vs the far side of a galaxy. Or looking across the bulk of the Milky Way vs away from it. Or at spectra of galaxies in large clusters versus small ones.
In other words, one would see some as of yet unexplained effect that would correlate with the distribution of DM.
 
  • Like
Likes Imager, nikkkom and weirdoguy
  • #55
If it interacts with light it is not dark matter by definition. So yes, clearly we are 100% confident that dark matter doesn't interact with light.

The next question is "how do we know how much non-dark matter there is". We know that pretty well through a variety of methods which all agree on the regular matter content.
 
  • #56
Dear Mr. Bandersnatch: Your comments are restorative; thank you. But your initial admonition is misplaced. I DO NOT use that ugly stepchild of humour, sarcasm, as a tool of condescension as you implied. Besides, I'm an old Southern gentleman and wouldn't stoop to such shenanigans. That said, please consider me a thirsty young ignorant child seeking to quench my thirst from the deep pool of knowledge you provide. So often my ignorance takes refuge behind my certainty. Thank you.
 
  • #57
Dale said:
MOND is not a viable alternative, regardless of any perceived problems with DM.

I wouldn’t rush to get rid of DM. It has been observed gravitationally and looks like it doesn’t interact much otherwise. So it will be inherently difficult to detect.

Science isn’t room service where you can order a result to your liking to be delivered by the end of the sitcom you are watching. It is a difficult enterprise and honest science always has a real risk of null results.

This profoundly overstates the case. Some form of modified gravity that approximates MOND is very strongly supported by the evidence, and DM's problems are very serious. See for example, this comparison.

Probably the biggest problem with a DM hypothesis is explaining why its distributions are so intimately related to the distribution of luminous matter, which is completely explained for all systems of galaxy size by MOND, over many orders of magnitude in galaxies of many different types, with a single experimentally measured constant, as tested in thousands of galaxies, with outliers appearing in magnitude and frequency at almost exactly the rate that would be predicted from measurement error. There is almost no conceivable way that a DM theory can reproduce this relationship.

MOND effects are also observed in systems that simply can't be DM driven, such as wide binary stars.

There is also pretty good evidence that the "external field effect" particular to MOND and absent from DM theories, really exists.

Now, naive MOND is just a toy model. It's domain of applicability does not extent to relativistic strong gravitational fields, where full general relativity is required, and it underestimates the phenomena observed in galactic clusters. It needs to be generalized to accommodate GR effects and it needs to be tweaked in very massive galactic cluster systems. But, its successes are pretty much inconsistent with anything but the most baroque DM theories (which also add 5th forces that allow it to interact with other dark matter and with ordinary matter). The case that some sort of modification of gravity, rather than DM particles is the source of the observed phenomena is very great, and examples such as the Bullet Cluster which have been offered to disprove modified gravity theories don't actually do that.

DM theories provide one simple explanation for the observed patterns of Cosmic Background Radiation. But, that simple theory isn't the only possible way to get that effect. No one was ruled out the possibility that a modified gravity theory could replicate that effect and indeed it has been shown that it is possible to have a modified gravity theory that produces the same CMB signature.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Likes Alain_BXL
  • #58
bbbl67 said:
So to answer your question about whether we've found evidence of PBH's? I think it's nearly irrefutable that all supermassive BH's are PBH's. But we haven't found evidence for sub-stellar mass PBH's yet though.

There is virtually no evidence whatsoever that supermassive BH's are PBH's and indeed, in most models of supermassive BH formation and galaxy formation, PBH's are not involved at all.
 
  • #59
Justin Hunt said:
@bbbl67My point is that almost every one of these quantities has a degree of uncertainty to it. So, couldn't part of the issue be compounded issues of uncertainty when we look at galactic distances? In order to determine the rotation curves, we had to determine the mass of the visible matter, we had to determine the velocities stars etc, none of which can be directly observed.

There are uncertainties, but they are well quantified. And, we have some very good methods of determining the mass of visible matter and the velocity of stars (which is directly observed).

Maybe there are WIMPS, maybe there are PBH, maybe our understanding of gravity is complete etc. or maybe it is a combination of more than one of those things. At the very least, an AI algorithm could be used to determine the most likely candidates.

Both of these possibilities are pretty much ruled out by the data, and there is nothing magic about AI algorithms. Plain old natural intelligence from human beings has been quite sufficient to rules out a whole host of DM candidates.
 
  • #60
ohwilleke said:
This profoundly overstates the case
Perhaps. I admittedly have not followed any recent developments of MOND, having examined them and lost interest in them quite some time ago. It could be that something new has overcome previous problems.

What I have seen from MOND theories at best is capable of explaining galaxies, but fails at both cosmological scales and local scales. I have yet to see a MOND theory which is not contradicted by already existing evidence at cosmological scales and at local scales.

If you know of a MOND theory which is consistent with all currently available evidence at all scales then I would be glad for a reference.
 
Last edited:
  • #61
Why would you think that MOND fails at local scales?
 
  • #62
ohwilleke said:
Why would you think that MOND fails at local scales?
It doesn’t predict gravitational time dilation or the correct light deflection or the precession of Mercury or the Shapiro effect or frame dragging.
 
  • Like
Likes Buzz Bloom
  • #64
Dale said:
MOND is not a viable alternative, regardless of any perceived problems with DM.

I wouldn’t rush to get rid of DM. It has been observed gravitationally and looks like it doesn’t interact much otherwise. So it will be inherently difficult to detect.

Science isn’t room service where you can order a result to your liking to be delivered by the end of the sitcom you are watching. It is a difficult enterprise and honest science always has a real risk of null results.

I realize that it can take very long to obtain experimental confirmation of our hypotheses (cf. Higgs boson, which took almost 60 years to be confirmed experimentally) but with each day that passes without experimental confirmation of DM, the latter looks increasingly like the modern-day equivalent of the planet Vulcan that was once thought to explain Mercury's perihelion precession.

I also realize that recent discoveries have essentially killed-off certain modified gravity theories but the fact that we don't yet have a successful modified gravity theory doesn't lend any additional credence to DM. We didn't have a fully successful theory (in terms of the facts known at the time) before GR yet that didn't make Vulcan a thing.

I sometimes wonder if there's some perverse sociological reason why the majority of physicists prefer to attempt proving that the standard model is incomplete rather than proving GR incomplete? Maybe there's more funding to be had from the former?
 
  • #65
Alain_BXL said:
but with each day that passes without experimental confirmation of DM, the latter looks increasingly like the modern-day equivalent of the planet Vulcan that was once thought to explain Mercury's perihelion precession.
The comparison is fair, but I think your timescale is way too short. It took over 100 years to detect gravitational waves, and we knew more about them than we do about dark matter. Science just isn’t a pizza delivery service with a “30 minutes or it’s free” guarantee.

With Vulcan we had previously used similar measurements to predict the existence of other planets and we had observed them where predicted. So we had experience with finding other similar objects from similar data. The scientific community therefore had a reasonable sense of how long it should take, and no major advance in instrumentation was required.

We have no experience detecting particles that interact only gravitationally. It is orders of magnitude more difficult than detecting neutrinos was, and that had many early failures too.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Likes Alain_BXL and Buzz Bloom
  • #66
Sure, I take your point. However, I'm not sure that I accept the equivalence between gravitational waves and DM. The former were predictions of a broader theory, the latter seems more like an an hoc hypothesis to fix some observational anomalies (as far as I understand, Lambda CDM doesn't provide any theory of the origin or nature of DM) . Also, it seems that DM is gradually running out of places to hide, no?
 
  • #67
Alain_BXL said:
the latter seems more like an an hoc hypothesis to fix some observational anomalies
Hi Alain:

If I remember correctly, the earliest thinking about what we now call dark matter was a result of analyzing what happened during the early period of the universe, approximately 3 to 20 minutes after the big bang, when nucleosynthesis was taking place, combining protons and neutrons into nuclei: deuterium, tritium, lithium, helium3, and helium4, and also very small amounts of a few other nuclei. This period corresponds to a temperature range whose length of duration depends on the density of matter present from GR analysis. In addition, the surviving fraction of nuclei which were deuterium also depended on the density of baryonic matter. I believe this was the earliest deduction that some mysterious non-baryonic matter (not participating in nucleosynthesis) existed because the required density of matter was roughly six times the required density of baryonic matter.

Regards,
Buzz
 
  • Like
Likes Alain_BXL
  • #68
Alain_BXL said:
Also, it seems that DM is gradually running out of places to hide, no?
This could not be further from the truth. We have not yet started to scrape off the parameter space of most DM models.
 
  • #69
Alain_BXL said:
However, I'm not sure that I accept the equivalence between gravitational waves and DM. The former were predictions of a broader theory, the latter seems more like an an hoc hypothesis to fix some observational anomalies
Agreed. My intended point there wasn’t that they are the same kind of search, but that gravitational phenomena can be very difficult to detect. As far as kinds of searches I think the neutrinos are more analogous.

Alain_BXL said:
Also, it seems that DM is gradually running out of places to hide, no?
Definitely not. If they interact only gravitationally then we are not merely years away, but probably centuries away from being able to detect them. And there could be new interactions anywhere between the weak force scale and the gravitational scale. The room to hide is enormous. I don’t think you appreciate how weak gravity is and how far away our instruments are from detecting individual particles gravitationally.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Likes Alain_BXL
  • #70
Buzz Bloom said:
Hi Alain:

If I remember correctly, the earliest thinking about what we now call dark matter was a result of analyzing what happened during the early period of the universe
Regards,
Buzz

Hi, I thought the 1st modern usage of the term was by Zwicky in the 1930s. See for example https://arxiv.org/pdf/1605.04909.pdf.
 
  • #71
Dale said:
Definitely not. If they interact only gravitationally then we are not merely years away, but probably centuries away from being able to detect them. And there could be new interactions anywhere between the weak force scale and the gravitational scale. The room to hide is enormous. I don’t think you appreciate how weak gravity is and how far away our instruments are from detecting individual particles gravitationally.

I was thinking mainly about WIMPs, which have historically been the main focus of DM research. Based on what I've read, it seems that experimental results have gradually excluded most of the region in which WIMPs were originally anticipated to exist. But the problem for DM proponents seems to go further. SuSy particles haven't yet been detected at the LHC despite high expectations (granted, more work remains to be done). If I've understood correctly, PBHs can only make-up a small part of the universe's total mass/energy budget given our current understanding of nucleosynthesis. And there seems to be a growing acceptance that MACHOs don't solve the missing mass problem.

I realize that there's lots of room between the weak force and gravity. But I still find the DM hypothesis intellectually inelegant, which was my original point. Modified gravity seems a more parsimonious and elegant approach.
 
  • #72
Alain_BXL said:
I was thinking mainly about WIMPs, which have historically been the main focus of DM research. Based on what I've read, it seems that experimental results have gradually excluded most of the region in which WIMPs were originally anticipated to exist.
You mean the region where people looking for grants to search for them said they could exist so that their experiments would be sensitive to them.

Alain_BXL said:
SuSy particles haven't yet been detected at the LHC despite high expectations (granted, more work remains to be done).
You do not need SUSY to have particle dark matter. You also do not need a typical WIMP dark matter candidate.

Alain_BXL said:
PBHs can only make-up a small part of the universe's total mass/energy budget given our current understanding of nucleosynthesis.

That conclusion does not come from nucleosynthesis. Depending on the PBH mass, there are different experimental searches ruling out PBH from being all of dark matter. For the very lightest masses, the bounds come from black hole evaporation, but in some mass ranges you can go as high as tens of per cent.

And there seems to be a growing acceptance that MACHOs don't solve the missing mass problem.

That has been the case for a long time. Either way you are missing large classes of plausible classes of dark matter, among them axion dark matter and asymmetric dark matter.

I realize that there's lots of room between the weak force and gravity. But I still find the DM hypothesis intellectually inelegant, which was my original point. Modified gravity seems a more parsimonious and elegant approach.

First of all, nature does not care about what you find elegant. Second, the major part of the scientific community that has studied these matters for decades disagrees with you. You have to keep in mind that finding dark matter is not just a matter of solving the missing mass puzzle. In many scenarios, we are looking to solve several issues of the standard model in one go. We know that the standard model needs to be extended, we just do not know exactly how this needs to be done.
 
  • Like
Likes Dale, mfb, Alain_BXL and 1 other person
  • #73
Orodruin said:
That conclusion does not come from nucleosynthesis. Depending on the PBH mass, there are different experimental searches ruling out PBH from being all of dark matter. For the very lightest masses, the bounds come from black hole evaporation, but in some mass ranges you can go as high as tens of per cent.

Sure but doesn't our knowledge of nucleosynthesis place limits on the number of "small" PBHs, precisely because their evaporation would have affected the baryon/photon ratio and thereby also affected nucleosynthesis.

Orodruin said:
First of all, nature does not care about what you find elegant.

LOL. Sure, I also own the t-shirts. Nevertheless, Occam's razor is a good guide. When I referred to elegance and parsimony, I meant it in the sense that Newton presumably had in mind when he (allegedly?) said that "We are to admit no more causes of natural things other than such as are both true and sufficient to explain their appearances. Therefore, to the same natural effects we must, so far as possible, assign the same causes." To my layman's eye, it seems more parsimonious/elegant to tweak gravity than to invent ever more complicated hypotheses to explain DM.

Axions look interesting because they could solve the strong CP problem and (partly) account for DM en passant. I have to admit that I haven't read much into asymmetric dark matter. I'll try to fix that although it seems anything but a parsimonious theory: do I understand correctly that it postulates both DM and anti-DM?
 
  • #74
Alain_BXL said:
Sure but doesn't our knowledge of nucleosynthesis place limits on the number of "small" PBHs, precisely because their evaporation would have affected the baryon/photon ratio and thereby also affected nucleosynthesis.
Not really. You get much stronger bounds from the fact that you still need them to be around today without observing any black holes in the final stages of evaporation in order for them to be dark matter.

Alain_BXL said:
To my layman's eye, it seems more parsimonious/elegant to tweak gravity than to invent ever more complicated hypotheses to explain DM.
To a particle physicist, it seems much more elegant if you can solve several problems in one go, which is typically what we try to do with particle dark matter models. We know that the standard model is not the whole story, we just don't know what should replace it.

Alain_BXL said:
I'll try to fix that although it seems anything but a parsimonious theory: do I understand correctly that it postulates both DM and anti-DM?
It postulates that dark matter is not its own anti-particle, yes. You try to make a theory where you get an asymmetry (much like in the baryon sector) in the early Universe. The typical problem that you try to solve at the same time is the baryon asymmetry.
 
  • Like
Likes Alain_BXL
  • #75
I am hardly qualified to answer the deep questions posed by this discussion, but somehow it reminds me of that great scene in The Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy where the philosopher's are horrified that Deep Thought has told them that it will take millions of years to identify the question to which '42' is the answer. He reminds them that the absence of the solution provides a huge opportunity for the philosophers to become rich from the eternal debate they can provoke and control. And if philosophers can take advantage of such an opportunity just imagine the wealth that a brighter bunch, such as astrophysicists, might accrue...
 
  • #76
Alain_BXL said:
I thought the 1st modern usage of the term was by Zwicky in the 1930s.
Hi Alain:

I stand corrected.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Bang_nucleosynthesis#History_of_theory
The history of Big Bang nucleosynthesis began with the calculations of Ralph Alpher in the 1940s. Alpher published the Alpher–Bethe–Gamow paper that outlined the theory of light-element production in the early universe.

During the 1970s, there was a major puzzle in that the density of baryons as calculated by Big Bang nucleosynthesis was much less than the observed mass of the universe based on measurements of galaxy rotation curves and galaxy cluster dynamics. This puzzle was resolved in large part by postulating the existence of dark matter.​

Regards,
Buzz
 
  • #77
Dale said:
It doesn’t predict gravitational time dilation or the correct light deflection or the precession of Mercury or the Shapiro effect or frame dragging.

MOND isn't meant to do any of those things. It is unabashedly and has been from the start, a toy model. The reason that it is described as modifying Newtonian dynamics, rather than modifying general relativity itself, is that in weak fields at galactic scales, Newtonian gravity is an excellent approximation of general relativity. Mordehai a.k.a. Moti, Milgrom, who invented MOND was perfectly familiar with GR (and indeed basically a GR physicist) and knew that a non-toy model version of MOND that perfectly described reality would have to be a general relativistic generalization of MOND (a mathematically consistent generalization called TeVeS was devised by Bekenstein, but as it turns out, that particular generalization doesn't describe what is observed in certain respects, so it is the wrong generalization) and might deserve a new name (e.g. MORD for Modified Relativistic Dynamics).

The domain of applicability of pure, toy model MOND, is limited to weak fields in circumstances where GR is well approximated by Newtonian gravity, to the point where post-Newtonian GR effects are too small to measure, and where Newtonian gravity is used in practice by astronomers as a result because the math is much, much easier with no consequences that aren't much smaller than their observational measurement error (it turns out that lots of astronomy measurements at the galactic scale actually have pretty big error margins relative to experimental measurements in other parts of fundamental physics; the MOND acceleration constant, for example, is known only to about 1% accuracy).

But, the concept of modified gravity is that you really start with GR or quantum gravity theory that approximates GR in the classical limit, and then tweak the extremely weak field behavior of that gravitational theory in such a way that it gives rise to a transition from the effectively almost perfectly Newtonian gravitational regime to the MOND behavior gravitational regime when the gravitational field gets weaker than the critical field strength that is the single fixed parameter in MOND.

While in its domain of applicability we describe that transition point as a transition from the Newtonian regime to the MOND regime, what everyone who uses it understands is that what is called the "Newtonian regime" is really just plain vanilla GR, and that the MOND regime is simply used to determine the magnitude of the gravitational field strength at a particular location, understanding that it will deflect light at that point in the same way that a field of that strength in conventional GR would.

So, while it is called modified "Newtonian' dynamics, at local scales MOND is actually, definitionally, conventional, unmodified general relativity, which we know holds true with exceptional precision, even thought we don't know precisely how to put MOND effects into the GR equations in fields that are weaker than the cutoff acceleration value.

By analogy, at velocities much smaller than the speed of light, we neglect the effects of special relativity because they are so tiny that they aren't measurable, just as in the situations where MOND is applied, the effects of general relativity relative to Newtonian gravity are so tiny that they aren't measurable for gravitational field strengths of slightly more than the acceleration constant of MOND at which MOND effects kick in. But, just as engineers who neglect special relativistic effects when modeling aerodynamics for an airplane design don't in any way presume to be saying that special relativistic effects aren't part of the laws of Nature, astronomers who apply MOND without considering the GR effects that you mention (other than the deflection of light) don't in any way presume to be saying that gravity outside the MOND regime is actually Newtonian rather than general relativistic.

What is probably going on is that MOND arises from some sort of second order quantum gravity effect in which the strength of the second order effect gets smaller with distance at an exponentially slower rate than the first order gravitational effect described by GR and approximated by Newtonian gravity, but with the second order effect multiplied by some very small constant, such that the second order effect isn't close in magnitude to the first order effect, until you reach the MOND cutoff acceleration. So, in gravitational fields stronger than the MOND cutoff, the first order effect is much stronger than the second order effect, and in gravitational fields weaker than the MOND cutoff acceleration, the second order MOND effect is very swiftly much stronger than the first order gravitational effect described exactly by GR and approximately by Newtonian gravity, as the first order effect gets weaker with distance much more rapidly than the MOND effect does.

The one way that MOND toy models differ from each other (discussed in Milgrom's papers on the topic back in the 1980s) is in the interpolation function used to transition from the "Newtonian" (actually conventional GR) regime to the MOND regimes. Many of these interpolation functions, by design, reflect this kind of understanding of what is going on.

The bottom line of all of this is that above the MOND acceleration cutoff, MOND is understood by everyone who uses it to actually be conventional GR, despite the name. So, there is no failure of MOND at local scales.

In particular, since the gravitational field of the Sun is stronger everywhere in the solar system than the MOND acceleration constant, there are no solar system effects of MOND, which is simply exactly equal to GR in the solar system.

Dark matter particle theories likewise predict that it is indistinguishable from GR without dark matter at solar system scales with existing levels of observational precision, because the amount of dark matter in that volume of space is so small and because that dark matter is so evenly spread out within the solar system.
 
Last edited:
  • #78
Dale said:
Perhaps. I admittedly have not followed any recent developments of MOND, having examined them and lost interest in them quite some time ago. It could be that something new has overcome previous problems.

What I have seen from MOND theories at best is capable of explaining galaxies, but fails at both cosmological scales and local scales. I have yet to see a MOND theory which is not contradicted by already existing evidence at cosmological scales and at local scales.

If you know of a MOND theory which is consistent with all currently available evidence at all scales then I would be glad for a reference.

There are modified gravity theories such as Moffat's MOG theory that works at galaxy cluster and cosmological scales. Deur's gravitational approach to understanding dark matter and dark energy phenomena also applies at galaxy cluster scales and has been applied to some cosmological phenomena. And, both of those approaches reduce to conventional GR in the strong field limit (as does TeVeS). FWIW, I call Deur's work a "gravitational approach" rather than a "modified gravity theory" because he conceives of his analysis as merely a quantum gravity generalization of GR, rather than a modification of GR, even though it makes, as any quantum gravity theory must, some predictions that differ from classical GR (e.g. in classical GR, gravitational energy is not localized, but any graviton based quantum gravity theory necessarily localizes gravitational energy), including its weak field behavior.

But, because the amount of research effect that has been available to work on gravitational approaches to dark matter phenomena has been so much smaller than for dark matter theories (there are probably only half a dozen core scientists working on it, and another dozen who have dabbled in it), and because the math involved in these theories is non-linear and much more difficult than in the lambdaCDM scenario, there are lots of matters at the cosmological scale in these approaches for which a gravitational approach description has simply not been worked out at all. So, these theories aren't proven to fail at cosmological scales, they just haven't been elaborated to the point that there are not precise predictions to compare to observation at those scales. Generally speaking, however, modified gravity theories that replicate dark matter phenomena appear to cause similar local structure (e.g. the earliest galaxy formation) and cosmological developments more generally, to develop as in lambdaCDM, but they occur sooner after the Big Bang than they do in lambdaCDM. Thus, for example, these theories, generically, tend to resolve the Impossible Early Galaxy Problem, found in lambdaCDM.

There are also lots of modified gravity theories in the general relativity subfield that are specifically designed to (and succeed in) describing dark energy phenomena without a cosmological constant (such as f(R) gravity theories) whose implications at a cosmological scale are better understood, but most of those theories aren't designed to explain dark matter phenomena or replace the CDM component of the lambdaCDM concordance model of cosmology (a.k.a. the Standard Model of Cosmology, which is terminology that I prefer to avoid to prevent confusion with the Standard Model of Particle Physics).

In the same way, lambdaCDM is model for which its own predictions have not been worked out rigorously at the galactic cluster and smaller scales. These dark matter particle models allow you to estimate what kind of dark matter halo ought to exist to explain a particular system's dynamics, but each system needs to be explained by three parameters or so, some of which are degenerate with each other, and there is no theory of mass assembly in the universe that accurately explains the values of those parameters on something other than a case by case, ad hoc, basis. In lambdaCDM that is on the "to do" list and has not been worked out yet. To the extent that lambdaCDM does make predictions, moreover, at these scales, those predictions are contradicted by the observational evidence.

The most recent contribution to the literature establishing that the nearly collisionless dark matter assumed in the lambdaCDM model is an inaccurate description of reality, from the perspective of a dark matter particle oriented theorist (as opposed to someone taking the gravitational approach), is Paolo Salucci, "The distribution of dark matter in galaxies" (November 21, 2018) (60 pages, 28 Figures ~220 refs. Invited review for The Astronomy and Astrophysics Review).

In contrast, in gravitational theories, such as toy model MOND, a particular distribution of baryonic matter in a galaxy fully and uniquely describes the dark matter phenomena which are predicted to exist in that galaxy with a single parameter that applies to every galaxy of every size. This is a truly stunning accomplishment for such a rigid theory with so little wiggle room, as illustrated in several recent papers discussed by the leading MOND investigator.
 
Last edited:
  • #79
ohwilleke said:
There are modified gravity theories such as Moffat's MOG theory that works at galaxy cluster and cosmological scales. Deur's gravitational approach to understanding dark matter
Thanks, that is interesting and quite helpful!

ohwilleke said:
MOND isn't meant to do any of those things.
Neither was GR, but it did it anyway. That is a large part of what makes GR so compelling and MOND not, in my mind. They both do what they were designed to do, but GR also explains many things that it was not designed to explain, completely new gravitational phenomena that were not even conceived before the theory. MOND does not.

ohwilleke said:
perfectly described reality would have to be a general relativistic generalization of MOND ... So, there is no failure of MOND at local scales
I disagree completely with the final statement. Until the generalization is actually developed MOND indeed fails locally. As you noted yourself, such a generalization is necessary but not trivial and attempts so far have failed.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Likes mfb
  • #80
Imagine Einstein would have added an additional force term to gravity to explain Mercury's perihelion precession. It is easy to find one that fixes Mercury's orbit while keeping the other orbits as they are. What would we have learned from it? Not much.
 
  • Like
Likes Dale
  • #81
Mapping of Dark Matter in the universe shows it concentrated around massive structures and, at the quantum level, it is both a wave and a particle. Is it possible that Dark Matter is gravity, itself?
 
  • #82
John Ferree said:
at the quantum level, it is both a wave and a particle.

No it is not - wave-particle duality is an outdated concept and is not part of modern quantum physics.

John Ferree said:
Is it possible that Dark Matter is gravity, itself?

Gravity is a curvature of spacetime, so based on the meaning of 'curvature of manifold' and 'dark matter' the answer is 'no'.
 
  • #83
weirdoguy said:
No it is not - wave-particle duality is an outdated concept and is not part of modern quantum physics.
Gravity is a curvature of spacetime, so based on the meaning of 'curvature of manifold' and 'dark matter' the answer is 'no'.
Got it. Thanks.
 
  • Like
Likes berkeman
Back
Top