Is it time to rethink the name of Theory Development in the Physics section?

  • Thread starter Thread starter ZapperZ
  • Start date Start date
AI Thread Summary
The discussion centers on the appropriateness of the "Theory Development" section in a physics forum, with suggestions to rename it to better reflect its content, which many consider to be more akin to "quackery." Participants express concerns that the current name misrepresents the nature of the discussions, which often lack scientific rigor and development. There is a proposal to relocate this section to the PF Lounge to reduce its prominence above legitimate physics discussions. Some argue that while the content is often misguided, it serves as a learning opportunity for newcomers to differentiate between valid theories and non-scientific ideas. Overall, the consensus leans towards re-evaluating the section's name and placement to improve clarity and maintain the forum's educational integrity.
ZapperZ
Staff Emeritus
Science Advisor
Homework Helper
Insights Author
Messages
32,814
Reaction score
4,725
Is there a reason why we do not rename Theory Development section for what it really is - Quackeries (or Crackpots, or Cranks, etc)? The name, as it stands, is false advertisement. There are more "guesses" than theories, and there's barely anything "developing" other than making its way into oblivion.

I would also suggest that TD be moved out of the main Physics section and into the PF Lounge section (I would rather it be removed, but that's not going to happen). It doesn't belong in General Physics - a lot of the stuff in there can't even be called physics. It certainly should not be listed above the legitimate postings of the General Physics section.

Zz.
 
Physics news on Phys.org
Well, you COULD say, that since it is under DEVELOPMENT, it certainly can't be called a theory to speak of..:wink:
Alternatively, I wish TD a very good riddance.
 
arildno said:
Well, you COULD say, that since it is under DEVELOPMENT, it certainly can't be called a theory to speak of..:wink:
Alternatively, I wish TD a very good riddance.


You have spoken the truth,young man... :approve:

Do we really care whether the name is inaccurate...?I mean,how many of your really read the posts from TD...?

Daniel.
 
Actually, I find ZapperZ's objection to its placement (and also, IMO, its existence) very appropriate.
 
ZapperZ
The public have many misconceptions about science, as i am a
member of this group i am one of them,i have read many of the
threads you have contributed to, you come across as a knowledgeable
no nonsense type, which i like, but how do you define a crackpot?
some of them are intelligent well read people who just want attention,
some may believe in there theories but can not get them past peer
review, and then there are the religious crackpots who refuse to
listen to logic.
I support getting rid of miss guiding science or just wrong science
but where do you draw the line?
 
wolram,

The vast majority of cases of crackpottery on the web are black and white cases. For example, when someone starts a discussion with a dimensionally-incorrect equation (distance = time * mass!), or uses words without defining them ("the dimension of the shadow vortex resulting in gravity is inside the dimension of time"), it is obvious even at a cursory glance that it's crackpot work.

In the very few cases where a viable yet non-mainstream theory has been presented here, we have banished neither the theory or the member. Our purpose is not to stifle all inquiry, only clearly non-scientific inquiry.

Zapper's right, TD is a misnomer. We used to call it Theory Development in a sort of tongue-in-cheek, condescendingly-polite way. On the other hand, I don't really want to call it "Crackpot Crap" or similar, because it has been said before that our forum is already rather intimidating to those who are new to science, and I want to avoid furthering that image. We intend to warmly welcome people with all levels of experience, and asking questions, even quite silly ones, is a great way to learn.

- Warren
 
wolram said:
ZapperZ
The public have many misconceptions about science, as i am a
member of this group i am one of them,i have read many of the
threads you have contributed to, you come across as a knowledgeable
no nonsense type, which i like, but how do you define a crackpot?
some of them are intelligent well read people who just want attention,
some may believe in there theories but can not get them past peer
review, and then there are the religious crackpots who refuse to
listen to logic.
I support getting rid of miss guiding science or just wrong science
but where do you draw the line?

Honestly, unlike some grey area of knowledge, in 95% of the time, such distinction is OBVIOUS, at least to anyone who has had any training in physics. I can spot a quack 10 miles away... at the age of 8!

Here's what you can use as a measuring stick: Check if that person has produced any peer-reviewed paper, especially in the area that he/she is trying to sell. If no, then this person has no business in espousing any personal theory. PERIOD. This is an automatic quackery.

However, if you care to use a more "gentile" scale, then you are welcome to go to either of these two sites:

http://insti.physics.sunysb.edu/~siegel/quack.html
http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/crackpot.html

Have fun!

Zz.
 
chroot said:
Zapper's right, TD is a misnomer. We used to call it Theory Development in a sort of tongue-in-cheek, condescendingly-polite way. On the other hand, I don't really want to call it "Crackpot Crap" or similar, because it has been said before that our forum is already rather intimidating to those who are new to science, and I want to avoid furthering that image. We intend to warmly welcome people with all levels of experience, and asking questions, even quite silly ones, is a great way to learn.

- Warren

Then can we at least shove it down the display chain a bit so that it isn't THAT obvious, especially when it is listed above the General Physics section? I think having it listed in the PF lounge is a fair compromise, don't you think?

Zz.
 
Chroot, zapper z, i think you are talking along the right lines, please
do away with all the crap that miss guides all the non profesionals,
but please leave the improbale but possible.
 
  • #10
Chroot has pretty much explained why we have it and how we try to maintain a diplomatic balance with it. For the meantime I did see something we could change to highlight it less, I took down the link on the homepage pointing to it under the sub-forum links for the physics forum.
 
  • #11
Greg Bernhardt said:
Chroot has pretty much explained why we have it and how we try to maintain a diplomatic balance with it. For the meantime I did see something we could change to highlight it less, I took down the link on the homepage pointing to it under the sub-forum links for the physics forum.

Indeed, i think we should leave things as they are, since it's just fine like this. Moving TD to the PF-Lounge is a bit useless to me because it won't change nothing about the 'content' and that is the only thing that really 'matters'. Indeed most of the TD-content is just a clear manifestation of lack of physical knowledge but who is going to care whether subforum it is in, really ? If you don't like it, then don't visit it...'Point final'

regards
marlon
 
  • #12
marlon said:
Indeed, i think we should leave things as they are, since it's just fine like this. Moving TD to the PF-Lounge is a bit useless to me because it won't change nothing about the 'content' and that is the only thing that really 'matters'. Indeed most of the TD-content is just a clear manifestation of lack of physical knowledge but who is going to care whether subforum it is in, really ? If you don't like it, then don't visit it...'Point final'

regards
marlon
There are actually cranks out there that will find it insulting to post what they believe is genuine science in a non-science section of the forum. I wouldn't be surprised to find crackpottery dying some by moving TD to a less "serious" place.
 
  • #13
Gokul43201 said:
There are actually cranks out there that will find it insulting to post what they believe is genuine science in a non-science section of the forum. I wouldn't be surprised to find crackpottery dying some by moving TD to a less "serious" place.

Of course the feedback forum would then become a very popular place as they all ran over here to complain (or had their complaints in other forums moved here). They get a bit miffed when you pull back the curtain and reveal them for the crackpots they are. :rolleyes:
 
  • #14
PF has, compared to most openly accessible science-interested sites I have seen, just about the lowest activity of pot-cracking.
This is the result of good mentorship at PF.

While TD remains an irritant, I found chroot's post particularly relevant here:
Suppose a young guy comes along who has some questions or ideas about science:
If he sees that unconventional posts are summarily deleted with no one even answering them, would we scare off a person who might be genuinely science interested, but still has not developed sufficient knowledge/understanding to sift the bad from the good?

If, however, TD remains open for view, with mostly closed threads as it is today, that young person has the opportunity to COMPARE the quality of posts in TD with the quality of posts elsewhere on PF.
He may come to understand WHY those threads have been closed.
 
  • #15
I doubt any mentor would summarily dismiss a genuinely interesting post on regular forums. Besides, some of us enjoy torturing prisoners before executing them.
 
  • #16
Anyway most members don't have sufficient privileges to post a thread in the 'Theory and Development forum'.
 
  • #17
It would be quite interesting (read "abnormal"),if one of the staff members were to open a thread in TD (just because he/she can),wouldn't u say...?

Daniel.
 
  • #18
I don't have a clue what you're talking about...Could u provide the mortals with a link to the non peer-reviewed article...?:bugeye:

Daniel.
 
  • #19
dextercioby said:
I don't have a clue what you're talking about...Could u provide the mortals with a link to the non peer-reviewed article...?:bugeye:

Daniel.
Nope, I don't have that.
 
  • #20
Then u diserve at least a warning.:-p

Daniel.

EDIT:Lucky i didn't quote you... :-p We'll see... :rolleyes: :-p
 
Last edited:
  • #21
dextercioby said:
Then u diserve at least a warning.:-p

Daniel.
I have too many, I didn't dare to invoke Integral's wrath on this, so I removed the offending post before he could see it..
(I hope he doesn't have rights to see deleted posts..)
 
  • #22
arildno said:
If he sees that unconventional posts are summarily deleted with no one even answering them, would we scare off a person who might be genuinely science interested, but still has not developed sufficient knowledge/understanding to sift the bad from the good?

There are two distinct issues here:

1. A genuine question is NOT the same as spewing off a theory out of ignorance. Someone coming in here and asking "Look, I think I have this idea of moving faster than c, but can you tell me why this can't work?" is differnt than "I have a unified theory of physics using the same principle as the mechanics of grooming cat hairs". I have seen both types (and I'm guessing you have too), and I believe they have been handled accordingly. I just wish the latter is labelled for what it is into a section that would clearly indicates that it is quackery and not given some esoteric name. New members just don't know that "Theory Development" is our polite term for "losers". (well, wolram DID say that I'm the "no nonsense" type of person) :)

2. How many cases do we have where someone got scared off because such posts were deleted? I have seen similar types of arguments being put forth by the quacks when their posts are deleted. They're claiming that we MIGHT be cutting off something that could be fruitful. When I ask them to show even ONE single instance where something produced entirely outside the realm of peer-reviewed journals within the past 100 years or so that has produced any significant advancement in physics, they balk and suddenly became "deaf, dumb, and blind". We can't speculate ad nauseum of all the possible things that could happen to try to cater to everyone. That is just not possible.

I see PF as an extremely valuable physics resource with a very high signal-to-noise ratio. I'm just offering a simple suggestion in trying to increase this ratio by lowering the noise.

Zz.
 
  • #23
hehe.. my first ever theory in HS was..

IF E=m*c^2 and F=m*a, then E=(F*c^2)/a. Obviously my HS teacher was pissed at me for about 5 minutes trying to explain why its incorrect :smile:
 
  • #24
cronxeh said:
hehe.. my first ever theory in HS was..

IF E=m*c^2 and F=m*a, then E=(F*c^2)/a. Obviously my HS teacher was pissed at me for about 5 minutes trying to explain why its incorrect :smile:

I'm surprised that your teacher didn't move you into a "Theory Development" class! :)

Zz.
 
  • #25
ZapperZ said:
I see PF as an extremely valuable physics resource with a very high signal-to-noise ratio.
Beautiful ! Spoken like a true experimentalist ! :approve:
 
  • #26
arildno said:
I have too many,

What are you talking about? Your warning count is zero.

I didn't dare to invoke Integral's wrath on this, so I removed the offending post before he could see it..
(I hope he doesn't have rights to see deleted posts..)

He does, and so do the rest of us. Muhahahahahaha! :devil:
 
  • #27
Yeah I remember the first time I saw theory development in General Physics. Now I was in general impressed by the quality of posts and the signal to nose ratio on physicsforums. So when I saw TD I thought to myself how in hell can you have serious theory development on a public online forum.

After glancing at a few threads I thought oh, “theory development.”

If TD was a gathering place for crackpots and other ne’er-do-wells then it would most defiantly need to be removed, but as it is, it is not.

In my mind getting rid of TD and deleting quackeries on site would perhaps attract a more experienced crowd while scaring off some of the inexperienced younger crowd.

From what I have seen I think the current set up strikes a good balance.

I think I understand you sentiment ZapperZ I am sure every one here would agree that it would be horrible for people to come along and connect what is in TD to solid science. The experienced crowd knows what TD is and would never connect what is there to legitimate physics. The inexperienced younger crowd however may not always be able to separate the legitimate physics and the quackeries.

Even though the younger crowd may no always be able to tell the difference, the number of closed threads and the mentors note at the end of each thread will leave the impression that this quackeries are not looked highly upon. This will also nude them gently to a more skeptical view point.

Critical and skeptical thinking is a learned behavior and exposure to quackeries, with the proper environment, fosters a skeptical view point rather then breading more quackeries. The proper environment in this case would be the rest of physics forums full of “knowledgeable no nonsense” types.

That’s my opinion anyway.
 
  • #28
Tom Mattson said:
What are you talking about? Your warning count is zero.
Is it?
Am I good boy, then?
Oh dear..
 
Last edited:
  • #29
I like the idea of renaming Theory Development to more accurately describe its content. But we don't have to call it Crackpot's Corner or something like that. Surely we can come up with a description that's relatively neutral in tone. How about Speculative Ideas?
 
  • #30
How can we (you) develope new theories without theory development? Sure, you will always get crackpots (like me?) but they may cause you (us) to think latterly.
Who was that crackpot that came up with the theory of the Earth going around the sun? Wasn't he forced to recant his ideas because of attitudes like some of the ones on this thread?
This is an awesome site!
 
  • #31
Uno Lee said:
How can we (you) develope new theories without theory development? Sure, you will always get crackpots (like me?) but they may cause you (us) to think latterly.
Who was that crackpot that came up with the theory of the Earth going around the sun? Wasn't he forced to recant his ideas because of attitudes like some of the ones on this thread?

You must obviously be a new member. If you care to do a search in this section of PF, your argument by bringing up Galileo as an example has been done and addressed on here. By equating what and HOW galileo did his work with crackpot, you are insulting him. And by doing this, you are providing a clear example of what I had said earlier, that some people cannot tell the difference between quackery and legitimate work.

Zz.
 
  • #32
I was thinking, wrongly, of Copernicus and I was not meaning in any way to speak ill of the dead. I think it is difficult for new ideas to surface in a climate of repression. Every idea, right or wrong could lead to another. A couple of years ago, people thought oil and water (on Earth) did not mix, turns out they do, if you de-gas them first. Could this new knowledge be applied to mixing liquid metals? What does immiscible mean any more? I am new here and still learning not learned...yet.
 
  • #33
Uno Lee said:
I was thinking, wrongly, of Copernicus and I was not meaning in any way to speak ill of the dead. I think it is difficult for new ideas to surface in a climate of repression. Every idea, right or wrong could lead to another. A couple of years ago, people thought oil and water (on Earth) did not mix, turns out they do, if you de-gas them first. Could this new knowledge be applied to mixing liquid metals? What does immiscible mean any more? I am new here and still learning not learned...yet.

All you need to do is, as I have repeatedly mentioned on here and elsewhere, is to show an example from within the past 100 years, of an idea that never appeared in a peer-reviewed journal that has made a significant advancement in the body of knowledge of physics.

If you can't, then what you just did is making a speculation of what MIGHT happen without any proof that such a thing CAN actually happen. I can take the pieces of a broken vase, and throw it onto the floor. Now there's a very miniscule chance that the vase can spontaneously reassemble itself into its original form. But I can tell you that I am not (and the society isn't) designed to operate around such possibility. What you just did was to speculate a scenario that has NEVER happened.

If someone has a brilliant idea, an open physics forum is NOT the place to do it. Find a knowledgeable person in that subject area, and get his/her review of that idea. Then if it passes that test, submit it to a peer-reviewed journal. The fact that there are many different tiers of journals means if something has any smell of validity, it WILL get published somewhere even if it doesn't have the same caliber as Science, Nature, or PRL. If something has cranky as the Podkletnov's antigravity and Fleishman-Pons cold fusion can get published, then there's no excuse.

Zz.
 
  • #34
Thank you for your valuable time and advice.
 
  • #35
All you need to do is, as I have repeatedly mentioned on here and elsewhere, is to show an example from within the past 100 years, of an idea that never appeared in a peer-reviewed journal that has made a significant advancement in the body of knowledge of physics.

So where does Afred Wegener(plate tectonics) fit in? and Michael Mann?

Wegener formulated the very obvious about the shapes of the continents fitting into each other. I don't recall a peer reviewed publication about that. Nevertheless acceptance of that idea took a few decades even though the hypothesis did not kill any pet idea of any leading "pope"-geologist.

Then we have "pope" Michael Mann, proposing the Hockeystick, disdaining the Medieval Warm Period and the Little Ice Age. Accepted by the IPCC with great joy within seconds, then in 1999. This was ultimately causing the enforcement of the Kyoto treaty and doomed the signees in the process. Mann´s work was highly biased and utterly falsified, however it did not make any difference, because this kind of science is politics and whatever politics require, science will produce.
 
Last edited:
  • #36
Andre said:
So where does Afred Wegener(plate tectonics) fit in? and Michael Mann?

Wegener formulated the very obvious about the shapes of the continents fitting into each other. I don't recall a peer reviewed publication about that. Nevertheless acceptance of that idea took a few decades even though the hypothesis did not kill any pet idea of any leading "pope"-geologist.

Then we have "pope" Michael Mann, proposing the Hockeystick, disdaining the Medieval Warm Period and the Little Ice Age. Accepted by the IPCC with great joy within seconds, then in 1999. This was ultimately causing the enforcement of the Kyoto treaty and doomed the signees in the process. Mann´s work was highly biased and utterly falsified, however it did not make any difference, because this kind of science is politics and whatever politics require, science will produce.

As much as I wish to take up the whole burden of SCIENCE in general, I will not. I specficially asked for ideas in PHYSICS (in case people read TOO fast and miss that). I will not pretend to espouse any knowledge on how things are done in other fields of science.

I have asked that same question towards the quacks for almost 15 years, ever since the early days of the Usenet, and till now. Not even once has there been any example (not even one) given to contradict that rule.

Zz.
 
  • #37
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but scientific journals (including physics journals) are published and survive based on economic principles. A journal is more marketable the more it satisfies the consumer's demands.

What are those demands? Do physicists want more articles about string-theory than they do about twistor theory? String theory wasn't very marketable a few decades ago. How much of peer review is governed by "fashion" and ordinary market forces?

Is there "peer pressure" in physics? If so, how much?
 
  • #38
Telos said:
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but scientific journals (including physics journals) are published and survive based on economic principles. A journal is more marketable the more it satisfies the consumer's demands.

What are those demands? Do physicists want more articles about string-theory than they do about twistor theory? String theory wasn't very marketable a few decades ago. How much of peer review is governed by "fashion" and ordinary market forces?

Is there "peer pressure" in physics? If so, how much?

What scientific journals did you have in mind? Science, all the Physical Reviews, all the IoP journals, etc. are all published by NON-PROFIT organizations. The Physical Reviews, for example, are published by the American Physical Society, which is the professional society for physicists in the US. They, more than anyone else, want to make sure the journals integrety are preserved.

I am one of the referrees for PRL, PRB, and J. Elect. Spect. I have NEVER seen any so-called "economic pressure" in deciding what paper I should accept or reject, or how I should review certain papers.

But more than anything else, people are forgetting that Nature really do not care about politics. You cannot make something to be valid when it isn't! This isn't some human social theory or ideas in which reproducibility isn't necessary.

Zz.
 
  • #39
ZapperZ said:
All you need to do is, as I have repeatedly mentioned on here and elsewhere, is to show an example from within the past 100 years, of an idea that never appeared in a peer-reviewed journal that has made a significant advancement in the body of knowledge of physics.
I'd be interested in some ideas you do consider to be significant advancements in the body of knowledge of physics.
 
  • #40
NoTime said:
I'd be interested in some ideas you do consider to be significant advancements in the body of knowledge of physics.

Sure. Here they are:

1. All of Einstein's 1905 papers
2. BCS Theory
3. All of the PRL papers listed in the PRL Top 10 citations (see my Journal entry on all of them)
4. The high-Tc discovery of Bednorz and Muller + the MgB2 discovery by Akimitsu and Co.
5. Fractional quantum hall effect
6. All of the papers listed in http://fangio.magnet.fsu.edu/~vlad/pr100/100yrs/html/chap14_toc.htm
7. etc.

Zz.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
  • #41
ZapperZ said:
What scientific journals did you have in mind? Science, all the Physical Reviews, all the IoP journals, etc. are all published by NON-PROFIT organizations. The Physical Reviews, for example, are published by the American Physical Society, which is the professional society for physicists in the US. They, more than anyone else, want to make sure the journals integrety are preserved.

I am one of the referrees for PRL, PRB, and J. Elect. Spect. I have NEVER seen any so-called "economic pressure" in deciding what paper I should accept or reject, or how I should review certain papers.

But more than anything else, people are forgetting that Nature really do not care about politics. You cannot make something to be valid when it isn't! This isn't some human social theory or ideas in which reproducibility isn't necessary.

Zz.

Thank you for the reply, and forgive me for not writing my post very clearly. As an Econ student, I forget that others are not automatically familiar with what I mean by "economic principles."

Non-profit organizations are subjected to the same kind of analysis from economists as for-profit organizations. Basically, the principle is "choice due to scarcity." For example, physicists have scarce (read "finite") resources and cannot engage in every theory or proposal that exists in the marketplace of ideas. No matter the motive, ideas will always cost time and money (read "resources"). So decisions must be made on which ideas will be examined.

I am not questioning the "impartiality" of the decision-making process, but the factors that drive it. It does not make much sense to an economist to examine whether or not people are partial or impartial - they will always be partial. There most certainly cannot be impartiality because we must be partial to handful of ideas - because we cannot explore them all at once. Resources are scarce. We cannot have everything all at once. We have to make a decision.

I have problems with this "axiom of scarcity," because it seems to close the door on significant explorations of human behavior and whether or not scarcity really matters. Nonetheless, it is the origin from whence my question comes.

I didn't mean to ask about "economic pressure," (and to be fair I didn't actually say that!) but to ask how close does "peer review" come to "peer pressure?" Of course, the best theories are those that work and can be demonstrably proven, but what guides the process of "work?" People! Since people are the agents who drive theoretical development, they necessarily involve themselves in a social dynamic (one that includes a desire for an objective mathematical description of the universe).

I did not mean to denigrate peer review or the fine people that engage in it. But can we dismiss theories simply because they do not find themselves in peer review journals? Or, in other words, can we dismiss theories simply because other people have dismissed them?

Is the "objectiveness" of a theory intimately entwined with its degree of social acceptability?

Maybe social acceptability determines what we mean by "objectiveness," and not the other way around as we currently assume? I cannot pretend to know the answer.

It is not acceptable to combine "F=ma" and "E=mc^2." The differences in the equations are semiotic. The symbols in one are interpreted differently than in the other, even though they can be calculated using the same mathematical rules. But, then, they both make efficient use of space, and even more efficient use of calculation. Both can be simply applied, without the use of a high amount of resources, which are scarce.
Even though they're incompatible with each other, we choose to keep them both.

What does that say about our approach to theory development and acceptance? Why do we appear to have a tendency to accept theories of big and small that directly oppose one another?

Sorry, I am after all just a frustrated student. o:)
 
Last edited:
  • #42
Telos said:
Non-profit organizations are subjected to the same kind of analysis from economists as for-profit organizations. Basically, the principle is "choice due to scarcity." For example, physicists have scarce (read "finite") resources and cannot engage in every theory or proposal that exists in the marketplace of ideas. No matter the motive, ideas will always cost time and money (read "resources"). So decisions must be made on which ideas will be examined.

But you also need to do your homework. To what extent is your understanding about how things work would be relevant to this case? I'm not questioning that what you are asking does happen, but unless you are proclaiming that such an issue is a UNIVERSAL principle, I think you need to consider the possibility that maybe it doesn't apply here.

I didn't mean to ask about "economic pressure," (and to be fair I didn't actually say that!) but to ask how close does "peer review" come to "peer pressure?" Of course, the best theories are those that work and can be demonstrably proven, but what guides the process of "work?" People! Since people are the agents who drive theoretical development, they necessarily involve themselves in a social dynamic (one that includes a desire for an objective mathematical description of the universe).

There's no "peer pressure". Refereeing does not mean one has to make sure the report is valid - simply that it was legitimately done, does not contain obvious mistakes, presented in a clear and full manner so that anyone wishing to reproduce is can, and that it has address all the relevant and possibily contradicting reports elsewhere. That's all.

I did not mean to denigrate peer review or the fine people that engage in it. But can we dismiss theories simply because they do not find themselves in peer review journals? Or, in other words, can we dismiss theories simply because other people have dismissed them?

Yes, because all you need to do is show me what I've requested to disprove my claim. For the past 15 years since I first put that forward, no one has managed to show me even ONE! It is very seldom there is something absolute in physics. But this appears to be one. And take note, I didn't just ask for "theories". I asked for EVERYTHING in physics within the past 100 years. Remember that a significant part of physics is experimental discovery.

Is the "objectiveness" of a theory intimately entwined with its degree of social acceptability?

Maybe social acceptability determines what we mean by "objectiveness," and not the other way around as we currently assume? I cannot pretend to know the answer.

It is not acceptable to combine "F=ma" and "E=mc^2." The differences in the equations are semiotic.
Er.. I'm sorry, but you see only "SEMIOTIC" difference between the two, with zero regards as to how each one was derived and defined?

No, it is not acceptable to "combine" the two. And this has nothing to do with "social acceptability".

The symbols in one are interpreted differently than in the other, even though they can be calculated using the same mathematical rules. But, then, they both make efficient use of space, and even more efficient use of calculation. Both can be simply applied, without the use of a high amount of resources, which are scarce.
Even though they're incompatible with each other, we choose to keep them both.

Huh?!

Sorry, I am after all just a frustrated student. o:)

I'm sorry for you too.

Zz.
 
  • #43
Thanks again.

Looks like I'm just going to have to become a physicist.
 
Last edited:
  • #44
Telos said:
Non-profit organizations are subjected to the same kind of analysis from economists as for-profit organizations. Basically, the principle is "choice due to scarcity." For example, physicists have scarce (read "finite") resources and cannot engage in every theory or proposal that exists in the marketplace of ideas. No matter the motive, ideas will always cost time and money (read "resources"). So decisions must be made on which ideas will be examined.

This is more a factor when it comes to obtaining funding for research, not an issue when it comes time for publication. Some high impact journals (Science, for example) will be selective about what manuscripts get sent out for full review, but most journals send every manuscript out to reviewers. The reviewers do not need to decide anything about whether the journal has room for all the articles, what other articles will be published in the same issue, or anything else that may be economically driven. They simply evaluate the merit of the work in terms of the quality of science and appropriateness of methods, novelty (a really novel idea that is addressed well actually has a better chance of getting published in a high impact journal than something that just puts a new twist on an old idea, or that only adds a small amount of information), and how thoroughly existing literature has been accounted for in the discussion.

There most certainly cannot be impartiality because we must be partial to handful of ideas - because we cannot explore them all at once. Resources are scarce. We cannot have everything all at once. We have to make a decision.

The decision stage is in whether to do the research or not. If the research is done and the paper is written, and if it is written well (see my above comments), there will be a journal somewhere for it. You'd be amazed at the variety of journals available for publication. There are journals that are very specialized and only accept papers that fit within a very small niche area of research, and others that are very general, some that a huge volume of submissions and become very selective that only the most novel, highest impact work gets accepted, while others will take almost anything as long as it doesn't have any methodological flaws.

I didn't mean to ask about "economic pressure," (and to be fair I didn't actually say that!) but to ask how close does "peer review" come to "peer pressure?"
This is the reason peer review is done anonymously. The authors are never informed who their reviewers are. This gives the reviewer the leeway to be completely candid in their review without fear of repercussions from the author. Manuscripts are also not reviewed by just a single person, but by two or three reviewers. Editors also can request more reviewers at their discretion if there is a large discrepancy among the opinions of the initial reviewers.

I did not mean to denigrate peer review or the fine people that engage in it. But can we dismiss theories simply because they do not find themselves in peer review journals? Or, in other words, can we dismiss theories simply because other people have dismissed them?

Yes and no. One can even dismiss a theory that has been peer reviewed. Afterall, you publish taking into account all of the information that is available to you at the time you write and submit your publication and provide your best interpretation at that time. It is possible that after publication, new information becomes available that disproves your theory, rendering even a peer-reviewed publication wrong. If something does not get accepted for publication in any peer-reviewed journal, it typically means there is a major flaw that the reviewers have identified. Even in the true sense of theory development (not the PF definition), a theory that is unpublished is still a work in progress. It may still be untrue, and it would still lack sufficient evidence to be publishable. Once sufficient evidence is obtained to support it, it can be published. No person in their right mind would discuss such a theory on an open forum such as this lest someone in a bigger and better funded lab scoop the project and beat you to the publication. Scientists do share these ideas with each other at this early stage, but it is done in scientific meetings accompanied by published abstracts that offer some protection that the original idea is yours.

What does that say about our approach to theory development and acceptance? Why do we appear to have a tendency to accept theories of big and small that directly oppose one another?

I don't understand what you're asking here. Do you really mean acceptance or proposal of theories? When there are gaps in our knowledge of something, until those gaps are filled, sometimes seemingly opposing theories can both explain the data currently available. It doesn't mean either theory is accepted, but that controversy is present about which theory is correct. Scientists love controversy, it spices up life and gives us something to argue about, and arguing is what we do best. :smile: The challenge then becomes testing both theories and pitting them against one another to find out which one is correct and which gets tossed out, or perhaps both get tossed out. Acknowledging the limitations of a theory is quite different from hatching up an entirely unfounded theory because it sounds good to the untrained.

Now, if you come up with a new theory that really challenges a currently accepted theory, you may need to jump through a number of extra hoops to gain acceptance, but if it is sound and holds up to critique, eventually it will get published and gain acceptance. The type of posts we have in theory development on PF are not those types of theories. They have glaring omissions, are unsubstantiated by experimental evidence, and often use little more than textbook physics or math as background (you're not going to develop the TOE based on nothing more than introductory textbook physics; a single 1000 page text is not a substitute for a library full of published works).
 
  • #45
If you want to read a well written description of the trials and tribulations of the development of a non standard theory take a look at Faster then the Speed of Light by Joao Magueijo
 
  • #46
ZapperZ said:
Sure. Here they are:

1. All of Einstein's 1905 papers
2. BCS Theory
3. All of the PRL papers listed in the PRL Top 10 citations (see my Journal entry on all of them)
4. The high-Tc discovery of Bednorz and Muller + the MgB2 discovery by Akimitsu and Co.
5. Fractional quantum hall effect
6. All of the papers listed in http://fangio.magnet.fsu.edu/~vlad/pr100/100yrs/html/chap14_toc.htm
7. etc.

Zz.
Interesting, nice list. Don't think 1905 is within 100 years though :smile:

All in all, I think this site is nicely managed.
Most reasonable questions and discussions stay in the main lines until hopelesly lost.

However, my biggest gripe about science is that it is very difficult (or impossible) to find information on ideas that didn't quite work out. Or how they fail.
I think the TD forum can fill a void in this regard.

So, my personal opinion.
The TD forum can be useful learning tool, if properly managed.
Particularly if the flames are kept to a minimum. :smile:

ZapperZ said:
All you need to do is, as I have repeatedly mentioned on here and elsewhere, is to show an example from within the past 100 years, of an idea that never appeared in a peer-reviewed journal that has made a significant advancement in the body of knowledge of physics.
Ok, I'm no science history buff, but...

How about all the cranks who built their own transistors prior to 1948.

Also Chester Carlson probably deserves mention for his photoelectric work.
He couldn't sell his crank idea until he made a working model in his basement.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
  • #47
NoTime said:
Interesting, nice list. Don't think 1905 is within 100 years though :smile:

All in all, I think this site is nicely managed.
Most reasonable questions and discussions stay in the main lines until hopelesly lost.

However, my biggest gripe about science is that it is very difficult (or impossible) to find information on ideas that didn't quite work out. Or how they fail.
I think the TD forum can fill a void in this regard.

Er... if you want science ideas that failed, look in any physics journal! Or may I recommend you read Bob Park's book "Voodoo Science". He explored several physics ideas that didn't make it. I wouldn't call the garbage you get in TD as "science".

Ok, I'm no science history buff, but...

How about all the cranks who built their own transistors prior to 1948.

Whoa! You mean people were already making transistors before Bardeen, Brittain, and Shockley invented it? What a travesty! You need to report this to the Nobel prize committee immediately so that we can yank away the imposters' Nobel prizes!

Also Chester Carlson probably deserves mention for his photoelectric work.
He couldn't sell his crank idea until he made a working model in his basement.

Er... who? What kind of "photelectric work" did he exactly do? The photoelectric effect was well-known well before the 1900's and became a thorn in the side of classical physics. So if you're claiming that 1905 is way outside my 100 year span...

Zz.
 
  • #48
ZapperZ said:
NoTime said:
Also Chester Carlson probably deserves mention for his photoelectric work.
He couldn't sell his crank idea until he made a working model in his basement.
Er... who? What kind of "photelectric work" did he exactly do?

Carlson invented the photocopier, which of course finally ended up at Xerox. An important invention, to be sure, but not fundamental science like we're discussing here. I don't think any new physical principles were involved.

I remember his name mainly because I'm a stamp collector, and the U.S. issued a postage stamp honoring Carlson some years ago. When the stamp was announced, there was quite a bit of head-scratching. "Chester who?" :bugeye:

Remember Rutherford's remark about physics? Something like "All science is really physics; the rest is just stamp collecting." I belong to both APS's (American Physical Society and American Philatelic Society) so I guess I can claim to know everything! :smile:
 
  • #49
jtbell said:
Carlson invented the photocopier, which of course finally ended up at Xerox. An important invention, to be sure, but not fundamental science like we're discussing here. I don't think any new physical principles were involved.

I remember his name mainly because I'm a stamp collector, and the U.S. issued a postage stamp honoring Carlson some years ago. When the stamp was announced, there was quite a bit of head-scratching. "Chester who?" :bugeye:

Remember Rutherford's remark about physics? Something like "All science is really physics; the rest is just stamp collecting." I belong to both APS's (American Physical Society and American Philatelic Society) so I guess I can claim to know everything! :smile:

That would explain why the name isn't familiar to me. :)

I wish people would restrict themselves to the confines of my challenge. Last time I posed that elsewhere, I get examples from biology and medicine, etc.

BTW, I think Rutherfords quote goes more along the lines of "All science is either physics or stamp-collecting". But don't quote me on that! :)

Zz.
 
  • #50
No offense,but it would be nice,if people were to remember quotes in their original form.

<<All science is either physics or stamp collecting>>
Ernest Rutherford, in J. B. Birks "Rutherford at Manchester" (1962)
British chemist & physicist (1871 - 1937)


Daniel.
 

Similar threads

Back
Top