Is Harvard President's View on Gender and Science Justified?

[Moonbear]

This is the sort of thing that makes my blood boil!

The president of Harvard University has provoked a furore by arguing that men outperform women in maths and sciences because of biological difference, and discrimination is no longer a career barrier for female academics.

Lawrence Summers, a career economist who served as treasury secretary under President Clinton, has a reputation for outspokenness. His tenure at Harvard has been marked by clashes with African-American staff and leftwing intellectuals, and complaints about a fall in the hiring of women.

For the rest of the story, see: http://education.guardian.co.uk/higher/worldwide/story/0,9959,1392808,00.html

For another version (from ABC news), see here: http://www.wjla.com/news/stories/0105/200914.html

And the Boston Globe's version: http://nl.newsbank.com/nl-search/we/Archives?p_action=doc&p_docid=107B29AB48AD8292&p_docnum=1

 

[cronxeh]

Born in New Haven, Connecticut, on November 30, 1954, Mr. Summers spent most of his childhood in Penn Valley, Pennsylvania, a suburb of Philadelphia, and was educated in the Lower Merion public schools. He has twin daughters, Pam and Ruth, age thirteen, and a son, Harry, age ten.


his daughters must be proud

 

[selfAdjoint]

Note. Ability to solve previously unseen difficult math problems is not identical with getting good grades in high school math. Girls as a class do the latter better than boys but the former not as well. This doesn't say (and Summers didn't say) that NO women are good at math, some clearly are, but they are always a small number, both among women and among mathematicians. This may make your blood boil but it's true.

 

[Curious3141]

Note. Ability to solve previously unseen difficult math problems is not identical with getting good grades in high school math. Girls as a class do the latter better than boys but the former not as well. This doesn't say (and Summers didn't say) that NO women are good at math, some clearly are, but they are always a small number, both among women and among mathematicians. This may make your blood boil but it's true.

Have you considered that the problem might lie in "outspoken" people like this Harvard egghead telling females throughout their lives that they're inferior in math and science ? Teachers are highly influential on their students, if many teachers share the bias of this Harvard guy, we're on a very slippery slope for the future of our female students. I think there's merit in attributing a large part of the disparity to discouragement and social stigmatisation.

Can you look at what our society has done to impede female greats like Sophie Germain (aka "Monsieur" Le Blanc) and Hypatia and honestly say that bias and prejudice don't have a big role to play in the status quo ?

 

[Zeteg]

It has been proven through neurological scans that men have a greater brain density and size than women. I believe the president was speaking for the genders as a whole, which really, doesn't really make him wrong.

Of course, many women have greater biological stats in intelligence, because the aforementioned only pertains to the average. It's more or less ignorant and trite to truly believe that two genders should have equally weighted brain density and sizes. It wouldn't make sense. Either women, or men, should have a higher intelligence. The probability of them being the same, is just so small, it's not very feasible, now is it?

Moonbear, you should not be upset about this. You're obviously quite intelligent, so why are you offended by that comment? People make stupid remarks about groups I belong to all the time, and yet, I don't care, since I know they don't pertain to me. I find it quite amusing that at such a meeting, there were so many offended people.

 

[Astronuc]

Girls as a class do the latter better than boys but the former not as well. This doesn't say (and Summers didn't say) that NO women are good at math, some clearly are, but they are always a small number, both among women and among mathematicians.

If women are under-represented in math and science, it also could indicate a systemic bias in the educational system which discourages women.

As for an inherent superiority of males to females, I imagine the PF sisterhood is evidence to the contrary.

Still some males cannot handle that fact that they are no better than their female counterparts. Some boys just never grow up.

 

[Bystander]

I woulda sworn The Bell Curve has taken a thorough trashing somewhere on here --- face it, gang, "Hahvahd" is a snob school for libs who talk the talk but never dream of walking the walk.

 

[franznietzsche]

Have you considered that the problem might lie in "outspoken" people like this Harvard egghead telling females throughout their lives that they're inferior in math and science ? Teachers are highly influential on their students, if many teachers share the bias of this Harvard guy, we're on a very slippery slope for the future of our female students. I think there's merit in attributing a large part of the disparity to discouragement and social stigmatisation.

Can you look at what our society has done to impede female greats like Sophie Germain (aka "Monsieur" Le Blanc) and Hypatia and honestly say that bias and prejudice don't have a big role to play in the status quo ?

Actually the problem is the education system at a low level(grade school, middle school, when i deas about what is socially desirable are first formed.) and cultural attitude towards intellectuals in general.



But the facts are still the facts.

 

[franznietzsche]

I woulda sworn The Bell Curve has taken a thorough trashing somewhere on here --- face it, gang, "Hahvahd" is a snob school for libs who talk the talk but never dream of walking the walk.

I don't like the bell curve simply because i don't like trusting my gpa to the stupidity of others, despite my confidence in that trait of theirs. That said i can understand its usefullness in compensating for a teacher who's tests are too easy or too hard.

 

[Evo]

It has been proven through neurological scans that men have a greater brain density and size than women. I believe the president was speaking for the genders as a whole, which really, doesn't really make him wrong.

I don't think anyone will disagree that men are denser than women, but that doesn't make them smarter.

My ex-husband cannot do even simple math. He cannot balance a check book and he has no concept of finance. When my daughter was in middle school she came to me upset one day because she had flunked her math homework. I asked her what happened and she told me "daddy helped me again". Whenever you help me, I get everything right, when he helps me, I get everything wrong."

This stereotyping is wrong. Girls are not encouraged to do well in math, in some cases they are even discouraged, I've seen it.

I'm 100% with Moonbear on this. That guy is a dolt.

edit: Kudos to Astronuc, Bystander, Franznietzsche, Curious3141 & Cronxeh, obviously some things men grasp more easily than women, some things women grasp more easily than men, but this does not mean either can't excel if they want to.

 

[Moonbear]

IMoonbear, you should not be upset about this. You're obviously quite intelligent, so why are you offended by that comment? People make stupid remarks about groups I belong to all the time, and yet, I don't care, since I know they don't pertain to me. I find it quite amusing that at such a meeting, there were so many offended people.

Zeteg, I've already debated elsewhere in PF regarding the brain size/density/intelligence issues, so will not start that up again here. You can search for old threads if you want to find my arguments on that.

Regarding why I am offended, I didn't say offended, I said it made my blood boil, in other words, it angers me. However, the reason this is particularly disturbing is because this wasn't some random person, but the president of Harvard University. If you read through the articles, you'll also note that in his term as president of that university, the proportion of women given faculty appointments has also dropped. Even though the president of the university is not typically involved other than to "rubber stamp" faculty appointments and promotions to tenure, having someone in place who believes women are not as able as men means he won't be questioning this drop in appointments and holding department chairs and deans accountable for ensuring equal opportunity for everyone. Now, this could just be coincidence that for some reason there has been a drop-off in women applying for appointments to Harvard, but it could also be occurring due to other reasons, and if those other reasons include inequality in either hiring or in the support given to faculty coming up for tenure. The president of the university should be ensuring such biases are not occurring, not giving the nod that it's acceptable because women are innately incapable of performing as well as men.

selfAdjoint, first, the statement referred to math and science, not just math. Second, I think the differences to which you are referring are in gender differences in performance on open versus closed type problems. As far as I know, the reason for this disparity has not been determined to be "innate" although it is postulated to be related to gender differences in risk-taking behavior and test anxiety.

Yes, there are differences in the numbers of women entering these fields (though in the biological sciences, we don't see this gender disparity to the same extent in the student population, but more in the numbers who continue on in academic careers). However, the reasons for these differences are still a matter under investigation.

Anyway, as I'm calming myself down over this, and the reason I limited my comments in my initial post, as well as the reason I posted this in General Discussion rather than somewhere that might have been more appropriate to discussion of gender differences in math and science ability, is that while my title for the thread sounds accusatory, I have not seen any direct quotes of what Dr. Summers said during the conference to know if this is a case of the media making something sound more inflammatory than it actually was. I'm not sure yet if I'm incensed over the remarks made by Dr. Summers or by media hype because I don't know which is the case yet. Either way, it doesn't help young girls to be hearing that the president of Harvard is saying they can't be good in math and science because they were just born that way, whether it was the president himself who said it, or the media exploitation of his comments that say it.

 

[franznietzsche]

I don't think anyone will disagree that men are denser than women, but that doesn't make them smarter.

My ex-husband cannot do even simple math. He cannot balance a check book and he has no concept of finance. When my daughter was in middle school she came to me upset one day because she had flunked her math homework. I asked her what happened and she told me "daddy helped me again". Whenever you help me, I get everything right, when he helps me, I get everything wrong."

This stereotyping is wrong. Girls are not encouraged to do well in math, in some cases they are even discouraged, I've seen it.

I'm 100% with Moonbear on this. That guy is a dolt.

edit: Kudos to Astronuc, Bystander & Franznietche, obviously some things men grasp more easily than women, some things women grasp more easily than men, but this does not mean either can't excel if they want to.

I agree that the main problem is cultural attitudes towards girls in math and sciences.

However keep in mind that when someone talks about one group being better than another in a certain respect they are almost always talking about averages (if they aren't then they probably are dolts). You're forgetting the difference between anecdotal evidence and scientific evidence. "This guy i knew..." is not scientific evidence. Period. To treat it as such is disgracefully unscientific.

 

[Evo]

I agree that the main problem is cultural attitudes towards girls in math and sciences.

However keep in mind that when someone talks about one group being better than another in a certain respect they are almost always talking about averages (if they aren't then they probably are dolts). You're forgetting the difference between anecdotal evidence and scientific evidence. "This guy i knew..." is not scientific evidence. Period. To treat it as such is disgracefully unscientific.

I wasn't trying to be scientific.

 

[The_Professional]

While I agree with the sentiment that men are no better than women when it comes to Math, I can't help pointing out the fact that Gloria Steinem the great feminista said a lot of stupid things regarding the "opposite sex" and got away with it. Yawn

 

[Smurf]

From my own experience I tend to notice that men perform better in areas requiring intense problem solving such as math while women are better at subjects requiring more work and/or memorization. Weather this is social or biological I have no idea, it's just a trend I've noticed in my school.

The Arts are also an area where women are also generally superior. This is almost definately a social trend as my school is full of rednecks so Fine Arts are "gay".

 

[Evo]

While I agree with the sentiment that men are no better than women when it comes to Math, I can't help pointing out the fact that Gloria Steinem the great feminista said a lot of stupid things regarding the "opposite sex" and got away with it. Yawn

A lot of women (me for one) didn't agree too much with her opinions, but she got exposure and she made changes.

 

[franznietzsche]

I wasn't trying to be scientific.

Tsk tsk. You should know how much i rant about the unscietific mindset of the common people. And my point still stands.

 

[Moonbear]

While I agree with the sentiment that men are no better than women when it comes to Math, I can't help pointing out the fact that Gloria Steinem the great feminista said a lot of stupid things regarding the "opposite sex" and got away with it. Yawn

I say this as an ardent feminist...Gloria Steinem is a putz!

She's as sexist as the male chauvenists she rants about. I believe in equal opportunity, not stomping men down to put women ahead.

 

[franznietzsche]

I believe in equal opportunity

But do you believe in equal treatment? Equal responsibility?

To clarify my question, consider the feminist college student who wants equal opportunity, to be treated as an equal, but still expects special treatment. I'm trying to think of an adequate example...one that doesn't involve a dating scenario...dang i can't think of any off hand, but i know my dad and i had this discussion with my mom where there was some instance where based on traditional gender role she expected special treatment (it was something minor, but caught our attention nonetheless) after having just ranted about equal treatment for women.

My point is, I'm all for equal treatment of women, but that means they have to give up their prized gender role that grants them special treatment.

 

[Evo]

From my own experience I tend to notice that men perform better in areas requiring intense problem solving such as math while women are better at subjects requiring more work and/or memorization. Weather this is social or biological I have no idea, it's just a trend I've noticed in my school.

The Arts are also an area where women are also generally superior. This is almost definately a social trend as my school is full of rednecks so Fine Arts are "gay".

I do believe that men are better (on average) at spatial concepts such as seeing things in three dimensions and being able to imagine how things rotate, while women are better at distiguishing between subtle hints and details and having a good visual memory. There is a cute test the BBC has posted that determines if you are "male or female" brained. I had my friend getting his PHD in experimental particle physics take the test and he had a "female" brain. Go figure.

 

[Evo]

But do you believe in equal treatment? Equal responsibility?

To clarify my question, consider the feminist college student who wants equal opportunity, to be treated as an equal, but still expects special treatment. I'm trying to think of an adequate example...one that doesn't involve a dating scenario...dang i can't think of any off hand, but i know my dad and i had this discussion with my mom where there was some instance where based on traditional gender role she expected special treatment (it was something minor, but caught our attention nonetheless) after having just ranted about equal treatment for women.

My point is, I'm all for equal treatment of women, but that means they have to give up their prized gender role that grants them special treatment.

Then you'd love me. I ask men out. I pay for their dinner. I hold doors open for them.

Take this test, it's fun. Do you have a male or female brain? http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/hottopics/intelligence/brain_sex_quiz.shtml

 

[futb0l]

I do believe that men are better (on average) at spatial concepts such as seeing things in three dimensions and being able to imagine how things rotate, while women are better at distiguishing between subtle hints and details and having a good visual memory. There is a cute test the BBC has posted that determines if you are "male or female" brained. I had my friend getting his PHD in experimental particle physics take the test and he had a "female" brain. Go figure.

I agree. But that doesn't mean that women aren't as good as men in science and technology, it's just that they're different.

 

[Moonbear]

But do you believe in equal treatment? Equal responsibility?

To clarify my question, consider the feminist college student who wants equal opportunity, to be treated as an equal, but still expects special treatment. I'm trying to think of an adequate example...one that doesn't involve a dating scenario...dang i can't think of any off hand, but i know my dad and i had this discussion with my mom where there was some instance where based on traditional gender role she expected special treatment (it was something minor, but caught our attention nonetheless) after having just ranted about equal treatment for women.

My point is, I'm all for equal treatment of women, but that means they have to give up their prized gender role that grants them special treatment.

Absolutely! One example I saw recently pertains to women in the armed forces heading to Iraq. There was a story pointing out that because there are no well-defined "front lines" in this war, more women are being deployed into real combat situations because they can't be held back from those non-existant front lines. My views on the war aside, my reaction was that it's about time they treat the women equally. If both men and women are willing to enlist, why should only men have to put their necks on the line in combat?

In dating scenarios, I prefer to take turns paying. Splitting the tab is a pain, so I just prefer that if he pays for one date, I pay for the next. (Or I pay for the plane ticket and he pays for the dinner. )

When entering buildings, if I get to the door first, I hold the door open for other people, men or women (I work with a number of men who used to seem like they'd go into convulsions if a woman held the door for them, but I've gotten most of them accustomed that whoever gets to the door first does the holding, or else whoever has a free hand if we're carrying stuff).

When it comes to children and work, both parents have to take responsibility for the kids. I believe in paternity leave, and that it shouldn't just be the women expected and/or tolerated taking time off from work to stay with a sick kid or shuttle them off to soccer practice.

And yep, tribdog is going to have to learn to cook if it kills us both! (It just might, y'know.)

 

[Evo]

I agree. But that doesn't mean that women aren't as good as men in science and technology, it's just that they're different.

Exactly, there are differences, but none that can exclude either gender from excelling in what they wish to.

 

[loseyourname]

Then you'd love me. I ask men out. I pay for their dinner. I hold doors open for them.

Take this test, it's fun. Do you have a male or female brain? http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/hottopics/intelligence/brain_sex_quiz.shtml

That's funny. I tested a female brain, too. I also love women that pay for my dinner.

 

[Evo]

That's funny. I tested a female brain, too. I also love women that pay for my dinner.

We're perfect for each other. :!)

 

[dextercioby]

Female brain,too.Physicist female,that is...Which means I'm rare...


Daniel.

 

[franznietzsche]

Then you'd love me. I ask men out. I pay for their dinner. I hold doors open for them.

Take this test, it's fun. Do you have a male or female brain? http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/hottopics/intelligence/brain_sex_quiz.shtml

This test is telling me that my brain is of neutral gender.

 

[franznietzsche]

Absolutely! One example I saw recently pertains to women in the armed forces heading to Iraq. There was a story pointing out that because there are no well-defined "front lines" in this war, more women are being deployed into real combat situations because they can't be held back from those non-existant front lines. My views on the war aside, my reaction was that it's about time they treat the women equally. If both men and women are willing to enlist, why should only men have to put their necks on the line in combat?

In dating scenarios, I prefer to take turns paying. Splitting the tab is a pain, so I just prefer that if he pays for one date, I pay for the next. (Or I pay for the plane ticket and he pays for the dinner. )

When entering buildings, if I get to the door first, I hold the door open for other people, men or women (I work with a number of men who used to seem like they'd go into convulsions if a woman held the door for them, but I've gotten most of them accustomed that whoever gets to the door first does the holding, or else whoever has a free hand if we're carrying stuff).

When it comes to children and work, both parents have to take responsibility for the kids. I believe in paternity leave, and that it shouldn't just be the women expected and/or tolerated taking time off from work to stay with a sick kid or shuttle them off to soccer practice.

And yep, tribdog is going to have to learn to cook if it kills us both! (It just might, y'know.)

THATS WHAT IT WAS!

My mom was talking about how women shouldn't ahve to be in combat, right after making a feminist rant.

I didn't want to use a dating example because there are other dynamics there going on that ahve little to do with feminism.

 

[Evo]

Female brain,too.Physicist female,that is...Which means I'm rare...


Daniel.

Whoa, wait, you are a female, or your brain is female according to the test?

So far, I've found that every physicist scores female on that test. Ok, so there aren't many, it's rare.

 

[dextercioby]

I'd better not be,or my girlfriend dumps me...

Daniel.

Danielle.

Nah,Daniel.

 

[franznietzsche]

Whoa, wait, you are a female, or your brain is female according to the test?

So far, I've found that every physicist scores female on that test. Ok, so there aren't many, it's rare.

I got neutral. But i got them all right too. what does that make me? What am i?

[insert identity crisis]

 

[Evo]

I got neutral. But i got them all right too. what does that make me? What am i?

[insert identity crisis]

You are a bit of an anomaly. You might self destruct.

Dextercioby, good, I thought you were male, even better you have a female brain. I've found some brilliant minds scoring female.

 

[franznietzsche]

You are a bit of an anomoly. You might self destruct.

Dextercioby, good, I thought you were male, even better you have a female brain. I've found some brilliant minds scoring female.

I'll probably self-destruct anyway. Its inevitable.

 

[Moonbear]

Does that quiz score anyone male? I guess the colorblind men won't get that rainbow pattern one right. I timed out on the first question though (I didn't realize I was being timed). I couldn't find the strawberry! LOL! If it was dipped in chocolate I might have found it faster. I'd have probably scored a bit differently if I wasn't half asleep already.

 

[franznietzsche]

Does that quiz score anyone male? I guess the colorblind men won't get that rainbow pattern one right. I timed out on the first question though (I didn't realize I was being timed). I couldn't find the strawberry! LOL! If it was dipped in chocolate I might have found it faster. I'd have probably scored a bit differently if I wasn't half asleep already.

Excuses excuses.

 

[Curious3141]

Then you'd love me. I ask men out. I pay for their dinner. I hold doors open for them.

Take this test, it's fun. Do you have a male or female brain? http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/hottopics/intelligence/brain_sex_quiz.shtml

My brain is female apparently.

 

[Moonbear]

Excuses excuses.

LOL! At least I am female when it's telling me I have a female brain.

 

[Bystander]

Does that quiz score anyone male? (snip)

Replay hitting correct answers as fast as the mouse will click equals MF; replay counting to three before clicking the female answers correctly equals MF; replay hitting incorrect answers on strawberry and rainbow equals M.

From their evaluation, "...women are good at ... distinguishing between subtle hints and details..." i.e., the test is not constructed for distinguishing between M and F science and math professionals, fields that are all about detail and subtlety.

Having coached about a dozen females (spouses, daughters, nieces, cousins, friends) through various math and science courses, the thing that presented the most difficulty was getting the tutees to pay the necessary attention to detail --- there was definitely a cultural barrier invoking some great mystery to understanding --- break that by playing the "broken record" titled "Pay attention to detail," and the mystery goes away. Who done it? Public school teachers: "fractions are really hard; girls never go very far in math;" and, all the other malarkey --- I could have cheerfully killed several teachers, uni level instructors, and administrators.

 

[franznietzsche]

Yeah why do people think fractions are hard?

I'll never forget my algebra 2/trig teacher: When you see a fraction don't panic. Its just a number. Thats all. Nothing special. When people see fractions they panic and freeze. Don't. Its nothing but a number, just like 1, or 2. Just a number.

 

[Polly]

The Arts are also an area where women are also generally superior. This is almost definately a social trend as my school is full of rednecks so Fine Arts are "gay".

Now THIS is outrageous! and I will take a plane and step inside the box any day of the year to testify your e-manhood for you Smurfee .

 

[franznietzsche]

Now THIS is outrageous! and I will take a plane and step inside the box any day of the year to testify your e-manhood for you Smurfee .

Only if you like rednecks commenting about how they'd like to tie you to a tree and...

 

[gravenewworld]

Quite contrary to belief I think girls are much more encouraged to do well in science and math and school in general than their male counter parts. In every single class I have taken at college the over achievers are always girls. If you look at graduate school departments in science and math they always say "female and minority applicants are strongly encouraged to apply." If you look at every summer internship/REU research opportunity they will say they favor female and minority applicants. Girls are always favored in the classroom in high school, grade, and middle schools. There may be a shortage of females in math and science, but why isn't there a furor over why there are a small amount of males who are in say things like English or Nursing (which pays well may dad is one)? Girls, I think, would have a much easier time getting accepted into more highly prestigious graduate school programs and jobs in math and science just simply because they are female. White males are becoming one of the most discriminated against groups today (and before you get pissed off, I am not a white male).

 

[Polly]

Only if you like rednecks commenting about how they'd like to tie you to a tree and...

Try some warm milk and go to bed Franz :zzz: :zzz: :zzz:

 

[franznietzsche]

Try some warm milk and go to bed Franz :zzz: :zzz: :zzz:

Sleep is for the dead!

And I'm currently approaching the 24 hour mark, and show no signs of stopping, i haven't even had coffee yet.

 

[Moonbear]

Yeah why do people think fractions are hard?

I'll never forget my algebra 2/trig teacher: When you see a fraction don't panic. Its just a number. Thats all. Nothing special. When people see fractions they panic and freeze. Don't. Its nothing but a number, just like 1, or 2. Just a number.

I wonder if that's all there is to the obstacle of learning math (not just for women, but in general, there are a LOT of people of both sexes who just don't learn math well and think it's too hard). Way back when I learned fractions, nobody said it was hard. In fact, fractions were taught with the examples that made the most sense in a real world setting: slices of pie, measuring lumber, halving or doubling recipes (this probably only works in the US where we have quarter, third, and half cups; the rest of you have to wait until you get to decimals to play with recipes). Of course, growing up with a father who was a contractor meant I was always around fractions (I was always Daddy's helper in the workshop), so there was nothing threatening about them at all for me. Maybe other kids get told they are hard and believe that. I think as soon as a teacher or parent says something is hard to learn, it gives the kid an excuse to not try to master it.

 

[Les Sleeth]

. . . the statement referred to math and science, not just math.

I personally don't have a problem accepting that something about the way a male brain develops generally makes it easier for him to do math than the way a woman's brain develops (though I don't think we should stereotype, or make public statements which contribute to stereotyping). But then, I am convinced that women's brains have developed in such a way that makes certain intelligence skills easier for them than men too. But in terms of math skill giving the edge to men for doing science, I don't see that.

In any male dominated area of society, those in control are going to elevate to the highest value what they are best at. Look at business. It used to be that strict authoritarianism prevaled as the management standard. Is it just a coincidence that as women became more influential in society, and entered the work place more, management ideals changed (and for the better, by far)?

What I think is that women and men, in in general excel at different sets of skills of which neither set makes one more "intelligent" than the other. When they are combined is when we get the good stuff. Right now I think the unique intellectual skills of women are very much undervalued and underutilized. I can't see how that wouldn't be true for science too.

 

[JasonRox]

I didn't read the entire thread, but read some arguments.

Within my experience, guys don't get encouraged to do well in math either. Everyone looks down on math for some reason, guy or girl.

Note: They kicked us out of the computer room. THIS SCHOOL SUCKS. I tell which school it is later. It sucks so bad, the president left with no warning.

 

[selfAdjoint]

Have you considered that the problem might lie in "outspoken" people like this Harvard egghead telling females throughout their lives that they're inferior in math and science ? Teachers are highly influential on their students, if many teachers share the bias of this Harvard guy, we're on a very slippery slope for the future of our female students. I think there's merit in attributing a large part of the disparity to discouragement and social stigmatisation.

Can you look at what our society has done to impede female greats like Sophie Germain (aka "Monsieur" Le Blanc) and Hypatia and honestly say that bias and prejudice don't have a big role to play in the status quo ?

It's interesting that you mention Hypatia and Sophie Germain. Both of them were oddities in the they were raised by mathematician fathers, apparently without too much female interference. Emmy Noether was another of those. I don't know anything about the upbringing of the other famous women mathematicians of old, Sonya Kovalevska and Maria Agnese.

But these are not good examples for you. Hypatia was murdered for her religious politics, not her math. Germaine got her writings out, and was welcomed by Gauss when she dropped her alias. And the other famous ladies succeeded too, or they wouldn't be famous.

The mathematical community has bent over backwards with outreach and counseling to try to bring in more women mathematicians. It hasn't worked. Nobody is cheering over that.

 

[Moonbear]

The mathematical community has bent over backwards with outreach and counseling to try to bring in more women mathematicians. It hasn't worked. Nobody is cheering over that.

I think there are two separate issues that need to be addressed there and the causes may be different.

First, perhaps the easier of the two, is retaining women who have a demonstrated interest and aptitude in mathematics. For women who enroll in universities as math majors, are they dropping out of the major at any faster rate than men? It's a demanding major, and since so few start out in it in the first place, even if the same percentage dropped out of the major as with men, there would be very few left to graduate. For those who do graduate, what do they do after that? I agree, they probably have a pretty good shot at getting into a graduate school if they choose to apply, but are they applying, and if not, why not? This is an easy group to identify since universities will have alumni records of who graduated in that major. Has anybody just asked them what career path they chose and why? This seems like an incredibly obvious thing to do, so has it been done?

The second is in attracting women into math in the first place; women who may have the aptitude for it but who have not demonstrated the interest. In this case, all the efforts of the mathematical community may be of no use if they are coming too late. Now, one possibility is that most women just don't want to be mathematicians, and if there's something else they'd rather be doing with their life, then it's their life to live. But, if there are some who might enter it if their eyes were opened to the possibility earlier, that opportunity should be offered. So, what might deter women from math? We've addressed some already, such as differences in teaching, or encouragement by teachers, parents and peers. Could another be a sex difference in risk-taking? Math (and other sciences) is a tough discipline to study, something that most young people don't see as providing many employment options, and highly competitive. Could it be that the girls/women simply see this as too risky and choose safer paths to follow, while boys/men are more willing to take risks, so more of them will give it a shot?

A third possibility is something I've personally encountered, and that is the traditional gender roles as the man as the provider, and the women's career as secondary. What this translates into is that if a husband needs to move to further his career, the women uproot and follow, but the men seem far more reluctant to uproot and follow the women if they need to relocate for their career, or the general issue that one of them needs to give in if both have careers like that, and too often it's the women who forgo advancing their career in favor of moving with their husbands. I have a friend who dropped out of grad school because her husband was a few years ahead and when he started applying for postdocs, she neither wanted to live separately nor was she willing to start over at the new university her husband moved to (too few of her exams transferred and she'd have had to start taking classes over again...the second program seemed to have very different requirements from the first one). Knowing he'd be moving yet again in just a few years, she knew she couldn't finish the degree there either, especially with needing to retake so many courses and exams. In my own case, I took the opposite approach of ending a relationship when it became apparent the guy I was dating wasn't willing/able to move as many times as I'd need to move (to his credit, it was a mutual decision because he also wasn't going to ask me to compromise my career by staying with him and not moving...I considered a career change, but we both knew I wouldn't be happy with the alternative).