Is it possible for a deaf person to imagine a song?

[Skhandelwal]

What I am trying to get is that if a person is born deaf, can he come up w/ songs? I know if he reads them, then he can see that they have to have a pattern and in that sense, he can come up w/ them but can he come up w/ songs that he can feel?

 

[Rade]

Visit a home for the deaf and ask them, or, perhaps someone that is deaf and a member of PF will provide feedback.

 

[zoobyshoe]

... but can he come up w/ songs that he can feel?

If a person is completely deaf from birth, then no. They wouldn't have the means to form any good idea of what it is like to percieve sound with the ears at all, much less grasp the special case of music.

 

[KingNothing]

Can we "imagine" sounds that are 30khz in frequency, or imagine what it's like to actually SEE colors out of our normal spectrum? No, we can't - but those are things that some animals CAN perceive, and they are really there.

 

[mattmns]

Interesting question! When I read something I often "hear" myself speaking the words in my head, can/does a deaf person do the same?

 

[edward]

Deaf people can feel the vibrations and the rhythm of music by putting their hands on a speaker.

 

[MeJennifer]

If a person is completely deaf from birth, then no. They wouldn't have the means to form any good idea of what it is like to percieve sound with the ears at all, much less grasp the special case of music.

I would not be too sure about that.
A deaf person can still feel vibrations, probably much better than those who can hear.
While the range is more limited, the principle of a song in the audio spectrum is not essentially different than a song in the spectrum that we can feel. Sure he would not be able to imagine sound as we hear it, but he could certainly imagine higher vibrations.

 

[tribdog]

I read an article recently, don't remember where, but there's no evidence that loss of one sense heightens the others. Blind people don't hear better and deaf people can't feel vibrations better than those who can hear. There is some evidence that someone who is born deaf and blind has a heightened sense of taste, but that is debateable because I totally made that up. The first sentence is true though.

 

[zoobyshoe]

I would not be too sure about that.
A deaf person can still feel vibrations, probably much better than those who can hear.
While the range is more limited, the principle of a song in the audio spectrum is not essentially different than a song in the spectrum that we can feel. Sure he would not be able to imagine sound as we hear it, but he could certainly imagine higher vibrations.

Whatever tingling tactile experience a person has from music it is nothing like hearing it with the ears. I can feel vibrations and there is no way I could ever mentally get from that to an accurate model of the experience of hearing. A faster vibration would still be imagined in terms of the sense of touch. The person has no frame of reference whatever about what it's like to sense air vibrations with the dedicated sense of hearing we have.

 

[Gelsamel Epsilon]

If the person is deaf from birth, and by "imagine a song" you mean that they can imagine the sound, then no, they can't. However they could imagine the vibrations that they feel from the music.

An interesting question, let's say in some alternate universe all humans on that Earth are deaf, or they don't have ears or something. What would they make of sound waves? (lets say they don't have mouths either xD).

 

[Cyrus]

If the person is deaf from birth, and by "imagine a song" you mean that they can imagine the sound, then no, they can't. However they could imagine the vibrations that they feel from the music.

An interesting question, let's say in some alternate universe all humans on that Earth are deaf, or they don't have ears or something. What would they make of sound waves? (lets say they don't have mouths either xD).

Well, what do you make of vibrational waves when you feel them? You probably think something is shaking nearby, not making lovely sound. (something like heavy machinery)

 

[MeJennifer]

Well, what do you make of vibrational waves when you feel them? You probably think something is shaking nearby, not making lovely sound. (something like heavy machinery)

It depends, vibrators, tibetan meditation bowls, gamelan sounds, monastery gongs, taiko drums, reggae music etc, all of those are in part about the vibrations.

 

[tribdog]

of course deaf people can imagine a song and music. It is ridiculous to think they can't. They probably won't be right, but they can still imagine.

 

[Gelsamel Epsilon]

I think it was tacit in this discussion that it had to be correct.

 

[Cyrus]

of course deaf people can imagine a song and music. It is ridiculous to think they can't. They probably won't be right, but they can still imagine.

How would they imagine something they can't sense. You cant.

 

[zoobyshoe]

I think it was tacit in this discussion that it had to be correct.

I was interpreting the OP to be asking if they could arrive at an experience as emotionally moving to them as music is to us.

...but can he come up w/ songs that he can feel?

I just don't think so. You have to be able to hear the details and nuances: the specific qualities of the instruments and voices, and the layers of harmony. Vibrations on the skin aren't close.

 

[MeJennifer]

A speaker for the deaf:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/london/4377428.stm"

 

[Gelsamel Epsilon]

A speaker for the deaf:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/london/4377428.stm"

What if they're playing in a concert and they stuff up, or go a bit off tune or off tempo >.>; those vibrato things better be good.

 

[tribdog]

How would they imagine something they can't sense. You cant.

extra dimensions, imaginary numbers, zoobyshoe's sense of humor, dark matter. I do it all the time.

 

[Blahness]

What cyrus is saying is that you can't properly emulate the sense of hearing without ever having it.

You can't imagine exactly what the 4th spatial dimension would look like, because you've never seen it.

Zooby's humour is kind of like matter traveling the speed of light, though... It's pointless to try to imagine it. :tounge2:

 

[zoobyshoe]

extra dimensions, imaginary numbers, zoobyshoe's sense of humor, dark matter. I do it all the time.

A zoobie humor speaker for humor-impaired dogs:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/london/437887.stm"

A new device is helping humor-impaired canines to "hear" zoobie jokes through vibrations, 200 years after the technique was used by Beethoven as he lost his sense of humor.

 

[Skhandelwal]

If deaf people can hear bass, they can hear bass based music, by which, they can make up rhythm, by which they can get some examples for songs possible, by which, they might be able to make bass based songs.

 

[Yonoz]

I once saw a dance performance by a deaf ensemble. They would have a guy stamping a steady beat on the floor and they moved like they could imagine the song very well.

 

[zoobyshoe]

If deaf people can hear bass, they can hear bass based music, by which, they can make up rhythm, by which they can get some examples for songs possible, by which, they might be able to make bass based songs.

Can deaf people hear bass?

They can feel bass, when it's loud enough, just like you or I can, as a kind of tingling vibration on the body. Likewise if they put their hand on someone's throat while that person is speaking they can feel the vibrations through sense of touch.

That is all the ability a deaf person has to "feel" music: the same ability you or I have to feel it.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

What does a deaf person experience if they have an auditory hallucination?

 

[zoobyshoe]

What does a deaf person experience if they have an auditory hallucination?

People born deaf don't have auditory hallucinations. Schizophrenic deaf people seem to see or somehow sense disembodied hands signing.

----

If you ever saw the film "At First Sight", based on a true story, you may recall that after the blind guy had the operation to correct his eye problem, he nevertheless couldn't see coherently for a long time because the neurons dedicated to sight hadn't ever been trained to make useful sense of the kinds of patterns they were now percieving.

Likewise a person deaf from birth would not accidently imagine music or speech as we know it. They have no store of neuronal habits to draw upon to do so.

 

[Alkatran]

Wouldn't it depend on why they were death? If they're missing the necessary parts of the brain, then no. But if it's just an ear problem, then it's entirely possible they can imagine (really simple) sounds.

Have they ever put a cochlear implant on someone who was death from birth?

 

[zoobyshoe]

But if it's just an ear problem, then it's entirely possible they can imagine (really simple) sounds.

It's like tribdog said; they can try to imagine what sound must be like but the chance of it coming anywhere close is about nill.

Imagine there is a sense you don't have, called, say, the sense of troob. The exterior organs of troob are the eyebrows. To you eyebrows are ornamental, and maybe they help keep dust out of your eyes, but other people explain to you that they are constantly "troobing" the environment around them with their eyebrows and receive all kinds of information about it that is unavailable from sight, hearing, smell, and touch.

Now, as you grow up you would go through many periods of wondering what it was like to be able to troob. You would often ask people if they could explain it to you in terms of the senses you do have, but, of course, they can't because troobing is as different from the senses you do have as sight is to touch, or any other sense.

Now, they can explain to you that troobing is nothing less than a direct reaction to the Earth's magnetic field, and they can show you a compass to prove it has a magnetic field, but that explains nothing.

Once in a while you meet a more patient person who tries to explain that troobing doesn't provide specific information about direction and location per se, but creates a "depth and separation and resonance" that enriches people's experience of location. "It's roughly, roughly analagous to the different way differences in air moisture make a person feel or the way sound changes when moving from outdoors to inside affects you, except it's much more intense and is triggered by smaller differences in body position. And the experience is such that it's important to people and they would feel much diminished if they lost the ability.

Now, you can take all that and imagine what it might be like to troob, but, really, anything you come up with is about guarranteed to be wrong.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

People born deaf don't have auditory hallucinations.

How can we know this?

 

[zoobyshoe]

How can we know this?

I'm assuming that by "auditory hallucinations" you are referring to the disembodied voices that torment schizophrenics and people in psychotic states. It should be obvious why they couldn't have such an experience.

If, instead, you are talking about what they might experience if the neurons dedicated to processing sound in hearing people were triggered from within by say, a simple partial seizure, then it's safe to say that what they experience wouldn't be anything like the "sound" we know. Those neurons haven't been trained by years of experience to fire in response to signals from the ear. There wouldn't be a set firing pattern in place for them to recreate in exaggerated form. As Monique used to be fond of saying, "Neurons that fire together, wire together," meaning, once a bunch of neurons have been induced to fire in a given sequence they tend to prefer that sequence in the future. We all have billions of billions of little "riffs" like this stored in our brains. A person born completely deaf would have no such "riffs" for sound to be erroneously triggered by any hallucinatory mechanism.

This is why I brought up the blind man who couldn't see properly for a long time after his eyes had been repaired. The problem, casually speaking, was his brain had no vision "riffs" to use to sort things out. Things like shadows completely baffled him.

 

[tribdog]

Wouldn't it depend on why they were death? If they're missing the necessary parts of the brain, then no. But if it's just an ear problem, then it's entirely possible they can imagine (really simple) sounds.

Have they ever put a cochlear implant on someone who was death from birth?

somebody just has to fix this oxymoron. Someone cannot be death from birth.
deaf yes, death no.

 

[Yonoz]

somebody just has to fix this oxymoron. Someone cannot be death from birth.
deaf yes, death no.

There's an episode of the psychedelic show "The Prisoner" called "The girl who was death".
So there.

 

[Rade]

Time to let those totally deaf answer the OP question:

1. Shawn Barnett, born totally deaf:
http://www.workersforjesus.com/dfi/834.htm

2. ...By the age of 40, Beethoven could no longer perform as a pianist and in 1822, at the age of 52, he was totally deaf. Beethoven became even MORE temperamental and furious and channeled all his anger into his music. The Greatest Composition in Musical History, Beethoven's SYMPHONY #9 "THE CHORAL" (1824) was composed when he was TOTALLY DEAF!... (from internet)

“There begins in my head the development in every direction … the fundamental idea never deserts me - it rises before me - grows, I see and hear the picture in all its extent and dimensions stand before my mind like a cast …“ Ludwig Van Beethoven

3. From website of Maestro Lorin Maazel:

"I once conducted a concert at the Royal Festival Hall in London for the benefit of a school for deaf children, where, unbelievably, music is an integral part of the educational program. To display their skills, an hour before the concert was to be performed, the children from the school, all hearing-impaired, performed a musical program in the foyer of the hall. Their rhythm was impeccable, the tone quality delightful - I remember a 12-year-old flutist with a lovely vibrato - and the performance beyond reproach. Though partially and in most instances totally deaf, they had nevertheless been taught to "hear" music. The vibrations produced by the instruments were picked up from the wooden floor through the soles of their feet! Thus, they were in a position to adjust the intonation, monitor the rhythm and be aware of the sounds produced by their classmates. But above all, performing music required them to engage actively in a learning process that sharpened their awareness of themselves and helped motivate them to face life"

4. And here--the science:http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2001/11/011128035455.htm

 

[zoobyshoe]

3. From website of Maestro Lorin Maazel:

"I once conducted a concert at the Royal Festival Hall in London for the benefit of a school for deaf children, where, unbelievably, music is an integral part of the educational program. To display their skills, an hour before the concert was to be performed, the children from the school, all hearing-impaired, performed a musical program in the foyer of the hall. Their rhythm was impeccable, the tone quality delightful - I remember a 12-year-old flutist with a lovely vibrato - and the performance beyond reproach. Though partially and in most instances totally deaf, they had nevertheless been taught to "hear" music. The vibrations produced by the instruments were picked up from the wooden floor through the soles of their feet! Thus, they were in a position to adjust the intonation, monitor the rhythm and be aware of the sounds produced by their classmates. But above all, performing music required them to engage actively in a learning process that sharpened their awareness of themselves and helped motivate them to face life"

4. And here--the science:http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2001/11/011128035455.htm

These latter two examples are the relevant ones. These demonstrate that the deaf can distinguish between tones above bass notes, by sense of touch alone, and could, therefore, compose a melody.

Back to the OP:

I know if he reads them, then he can see that they have to have a pattern and in that sense, he can come up w/ them but can he come up w/ songs that he can feel?

As I said before, I take the "songs that he can feel" to mean music that moves him emotionally as it does us, as opposed to intellectually grasping and reproducing a pattern. Would a deaf person pick up a flute and compose a vibration composition for the pleasure of it, or is this ability to play something they do because it's part of the curriculum like math and whatever other subjects they're required to take?

When I was in grade school we were pushed and trained daily to acquire perfect penmanship in preparation for the National Penmanship Contest. As it turned out, we won first place out of every school in the country that entered. Yet, not one kid in my class enjoyed penmanship. At best it was "a learning process that sharpened their awareness of themselves and helped motivate them to face life."

So, the question in my mind, still, is whether or not music by sense of touch is emotionally moving the way music by sense of hearing is.

The deaf drummer is exclusively dealing with rhythm. That is much more accessible to touch and the feeling of hitting a drum is quite satisfying. I'm sure the experience of playing drums could be as emotionally moving to a deaf person as it is to a hearing person.

Beethoven doesn't count here at all because he did all his developing as a hearing person, and was writing "deaf", that is: in his head, well before he actually went deaf. Any decent composer can do this. Mozart also composed in his head, in his imagination, and wrote things down later. There's a bazillion people alive today who can do this. It's part of music training to know in your head what an interval sounds like. What Beethoven lost after going deaf was the ability to confirm how his compositions sounded and his confidence in performing them himself.

 

[Gelsamel Epsilon]

Yeh songs that he can 'feel'. As for the title of this thread, imagine the correct perception and result from the stimulus of sound waves on your ears? No.

 

[Midas]

This is a really interesting discussion with much intelligent debate and just one problem: deaf people can (and do) experience auditory hallucinations. Even people deaf from birth. It happens in schizophrenia and other conditions, and there are a lot of studies published on the subject. As to how it can happen... well, that's why there are so many studies! You'd think it was impossible, and there is debate about it amongst the psychologists and neurologists (are these hallucinations or pseudo-hallucinations; are patients reporting hallucinations of people speaking or are we misinterpreting what they are telling us: that sort of thing)...but the simple reality is, for more than 40 years I have been working with the mentally ill, and I regularly encounter profoundly deaf people who hear voices!

 

[hypnagogue]

This is a really interesting discussion with much intelligent debate and just one problem: deaf people can (and do) experience auditory hallucinations. Even people deaf from birth. It happens in schizophrenia and other conditions, and there are a lot of studies published on the subject. As to how it can happen... well, that's why there are so many studies! You'd think it was impossible, and there is debate about it amongst the psychologists and neurologists (are these hallucinations or pseudo-hallucinations; are patients reporting hallucinations of people speaking or are we misinterpreting what they are telling us: that sort of thing)...but the simple reality is, for more than 40 years I have been working with the mentally ill, and I regularly encounter profoundly deaf people who hear voices!

Are these people deaf from birth? If yes, how do you know that it is really an auditory hallucination? What studies are you referring to?

 

[zoobyshoe]

This is a really interesting discussion with much intelligent debate and just one problem: deaf people can (and do) experience auditory hallucinations. Even people deaf from birth. It happens in schizophrenia and other conditions, and there are a lot of studies published on the subject. As to how it can happen... well, that's why there are so many studies! You'd think it was impossible, and there is debate about it amongst the psychologists and neurologists (are these hallucinations or pseudo-hallucinations; are patients reporting hallucinations of people speaking or are we misinterpreting what they are telling us: that sort of thing)...but the simple reality is, for more than 40 years I have been working with the mentally ill, and I regularly encounter profoundly deaf people who hear voices!

In his book Seeing Voices, Neurologist Oliver Sacks has a long footnote about this on page 6. It's too long to quote here but he posits that the manner in which the deaf experience hallucinations of "voices" is quite different than what the hearing experience just as the interior monolog of the deaf is different than that of the hearing:

"Clayton Valli, a deaf sign poet, when a poem is coming to him, feels his own body making little signs-he is, as it were, speaking to himself, in his own voice."

A person born deaf would quite simply not understand any spoken language if they could suddenly hear, or if they had an accurate hallucination of the sound of spoken language. What the deaf-from-birth experience when they have the hallucination of being addressed by disembodied "voices" is certainly, therefore, the hallucination of the physical and mental and emotional reactions they have to being communicated with by sign language or lip reading without the accompanying visuals. Sacks says they don't claim to actually see disembodied hands signing or lips moving, and the deaf who experience these hallucinations are hard pressed to explain what it is they actually are experiencing, but, since they understand what's being said to them, and often sign back to the hallucinations addressing them, we can be sure they are not experiencing the hallucination of sound. There is no sound based language they are in a position to understand. Occasionally you run across mention of hearing psychotics who hallucinate the sound of people speaking in a foreign language they don't understand, and, they don't, indeed, understand what's being said.

Sign language isn't what you might suppose it is. It has a vital spatial component that spoken language does not:

The essential grammatical information of American Sign Langauge (ASL) is conveyed through changes in the movement and spatial contouring of the hands and arms.

http://portal.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=801139&coll=portal&dl=ACM#abstract

I saw Ursula Beluggi, one of the authors of that paper, and a pioneer researcher in how the brain processes sign language, interviewed on television a few years back, and she emphasized how the nuances of sign are essentially spatial. It is not a word for word analog of spoken language and how a sign speaker treats and manipulates the space in which they sign is, she says, a vital component of what is said.

That being the case, when the deaf experience the hallucination of being addressed we have to assume this includes the reception of spatial imformation, the physical feeling of spatial relationships, that hearing people just don't experience and which a deaf psychotic would be hard pressed to explain to a hearing person.