Would You Kill Lizards Hanging Around Your House & Pooping?

[BillTre]

So basically, instead of getting rid of the pathogen that causes the disease, you get rid of the life form that can live with the pathogen without any problem.

Malaria, one of the several diseases transmitted by the Anopheles mosquito kills more than 1/2 a million people EACH YEAR!
The Anopheles mosquito is invasive in the western hemisphere, thus not a natural part of that "natural environment".

It would be interesting to hear what you think would be a more effective way to deal with this kind of thing.
Unless you don't consider more than 1/2 a million dead people a year of no importance. This is only considering one of several deadly diseases this mosquito transmits.

Kind of like "Let's kill all people who have COVID and don't have symptoms to protect those who could suffer or die from it."

This is one of the stupidest comparisons I have ever heard.

• You would end up with more dead people using your proposed method.
• Killing people and insects are vastly different things.

Try coming up with a reasonable alternative approach,
or admit the low worth you have of human life in comparison with mosquitos.

 

[berkeman]

Thread paused for Moderation...

 

[berkeman]

After a Mentor discussion, the thread is reopened provisionally.

The OP's scenario is unfortunately pretty cruel, with traps that take days for the pests to die. As a hunter, I will always try to make any animal kill as quick and painless as possible, and for me that extends to killing pests. There are pest traps (like mousetraps) that perform quick kills that are much more preferable from my perspective.

 

[jim mcnamara]

Lets inject some basic biology.
pathogens are organisms that cause illness and death (pathology).
Transmissions:
Vectors transmit pathogens
Transmission of pathogens across species is called zoonosis.
There are more than 20 mammal species that broke out/ or can break out from humans:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_animals_that_can_get_SARS-CoV-2

So, consider: humans are potentially much more dangerous to animals than they are to us in terms of disease transmission.

 

[DaveC426913]

(And here I thought the pause for moderation had to do with the nasty insulting turn it looked like it was taking...)

 

[jack action]

It would be interesting to hear what you think would be a more effective way to deal with this kind of thing.

Methods used to prevent malaria include medications, mosquito elimination and the prevention of bites. As of 2022, there is one malaria vaccine for children which is licensed for use known as RTS,S. The presence of malaria in an area requires a combination of high human population density, high Anopheles mosquito population density and high rates of transmission from humans to mosquitoes and from mosquitoes to humans. If any of these is lowered sufficiently, the parasite eventually disappears from that area, as happened in North America, Europe, and parts of the Middle East.

Although mosquito control is an important component of malaria control strategy, elimination of malaria in an area does not require the elimination of all Anopheles mosquitoes. For instance, in North America and Europe, although the vector Anopheles mosquitoes are still present, the parasite has been eliminated. Some socioeconomic improvements (e.g., houses with screened windows, air conditioning), once combined with vector reduction efforts and effective treatment, lead to the elimination of malaria without the complete elimination of the vectors. Some important measures in mosquito control to be followed are: discourage egg-laying, prevent development of eggs into larvae and adults, kill the adult mosquitoes, do not allow adult mosquitoes into places of human dwelling, prevent mosquitoes from biting human beings and deny them blood meals.

Killing people and insects are vastly different things.

Is it? This is assuming mosquitos are "evil" and play no other role than to kill humans. Very unlikely based on simple observations and errors committed in the past, trying to "correct" nature.

admit the low worth you have of human life in comparison with mosquitos.

It is you who considers the low worth of mosquitos in comparison to humans. It is a dangerous path to take. How many people need to die from one life form for one to decide to eradicate that life form? If one values human life above all, isn't a single human death enough? Comparing one individual with another is one thing, comparing one life form over another is vastly different.

I thought the great lesson learned was that diversity rules and we all depend on each other, even beyond the animal kingdom.

 

[BillTre]

Is it? This is assuming mosquitos are "evil" and play no other role than to kill humans. Very unlikely based on simple observations and errors committed in the past, trying to "correct" nature.

You are mistaken if you think that everything is equally import in nature (considering nature as the network of their interactions).
The main species of mosquito that transmits these many deadly diseases is invasive from Africa. The ecosystem there will probably be fine without it.

It is you who considers the low worth of mosquitos in comparison to humans.

Good. I was hoping I made myself clear.

It is a dangerous path to take. How many people need to die from one life form for one to decide to eradicate that life form? If one values human life above all, isn't a single human death enough?

You are over simplifying complex issues, but probably rhetorically.

Comparing one individual with another is one thing, comparing one life form over another is vastly different.

Some phylogeneticists think of different life forms as individuals evolving on a phylogenetic tree.
Not really sure what the point is here.
Just as no two "life forms" are going to be the same, neither are individual organisms.

 

[pinball1970]

We (royal we) used to trap them in cages then release them back into the wild, where they would make their way back into the facility... It was a part of the world where the culture prevented the killing of animals.

You could try a stuffed predator? A snake? we had an issue with pigeons in the same part of the world. I was thinking poison or shooting them, my guide whispered in my ear, "whatever you do, don't suggest killing them."

I was so focussed on the technical parts of the visit I had not thought about the culture (like an idiot.)

We ended up getting these swirling geometric shapes that scared them off.

They eventually worked out big plastic eagles did not pose much of threat but geckos / lizards may not have that intellectual ability.

 

[jack action]

Going back to the subject at hand, what you need is not to kill them - especially if they are useful - but just to repel them from the house. Look for "lizard repellent". It seems they are very sensitive to smell.

​

 

[BWV]

cats and certain small dog breeds are good lizard killers. We had an American Eskimo dog that was a prolific lizard slayer

 

[BillTre]

Perhaps surprisingly, exterminators (at least in Oregon) know a lot about non-lethal ways to get rid of vermin.
I have used these guys to get rid of roaches and silverfish using things like plants extracts they don't like. We did this because using poisons in animal facilities is considered dangerous to the animals being kept in the facility.
It would not be surprising if there are similar things for lizards.

 

[Vanadium 50]

Perhaps surprisingly, exterminators (at least in Oregon) know a lot about non-lethal ways to get rid of vermin.

Good for repeat business.

 

[kyphysics]

cats and certain small dog breeds are good lizard killers. We had an American Eskimo dog that was a prolific lizard slayer

An acquaintance of mine says it depends on whether they are well-fed and domesticated at home or not. A hungry feral cat/dog might be great at catching these. But, he said a fat, lazy, pampered cat might be totally useless. He says his neighbor has many such cats. They won't even move an inch if a mouse walks by. Just stares and does nothing.

 

[BWV]

An acquaintance of mine says it depends on whether they are well-fed and domesticated at home or not. A hungry feral cat/dog might be great at catching these. But, he said a fat, lazy, pampered cat might be totally useless. He says his neighbor has many such cats. They won't even move an inch if a mouse walks by. Just stares and does nothing.

Domesticated cats kill for fun, not food

 

[jack action]

An acquaintance of mine says it depends on whether they are well-fed and domesticated at home or not. A hungry feral cat/dog might be great at catching these. But, he said a fat, lazy, pampered cat might be totally useless. He says his neighbor has many such cats. They won't even move an inch if a mouse walks by. Just stares and does nothing.

Female cats are better at hunting mice. How to Choose the Perfect Mouse-Catching Cat

 

[kyphysics]

Someone should write/code an algorithm that figures out what happens in a defined ecosystem when you kill x, y or z members in it. I'd use that software and see what effects killing lizards, spiders, snakes, etc. have.

 

[BillTre]

Someone should write/code an algorithm that figures out what happens in a defined ecosystem when you kill x, y or z members in it. I'd use that software and see what effects killing lizards, spiders, snakes, etc. have.

They've been doing ecological studies on these things at least since the 1970's.
In each case you need to know a lot about how the ecosystem and how it parts interact before you could make any predictions.
Software along will not suffice.

 

[kyphysics]

They've been doing ecological studies on these things at least since the 1970's.
In each case you need to know a lot about how the ecosystem and how it parts interact before you could make any predictions.
Software along will not suffice.

Right, I mean, have the scientists consult.

I can definitely see how it'd be tough to make it accurate, given there are probably lots of unknowns still about how things interact. Maybe for a very small, simple ecosystem the predictability would be very high/accurate. I'm in the suburbs of a decent-sized city, where I'd imagine it'd be super tough.

Lots of people here have roof rat (they are black and small) problems. Lots of people have cockroach problems too. Those are the two most common.

The Home Depot three miles away from me has giant rat problems. I've seen them running up the walls. They are over 1 foot long and very thick. The clerk told me DO NOT buy the snacks near the registers. The rats tear those open at night to eat. What's interesting is that the clerk said they have feral cats that roam the outdoor garden and parking lot areas. But they DO NOT try to hunt the giant rats. He's seen them near each other and the cats do not try to attack them. Those rats are HUUUUUUUUUUUUUGE!

 

[DaveC426913]

The main species of mosquito that transmits these many deadly diseases is invasive from Africa. The ecosystem there will probably be fine without it.

Invasive or no, it may still play an important part in the ecosystem. For example, bats feast on mosquitos. If the mosquitos go, it's possible the bats go. Or perhaps the bats stay and find a new food source, crowding out some other insectivore. The trouble is, we don't know what is interlinked in the food web.

 

[jrmichler]

Someone should write/code an algorithm that figures out what happens in a defined ecosystem when you kill x, y or z members in it. I'd use that software and see what effects killing lizards, spiders, snakes, etc. have.

The trouble is, we don't know what is interlinked in the food web.

This has been attempted in the fisheries area. Even in small seepage lakes, which are simpler biosystems than on land, nobody has been able to create useable software. To get an idea of the complexity of lake ecology, start by reading Limnology by Wetzel. Then follow that by reading The Trophic Cascade in Lakes by Carpenter and Kitchell. Then realize that the food web on land is even more complex.

An interesting article on trying to affect a species population by removing its predators: https://phys.org/news/2022-05-scales-walleye-fish.html. That research lake is an 82 acre lake a half hour drive from my house. I have had the privilege of discussing this research project with two of the investigators.

 

[gleem]

Invasive or no, it may still play an important part in the ecosystem. For example, bats feast on mosquitos. If the mosquitos go, it's possible the bats go. Or perhaps the bats stay and find a new food source, crowding out some other insectivore. The trouble is, we don't know what is interlinked in the food web.

That is exactly the problem with many disastrous interventions in ecosystems, the parts of an ecosystem are so interconnected that you cannot see how one part affects another. You remove some insignificant creature or plant when you destroy a habitat which causes another creature to either perish or adapt causing a domino effect as other creatures must adapt in response. This can result in a sort of butterfly effect.

Did you know that bats are a critical factor in the pollination of mangos, bananas, and avocados so the elimination of some species will come back to haunt us.

Nuisance animals are usually human acclimated and are a nuisance for a reason. Their control is necessary but must be effective. Fix the leak instead of constantly bailing out the boat

NYC is using carbon monoxide to kill rats which is very effective but they will return because the root cause of their infestation is not addressed. You have rats, mice, and cockroaches because your place is easy pickings.

Home Depot sells rat traps and poison, use them, they do not need to have food in the store for the small amount of revenue that it generates. Bird seeds on the other hand can be easily made inaccessible to mice and rats.

 

[pinball1970]

That is exactly the problem with many disastrous interventions in ecosystems, the parts of an ecosystem are so interconnected that you cannot see how one part affects another. You remove some insignificant creature or plant when you destroy a habitat which causes another creature to either perish or adapt causing a domino effect as other creatures must adapt in response. This can result in a sort of butterfly effect.

Did you know that bats are a critical factor in the pollination of mangos, bananas, and avocados so the elimination of some species will come back to haunt us.

Nuisance animals are usually human acclimated and are a nuisance for a reason. Their control is necessary but must be effective. Fix the leak instead of constantly bailing out the boat

NYC is using carbon monoxide to kill rats which is very effective but they will return because the root cause of their infestation is not addressed. You have rats, mice, and cockroaches because your place is easy pickings.

Home Depot sells rat traps and poison, use them, they do not need to have food in the store for the small amount of revenue that it generates. Bird seeds on the other hand can be easily made inaccessible to mice and rats.

Disagree, we can risk it. If we can introduce a sterile version (mosquito )into the population that takes over and causes its own destruction then we should do it.
It is termed the world's "most dangerous animal" by the WHO for a reason.
Malaria, zica, Yellow fever. I'm with the biologist on this. Edit: https://www.who.int/health-topics/lymphatic-filariasis#tab=tab_1
@BillTre

 

[gleem]

Disagree,

With what? I don't advocate putting up with anything that is dangerous. It's them or us.

 

[pinball1970]

With what? I don't advocate putting up with anything that is dangerous. It's them or us.

Oops, it was Dave not you apologies.

Tampering with the eco system and removing a player is a risk, agreed.

In this case the numbers support annihilation of this animal in my opinion.
Why wait?
Death is one metric but there is also Ill, very ill, and near death removing billions of productive hours of those third world economies.

 

[DaveC426913]

Disagree, we can risk it. If we can introduce a sterile version (mosquito )into the population that takes over and causes its own destruction then we should do it.

That would collapse several branches of the ecosystem.

It is termed the world's "most dangerous animal" by the WHO for a reason.

The smart thing would be to address the disease, not the carrier.

 

[BillTre]

That would collapse several branches of the ecosystem.

How would this happen?
Several branches of the ecosystem?
What exactly do you mean by this?

 

[DaveC426913]

How would this happen?
Several branches of the ecosystem?
What exactly do you mean by this?

Well, birds, bats, frogs, dragonflies, fish, spiders, turtles - depend on mosquitos, some species almost exclusively.
https://www.orkin.com/pests/mosquitoes/what-eats-mosquitoes
So let's see, that's mammals, reptiles, amphibians, birds, insects and fish.

Bats can eat up to 1200 mosquitos per hour.
https://www.google.com/search?q=what+eats+mosquitoes

 

[BillTre]

Well, birds, bats, frogs, dragonflies, fish, spiders, turtles - depend on mosquitos, some species almost exclusively.
https://www.orkin.com/pests/mosquitoes/what-eats-mosquitoes
So let's see, that's mammals, reptiles, amphibians, birds, insects and fish.

From your own reference:

While bats eat mosquitoes, they are far more effective at locating, catching and eating insects other than mosquitoes.

The others eat some mosquitos, but I doubt they depend upon them. For one thing, mosquitos adults and larvae are seasonal.

In the Western hemisphere, Anopheles mosquito are invasive animals.
They either slipped into a vacant place in the food net or they displaced native organisms to make their living. Not likely to be something that something else DEPENDS upon for its living.

There are many species of mosquitos in many environments. The Anopheles mosquito is probably not a major component of the ecosystems in which they reside.
The Anopheles mosquito is not a keystone species whose presence stabilizes whole ecosystems.

Bats can eat up to 1200 mosquitos per hour.
https://www.google.com/search?q=what+eats+mosquitoes

"Can" doesn't mean that they do that all the time. They likely have a varied diet.

 

[gleem]

There are many species of mosquitos

About 3500.

 

[pinball1970]

Well, birds, bats, frogs, dragonflies, fish, spiders, turtles - depend on mosquitos, some species almost exclusively.
https://www.orkin.com/pests/mosquitoes/what-eats-mosquitoes
So let's see, that's mammals, reptiles, amphibians, birds, insects and fish.

Bats can eat up to 1200 mosquitos per hour.
https://www.google.com/search?q=what+eats+mosquitoes

Some background Dave as I appreciate your response.

As I said, historically this animal has caused huge problems to human health and continues to do so.
If the planet climate baseline temperature continues to rise then it's habitat could move west and north.

A quick summary here. https://www.cdc.gov/globalhealth/stories/2019/world-deadliest-animal.html#:~:text=Spreading diseases like malaria, dengue,home and around the world.

This recently https://eu.thespectrum.com/story/ne...oes-reported-near-lake-mead-water/1419323001/

Historically when you remove them locally

https://www.insectweek.org/blog/mosquitoes-and-the-panama-canal/#:~:text=Of the tens of thousands,the disease gets its name).