Is mass conserved by mathematical identity?

Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the conservation of mass in the context of various mathematical frameworks, particularly within electromagnetism and general relativity. Participants explore the implications of different formalisms, gauge invariance, and the role of tensors and tensor densities in defining mass conservation.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants discuss the conservation of charge and mass through the use of differential forms and their properties, such as the closed nature of exact forms.
  • Others mention that local conservation laws arise from gauge invariance and coordinate transformations, referencing the conservation of current and stress-energy tensors.
  • There is a suggestion that different formalisms, including tensor densities, could yield globally true statements in smooth manifolds, though this raises questions about the definition of mass and energy in general relativity.
  • One participant argues that mass in gravity plays a passive role, contrasting it with the active role of sources in electromagnetism.
  • Concerns are raised about the difficulty of defining global concepts like mass and energy due to the properties of rank-2 tensors in curved spacetime.
  • Another participant proposes using parallel arguments to electric current density to approach the problem of mass conservation, suggesting that if a certain form is exact, it leads to conservation expressions.
  • There is a challenge regarding the idea of replacing tensors with tensor densities, questioning the implications for covariant conservation.
  • One participant expresses interest in generally covariant expressions that do not rely on connections, indicating a focus on skew symmetric tensor densities.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express a range of views on the conservation of mass, with no clear consensus on the best approach or formalism to use. Disagreements arise regarding the role of tensors versus tensor densities and the implications for mass conservation in different contexts.

Contextual Notes

Limitations include the dependence on specific mathematical frameworks and the unresolved nature of how mass is defined in relation to tensors and tensor densities in curved spacetime.

Phrak
Messages
4,266
Reaction score
7
In electromagnetism J denotes the oriented charge-current density, J=d*F.

Conservation of charge immediately follows. J=d2*F=0(identically). All exact forms are closed.

We can identify scalar mass as the norm of the one-form, μ=(E/c2,-p/c).

*μ is then spatial mass density. Like charge-current density, it is an oriented 3-form.

Is there anything that tells us that d*μ=0, or that *μ is exact?
 
Last edited:
Physics news on Phys.org
Jμ ≡ δL/δAμ is locally conserved due to gauge invariance. Aμ → Aμ + λ implies Jμ;μ ≡ 0.

Tμν ≡ δL/δgμν is locally conserved due to invariance under coordinate transformations. gμν → gμν + ξμ;ν + ξν;μ implies Tμν ≡ 0.
 
In quantum mechanics, mass is conserved due to a U(1)-symmetry; algebraically, the Casimir which plays the role of mass in the Bargmann group is a central extension.
 
Phrak said:
Yes, well, there is more than one formalism. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maxwell's_equations#Differential_geometric_formulations

As I understand it, replacing forms with their tensor density equivalents will obtain globally true statements on smooth manifolds.
The problem is that the rank-2 tensor T does not allow for a well-defined volume integral in general cases; that's why global concepts like "mass" and "energy" are notorious difficult in GR.
 
An isolated particle lives on a one-diimensional submanifold so forms aren't that interesting; there are only one-forms which are dual to functions.

The pushforward of the metric onto the worldline is just [itex]-d\tau^2[/itex], where [itex]\tau[/itex] is the proper time (here I use the 'mostly +' signature). This is the definition of proper time. If the mass m is regarded as a scalar on the worldline, then its hodge dual *m is the four-momentum form p. By raising the index and pulling back to a vector on the spacetime manifold, we get the ordinary four-momentum vector, defined on the worldline. I guess we then might have something to do with the four-force? If we lower the index, push forward onto the worldline and take the dual I think we should get g(F,U) where F is the four-force and U the four-velocity vectors, and g the metric on the spacetime manifold. But this looks like it'll be the wrong way round to me...
 
Last edited:
On reflection, my input above is a bit pointless. If we're talking about gravity, the mass there plays an entirely passive role so isn't really analogous to the source in any way.

Here's a better answer: in gravity, the analogous quantity to the source J is the stress energy tensor T. Einstein's equations are [itex]G=8\pi T[/itex]. Then T is identically conserved by the Bianchi identities.
 
Last edited:
tom.stoer said:
The problem is that the rank-2 tensor T does not allow for a well-defined volume integral in general cases; that's why global concepts like "mass" and "energy" are notorious difficult in GR.

Yes, this is why I think dwelling on the stress energy tensor is the wrong approach.

My naive approach is to use parallel arguments to the electric current density where tensors should really be substituted with tensor densities in a curved spacetime, though I didn't think it was necessary to say so at the time.

If *μ is exact this leads automatically to a conservation expression.

Say we have a primative 1-form field, α, and β=dα and *μ=dβ, where μ is as given in the OP. This is what I was attempting to illustrate for the most part, except that perhaps alpha is not necessary but beta is out primative field that is not the exact form of anything.
 
Last edited:
I don't understand; you want to replace tensors with " tensor densities in a curved spacetime". What do you mean? Scaling T with some function of g? But then this new "densitized" object is no longer covariantly conserved.
 
  • #10
That's OK, tom.stoer. What I am interested in are cannonically generally covariant expressions (connection free). In this restricted study T doesn't fit, but skew symmetric tensor densities with lower indeces, such as the 3-form of momentum, do.

henry_m gave me a couple ideas. Thanks, henry.
 

Similar threads

  • · Replies 0 ·
Replies
0
Views
2K
  • · Replies 9 ·
Replies
9
Views
1K
  • · Replies 7 ·
Replies
7
Views
2K
  • · Replies 0 ·
Replies
0
Views
1K
  • · Replies 30 ·
2
Replies
30
Views
5K
  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
3K
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
2K
  • · Replies 33 ·
2
Replies
33
Views
4K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
2K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
1K