News Is it immoral to sell kids on the military?

[Anttech]

I know someone that is German...

well there is over 80 million of them

 

[BobG]

The problem in the US military is that it is used as an alternative for punishment in minor crimes where the offender is given the option of military service and that most of the military is recruited from the out of work and desperate as a form of escape.
Maybe you recognize the systems term GIGO? Garbage In, Garbage Out.
Sure they LIKE to sign up Harvard Grads with caviar tastes but, more often, the source is Trailer Parks and food stamps.

Welcome back

I think your perception of who joins the military is a little out of date (but, then again, considering recruiting numbers in the last couple years, maybe it's current again).

The military probably had a higher number of minor offenders in the 50's, 60's, and 70's, but recruiting standards have been raised every time the discrepancy between military pay and civilian pay is reduced. I'm not sure the story of a judge letting a minor offender avoid jail or prison if they joined the military was ever all that common, but it's an out of date myth today.

Adjusting to an all-volunteer force by reducing the gap between military and civilian pay, offering enlistment bonuses and education assistance, etc has allowed the military to be pretty selective in who they pick. The image of quick US victories in the first Gulf War and Kosovo adds prestige and allows the military to be even more selective. Among things that are easily measurable, military recruits are generally above average (definitely above average when the economy is poor, about average when the economy is booming). They have higher ASVAB scores than the population as a whole and they have fewer people with criminal records than the population as a whole.

Of course, they still have a problem getting the top scorers on the ASVAB to join. Most folks scoring up in the high 90's probably have a few options to choose from besides the military (that's why there's some good bonuses for some of those hard to fill career fields like linguists - the DLAB test is considered incredibly difficult, but that's probably because it actually tests a person's ability to learn. Most are more familiar with tests that test what you already know).

So, it is true that the average family income of recruits is below average. It's hard to bring in recruits with some intelligence from upper middle class families when the kid's parents can pay the kid's way through college. Once out of college, it gets pretty tough to compete against what the person could earn in a civilian job.

Low income isn't equivalent to 'garbage' and assuming low income automatically goes hand in hand with criminal behavior is a pretty broad generalization.

 

[Anttech]

In the US military, do you have an "officers university" like the british military?

Basically its a bit like a university, and when you graduate you become an office right of the bat, rather than a "squadie"

 

[Townsend]

In the US military, do you have an "officers university" like the british military?

Basically its a bit like a university, and when you graduate you become an office right of the bat, rather than a "squadie"

Of course...and they are top rated schools as well.

 

[Astronuc]

The No Child Left Behind Act, requires schools who receive federal funds to give their students personal information to military recruiters. The schools in wealthy areas don't need the federal funds.

ALL US high school, and I believe college, students are now entered in a Pentagon database in order to track them for recruiting purposes.

We have been contacted twice by the Army regarding my daughter, and in fact, they called our house and asked to speak directly to my daughter who is considered a minor!

So the US government is keeping tabs on our children.

p.s. A private database company has bought various 'lists', such as loans (not necessarily government), etc., and the student data have been entered. So even if a student does not receive a federal student loan, more than likely they are still in the Pentagon's database.

 

[MaxS]

Ultimately, though, I think Robert Heinlein (another ex-Navy) had it right when he asked if a country founded on principles like ours that couldn't even get its own citizens to volunteer to defend it really deserved to survive.

If I felt that my leaders had the best interests of the common man in mind, and not profiteering and racketeering over seas, I would join up.

As it stands I don't see any connection between military service, and service to my country.

I'm sure many here have read this before, but in a thread like this I think it should be reiterated:

War is just a racket. A racket is best described, I believe, as something that is not what it seems to the majority of people. Only a small inside group knows what it is about. It is conducted for the benefit of the very few at the expense of the masses.

I believe in adequate defense at the coastline and nothing else. If a nation comes over here to fight, then we'll fight. The trouble with America is that when the dollar only earns 6 percent over here, then it gets restless and goes overseas to get 100 percent. Then the flag follows the dollar and the soldiers follow the flag.

I wouldn't go to war again as I have done to protect some lousy investment of the bankers. There are only two things we should fight for. One is the defense of our homes and the other is the Bill of Rights. War for any other reason is simply a racket.

There isn't a trick in the racketeering bag that the military gang is blind to. It has its "finger men" to point out enemies, its "muscle men" to destroy enemies, its "brain men" to plan war preparations, and a "Big Boss" Super-Nationalistic-Capitalism.

It may seem odd for me, a military man to adopt such a comparison. Truthfulness compels me to. I spent thirty- three years and four months in active military service as a member of this country's most agile military force, the Marine Corps. I served in all commissioned ranks from Second Lieutenant to Major-General. And during that period, I spent most of my time being a high class muscle- man for Big Business, for Wall Street and for the Bankers. In short, I was a racketeer, a gangster for capitalism.

I suspected I was just part of a racket at the time. Now I am sure of it. Like all the members of the military profession, I never had a thought of my own until I left the service. My mental faculties remained in suspended animation while I obeyed the orders of higher-ups. This is typical with everyone in the military service.

I helped make Mexico, especially Tampico, safe for American oil interests in 1914. I helped make Haiti and Cuba a decent place for the National City Bank boys to collect revenues in. I helped in the raping of half a dozen Central American republics for the benefits of Wall Street. The record of racketeering is long. I helped purify Nicaragua for the international banking house of Brown Brothers in 1909-1912 (where have I heard that name before?). I brought light to the Dominican Republic for American sugar interests in 1916. In China I helped to see to it that Standard Oil went its way unmolested.

During those years, I had, as the boys in the back room would say, a swell racket. Looking back on it, I feel that I could have given Al Capone a few hints. The best he could do was to operate his racket in three districts. I operated on three continents.

 

[loseyourname]

In the US military, do you have an "officers university" like the british military?

Basically its a bit like a university, and when you graduate you become an office right of the bat, rather than a "squadie"

There are two paths to take if you want to start out as a commissioned officer. The first are the academies themselves - West Point, Annapolis, etc., which are extremely competitive and difficult to get into. The other path one can take is to get an ROTC scholarship. Although also competitive, it is a little bit easier to obtain one of these, and what it does is fund your way through any college/university you wish to attend that has an ROTC (reserve officer training corps) Unit either on campus or crosstown. Priority is given to majors in subjects that are in demand - last I checked, meteorology majors were almost guaranteed a spot because they are in huge demand with the Air Force. Once awarded, your schooling is free and you take a military science class every semester along with your regular classes, go through basic training over the summer, and graduate as a commissioned officer.

 

[loseyourname]

Also, I'm pretty sure that if you have a college degree (especially in a needed field) and simply enlist, you'll become a commissioned officer very quickly.

 

[Anttech]

West Point

yeh I've heard of that... (probably from some Film somewhere)

In the UK they have Sandhurst which is where future "officers" are trained.. Bit like West point, it depends on which unit you want to get into I think on how hard the entry is.. But I may be wrong I am not a military expert

 

[Diane_]

There are two paths to take if you want to start out as a commissioned officer. The first are the academies themselves - West Point, Annapolis, etc., which are extremely competitive and difficult to get into. The other path one can take is to get an ROTC scholarship. Although also competitive, it is a little bit easier to obtain one of these, and what it does is fund your way through any college/university you wish to attend that has an ROTC (reserve officer training corps) Unit either on campus or crosstown. Priority is given to majors in subjects that are in demand - last I checked, meteorology majors were almost guaranteed a spot because they are in huge demand with the Air Force. Once awarded, your schooling is free and you take a military science class every semester along with your regular classes, go through basic training over the summer, and graduate as a commissioned officer.

There is a third option, which happens to be the one my brother took. You can get a degree and then join, going through Officer's Candidate School. People who join that way - again, like my brother - tend not to make it a career. Although they join for various reasons, one that gets mentioned a lot is a desire to give something back to the country.

Some people do see military service as one path to serving their country.

 

[Astronuc]

Regarding the last post by MaxS - the kind of behavior described by General Butler still goes on.

Founded in 1921 in New York City, Newmont has been trading on the New York Stock Exchange (NYSE) since 1925. In addition to the NYSE, Newmont trades on the Australian and Toronto stock exchanges. Newmont is headquartered in Denver, Colorado. We invite you to explore Newmont’s world of gold.

http://www.newmont.com/en/ - and what Newmont says about social responsibility - http://www.newmont.com/en/social/index.asp

However -

Tangled Strands in Fight Over Peru Gold Mine (The Cost of Gold | Treasure of Yanacocha )
By JANE PERLEZ and LOWELL BERGMAN, October 25, 2005
SAN CERILLO, Peru - The Rev. Marco Arana drove his beige pickup over the curves of a dirt road 13,000 feet high in the Andes. Spread out below lay the Yanacocha gold mine, an American-run operation of mammoth open pits and towering heaps of cyanide-laced ore. Ahead loomed the pristine green of untouched hills.

Then, an unmistakable sign that this land, too, may soon be devoured: Policemen with black masks and automatic rifles guarding workers exploring ground that the mine's owner, Newmont Mining Corporation, has deemed the next best hope.

Newmont gained undisputed control of Yanacocha in 2000 after years of back-room legal wrangling. Behind the scenes, Newmont and its adversaries - a French company and its Australian ally - reached into the upper levels of the American, French and Peruvian governments, employing a cast of former and active intelligence officials, including Peru's ruthless secret police chief, Vladimiro Montesinos.

Much of that arm-twisting has been dragged into the light, in secret recordings by the spy chief. The tapes, apparently intended to blackmail and manipulate Peru's powerbrokers, surfaced in 2000 and led to the downfall of Mr. Montesinos and the president he served, Alberto K. Fujimori.

The tapes captured everything from plotting to fix elections to shopping bags of money being unloaded for payoffs in Mr. Montesinos's office at the Peruvian National Intelligence Agency.

They captured Newmont's maneuverings, too. In one audio recording, the No. 3 Newmont executive at the time, Lawrence T. Kurlander, is heard offering to do a favor for Mr. Montesinos.

"Now you have a friend for life," Mr. Kurlander tells the spy chief.

"You have a friend for life also," Mr. Montesinos replies.

Last year, a Justice Department investigation into whether Newmont's victory resulted from bribing foreign officials was dropped after the Peruvian government failed to cooperate fully and the statute of limitations expired, according to law enforcement officials familiar with the case. The Peruvian government investigated the Yanacocha affair without bringing charges.

Mr. Kurlander has agreed to speak out publicly about his meeting for the first time. He says he regrets seeking out Mr. Montesinos, now in jail charged with everything from corruption to gun running and drug trafficking. But Mr. Kurlander and Newmont are adamant that no bribes were paid, nothing illicit done, at least not by them or their allies.

from http://www.nytimes.com/2005/10/25/international/americas/25GOLD.html?th&emc=th (registration required)

 

[edward]

Also, I'm pretty sure that if you have a college degree (especially in a needed field) and simply enlist, you'll become a commissioned officer very quickly.

The Air Force has OTS, officer training school. The Army has OCS, officer candidate school. Both are for enlisted personnel with a 4 year degree.
But being accepted is not a sure thing. It depends on what the military needs and passing a thorough background check. Currently the Army has a 60% acceptance rate for thos who apply.

All in all its a good deal for someone who is bogged down with student loans.

 

[edward]

Welcome back
I think your perception of who joins the military is a little out of date (but, then again, considering recruiting numbers in the last couple years, maybe it's current again).

Bob: it is becoming current again, but but not to the extent that it has gained national attention. Judges used to order young offenders to join the military after conviction for a minor crime.
Now it is quite often used by the defence in the plea bargain stage.

Posted: November 17, 2004 at 12:38 p.m.
SALINAS, Calif. (AP) -- A Salinas man will have to choose between going to jail or joining the military as his punishment for possession of marijuana.

http://www.kron.com/Global/story.asp?S=2579902

The DOD uses a demographic study called YATS (youth attitude tracking study)to track where the potential enlistees are. Currently it is in the lower income sector. The rural America and small town sector has always been strong. The most current target is young hispanics but there is a problem because many of them are high school dropouts. Fake diplomas have been showing up.

http://www.dmdc.osd.mil/yats/files2003/YATS1998.pdf

 

[The Smoking Man]

In the US military, do you have an "officers university" like the british military?

Basically its a bit like a university, and when you graduate you become an office right of the bat, rather than a "squadie"

West Point is the equivalent of Sandhurst.

 

[The Smoking Man]

Welcome back

Cheers

I think your perception of who joins the military is a little out of date (but, then again, considering recruiting numbers in the last couple years, maybe it's current again).

The military probably had a higher number of minor offenders in the 50's, 60's, and 70's, but recruiting standards have been raised every time the discrepancy between military pay and civilian pay is reduced. I'm not sure the story of a judge letting a minor offender avoid jail or prison if they joined the military was ever all that common, but it's an out of date myth today.

Adjusting to an all-volunteer force by reducing the gap between military and civilian pay, offering enlistment bonuses and education assistance, etc has allowed the military to be pretty selective in who they pick. The image of quick US victories in the first Gulf War and Kosovo adds prestige and allows the military to be even more selective. Among things that are easily measurable, military recruits are generally above average (definitely above average when the economy is poor, about average when the economy is booming). They have higher ASVAB scores than the population as a whole and they have fewer people with criminal records than the population as a whole.

I think the current selection standards consist of 'a pulse'.

And please ... all you conservatives out there with your fingers on the complaint button ... I did say this was a primary source of recruitment and not the ONLY source.

I am sure you have a few intelligent people enlisting too.

After all, Bush did ironically do away with the old 'hide in the National Guard' Dodge.

What's the reward for having a BA today by the way ... boot camp and then straight to Brigadier General?

(Oh, come on ... how long did you think I was going to be a 'good boy'? ... Think I'll go check my inbox for a message from Evo now )

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

Welcome back TSM.

I'm assuming that...

I think the current selection standards consist of 'a pulse'.

is an exageration.
Intellectually speaking the requirements are definitely rather low.

 

[The Smoking Man]

Welcome back TSM.
I'm assuming that...
is an exageration.
Intellectually speaking the requirements are definitely rather low.

Two words:

Lynnie England.

 

[Skyhunter]

I know it is a little out of date, but still relevant.

"The essential act of war is destruction, not necessarily of human lives, but of the products of human labour. War is a way of shattering to pieces, or pouring into the stratosphere, or sinking in the depths of the sea, materials which might otherwise be used to make the masses too comfortable, and hence, in the long run, too intelligent. Even when weapons of war are not actually destroyed, their manufacture is still a convenient way of expending labour power without producing anything that can be consumed".

George Orwell, 1984

 

[loseyourname]

^
It's funny, but that's exactly what I was talking about when I cited the huge buildup of military infrastructure as being a factor in why economic growth rates have slowed since 1980 to smurf in that capitalism thread. I'm no economist, but it seems to me that diverting trillions of dollars worth of labor and materials from the market into a non-profit producing sinkhole can have that effect. Maybe I'm being too simplistic, though. I do know that many military technologies eventually make it to the market and that many intelligent men receive training in the military and go on to contribute in the private sector.

 

[BobG]

Bob: it is becoming current again, but but not to the extent that it has gained national attention. Judges used to order young offenders to join the military after conviction for a minor crime.
Now it is quite often used by the defence in the plea bargain stage.

Posted: November 17, 2004 at 12:38 p.m.
SALINAS, Calif. (AP) -- A Salinas man will have to choose between going to jail or joining the military as his punishment for possession of marijuana.

http://www.kron.com/Global/story.asp?S=2579902

That will work well - how will he pass random urinalysis? A drug offense while you're in the military is a virtually automatic discharge. (Plus, just because the judge gave the offender the choice doesn't mean the military has to accept him.)

 

[edward]

That will work well - how will he pass random urinalysis? A drug offense while you're in the military is a virtually automatic discharge. (Plus, just because the judge gave the offender the choice doesn't mean the military has to accept him.)

You are right, ironically either way in this example the defendant is off the hook.

The ones who join as part of a plea bargain are usually required to stay clean or have charges refiled. Currently the Army is not at all picky about minor drug charges. A person can have several drug convictions and still get it. Each branch of the military has it's own "formula" for deciding ie the amount and type of drugs , the number of convictions, the laws in the state involved.

In AZ a person in possesion of less than one ounce of pot is given a written citation. It is handled like a traffic ticket. Go to court, pay the fine and go home.

 

[The Smoking Man]

That will work well - how will he pass random urinalysis? A drug offense while you're in the military is a virtually automatic discharge. (Plus, just because the judge gave the offender the choice doesn't mean the military has to accept him.)

Well, I guess the results of this case didn't happen then?

Why are you claiming the contrary when a person actually posts a case where it DID?

What is happening is that the offender is probably checked on a weekly basis and if he offends, is sent directly to jail ... do not pass go.

The intent is to put the offender into an environment of dicipline rather than dropping him into a prison population to learn 'other skills' and widening the spiral downwards in society.

This is seen as a 'chance' to a person has really done nothing other than having a disorganized life and possibly no motivation to improve by the judge.

The intent is correct ... the effect is in question. Does the armed forces improve the offender or does the offender drag the armed forces down?

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

The intent is correct ... the effect is in question. Does the armed forces improve the offender or does the offender drag the armed forces down?

If he "drags them down" in any noticable way he will be discharged.

 

[The Smoking Man]

If he "drags them down" in any noticable way he will be discharged.

Unless it only becomes apparent in certain situations like the cluster f**k known as Abu Ghraib?

By then, it's too late ... the damage is done.

There have also been incidents around bases in the Philippines, Okinawa and South Korea and an American Soldier was tracked down in Europe for grooming an English child and transporting her to France.

It seems organizations requiring sacrifice for enrolment are plagued with this type of behaviour.

I mention the US forces but we can equally apply this to the Catholic Church on an international basis.

The Canadian forces and Brits have also had problems in this area. Both have actually destroyed the 'colours' of regiments found guilty of abhorrent behaviour.

So ... before you all point and say "American basher" ... America is only the visible target at the moment.

Remember Lynnie England was considered a good soldier because of her malliability and her willingness to follow orders with enthusiasm. It was also her downfall as it was the force that employed her.

 

[Echo 6 Sierra]

What is happening is that the offender is probably checked on a weekly basis and if he offends, is sent directly to jail ... do not pass go.

If you mean while they're in the military, doubtful. The tests cost too much and the person running the GCMS usually has had only a crash course in its operation and they're more likely than not in a place where "optimal testing conditions" cannot be achieved, ie, the closet next to the head that hasn't been cleaned in a hundred years. Punishment can take a long time. I've seen people reduceed in rank to Private after 20+ years and given ca-ca jobs for up to 6 months just for the humiliation factor and to be used as an example. I've also seen people discharged almost immediately post conviction/confinement. It really depends on the Command.

The intent is correct ... the effect is in question. Does the armed forces improve the offender or does the offender drag the armed forces down?

It's hard to say, the dark side is so appealing. It's kind of a "thin blue line" thing. If you aren't into playing ball with the rest of the group, whether or nor they are good or evil, then don't expect them to come to your aid when you need it. On the other hand, sometimes a kid can straighten up permanently after a swift kick in the pants like you're talking about and realize he has been given a great chance to improve his life.

If he "drags them down" in any noticable way he will be discharged.

Not entirely true. I've known people that were "certifiable" that were kept around because of their skills while hard working kids were discharged because their wives wrote too many bad checks to the PX. Like I said before, its dependent on the Command. If the infantry commander thinks its a good idea to let his troops be bloodthirsty and he encourages them to blood battlefield virgins for the ritual of it all, its his call as long as he stays below the radar. If he wants to have only "gentlemen soldiers" under him that follow the rules of war to the T, again.

 

[Skyhunter]

If you mean while they're in the military, doubtful. The tests cost too much and the person running the GCMS usually has had only a crash course in its operation and they're more likely than not in a place where "optimal testing conditions" cannot be achieved, ie, the closet next to the head that hasn't been cleaned in a hundred years. Punishment can take a long time. I've seen people reduceed in rank to Private after 20+ years and given ca-ca jobs for up to 6 months just for the humiliation factor and to be used as an example. I've also seen people discharged almost immediately post conviction/confinement. It really depends on the Command.
It's hard to say, the dark side is so appealing. It's kind of a "thin blue line" thing. If you aren't into playing ball with the rest of the group, whether or nor they are good or evil, then don't expect them to come to your aid when you need it. On the other hand, sometimes a kid can straighten up permanently after a swift kick in the pants like you're talking about and realize he has been given a great chance to improve his life.
Not entirely true. I've known people that were "certifiable" that were kept around because of their skills while hard working kids were discharged because their wives wrote too many bad checks to the PX. Like I said before, its dependent on the Command. If the infantry commander thinks its a good idea to let his troops be bloodthirsty and he encourages them to blood battlefield virgins for the ritual of it all, its his call as long as he stays below the radar. If he wants to have only "gentlemen soldiers" under him that follow the rules of war to the T, again.

You sound experienced. And insightful.

 

[edward]

A recent discovery shows that the pre frontal lymbic system in young people does not develop until the early twenties. This system of the brain controls, among other things, the propensity for risk taking. Recruiters have been made well aware of this.

Ron Dahl, a pediatrician and child psychiatric researcher at the University of Pittsburgh Medical Center, says a desire for thrills and taking risks is a building block of adolescence. The frontal lobes help put the brakes on such behavior, but they're also one of the last areas of the brain to develop fully. Located right behind the forehead, the frontal lobes actually grow larger than adult size in puberty. But the process is far from complete; refinement of the frontal lobes can continue into the early 20s.

http://www.usaweekend.com/03_issues/030518/030518teenbrain.html

 

[Art]

In Britain there was a humerous parody of the armies recruitment ads around some years back;

"Join the army, travel to foreign exotic countries, meet interesting people and kill them!"

 

[The Smoking Man]

Not entirely true. I've known people that were "certifiable" that were kept around because of their skills while hard working kids were discharged because their wives wrote too many bad checks to the PX. Like I said before, its dependent on the Command. If the infantry commander thinks its a good idea to let his troops be bloodthirsty and he encourages them to blood battlefield virgins for the ritual of it all, its his call as long as he stays below the radar. If he wants to have only "gentlemen soldiers" under him that follow the rules of war to the T, again.

I'm not quite sure of how the US forces work but I had an associate from the UK at one point who was ex-SAS ... (honourable discharge).

His take on the military sort of backs this up.

The SAS required a 'messed-up' mentality and he has a little story he likes to tell of when his CO found him making a letter bomb for his mother-in-law and he spent 2 weeks in the stockade. (Punishment didn't exactly fit the crime)

He was actually quite brilliant but had a lager lout mentality.

He ended up in the forces as a way of escaping poverty in the North of England.

He LOVED his job and the forces loved him.

When the job to be done requires an animal, why are we surprised when the animal is considered a deviant by normal society rules?

 

[Echo 6 Sierra]

When the job to be done requires an animal, why are we surprised when the animal is considered a deviant by normal society rules?

Yes, and when the serviceman is released back to society there's not a whole lot done to ensure that his state of mind is compatible.