Is mathematics a young man's game?

[Functor97]

Recently I have been feeling fairly depressed about my future in the mathematical sciences. I am a second year undergraduate studying mathematics and physics (double major), what is more, I am almost 21. In hindsight I wasted a year traveling with friends after high school, and whilst I enjoyed myself I think I should have gone straight to college. I am still stuck taking undergraduate courses, whilst many people my age are working exclusively on graduate courses. My grades are good, but none of my professors praise me, as other future mathematicians seem to be praised. Nor can I create ingenious new insights or re discover whole areas of mathematics. I often forget steps in proofs I have read, and am forced to go back to the books to read them again. I envy my engineering friends who can go out and relax, while I worry about my decaying grey matter, but I cannot give up on mathematics and physics which I see as humanities greatest intellectual mechanism for understanding.

I used to think myself quite intelligent, but now I see that I was fooling myself. I was never a prodigy like Terry Tao, Noam Elkies or Charles Fefferman, nor did I succeed at mathematical Olympiads before the age of 18 like most talented mathematicians seem to.

Many great mathematicians finished their PhDs by my current age, and I have read quite often that if you have not made a great idea by 30, you never will. I have heard countless amazing tales of the exploits of mathematicians my age such as John Nash, working in areas I do not even fully understand yet.

I love mathematics, but I am beginning to doubt this is enough. I can't think of being anything else, but I am feeling quite low about any semblance of mathematical talent I have. I doubt I can even make it into a decent graduate school, or if I do, that I will be laughed out of the faculty by teenagers half my age who can master my area in half the time.
I am aware that I sound like I am feeling sorry for myself, but I really am at a loss at what to do with myself.

 

[mathwonk]

see a psychiatrist. Any intelligent young person of age 21, with good success in school who is depressed because he feels he may not be a fields medalist latter on, needs to get a grip. We are not professional psychiatrists here, we are math advisors.

 

[J-ho]

You're 21 bro..lol

 

[Chunkysalsa]

Seriously? 21 makes you too old?

For the record, I'm 21 (literally just turned that today) and am a junior in college. I'm also one of the younger members of my class since I'm a straight from high school student. Many people are much older (some quite gray). Though I experience the older population more in my engineering courses, but my math courses average around 20-24 probably (I'm a dual EE/math).

Not everyone can be a prodigy. You listed a handful of extremely talented people but neglected all the many successful mathematicians that are not super geniuses.

So you are perfectly fine, infact I'd say you are moreso. Add ten years to your age and I still wouldn't think anything of it.

 

[Functor97]

see a psychiatrist. Any intelligent young person of age 21, with good success in school who is depressed because he feels he may not be a fields medalist latter on, needs to get a grip. We are not professional psychiatrists here, we are math advisors.

Mathwonk it is not so much a fields medal I want, I simply want to contribute at an international level. It is the fact that no matter how much I try, I will probably never access the higher levels of mathematics which these professionals are capable of. It is not some damn bit of metal alloy I want, its knowledge and it seems that my mind has only a very limited time frame to attain said knowledge. Almost all mathematicians (field medalists or not) seem to make their major contributions before 40, and I fear I won't even begin to understand the fields that interest me before that age.

 

[Chunkysalsa]

40 is almost twice your age. Theres plenty that could happen between now and then, don't worry too much about it or you definitely won't accomplish anything

 

[Functor97]

40 is almost twice your age. Theres plenty that could happen between now and then, don't worry too much about it or you definitely won't accomplish anything

Yes, I realize that. I try and put it out of my mind, and it works, but then when i start reading the background and lives of the mathematicians whose work I am reading i get confronted with the same ideal story: Prodigy or early promise, PhD (or equivalent) by 22, world renown by 30.

 

[Mmm_Pasta]

You're only a second-year undergraduate. There is still *A LOT* to learn about math and/or physics. You don't need to be famous or well known to contribute. Knowledge is cumulative from many years of work. Your ideas can be failures and sometimes they work. Both can help others come up with other insights as well. To me it sounds like you are afraid of failure and just want success to come at you right away.

 

[Vanadium 50]

Again, I think mathwonk's advice is right. If you're 21, successful in school, and depressed that you won't be able to "contribute at an international level", you should be discussing this with a psychiatrist, not us.

 

[Functor97]

You're only a second-year undergraduate. There is still *A LOT* to learn about math and/or physics. You don't need to be famous or well known to contribute. Knowledge is cumulative from many years of work. Your ideas can be failures and sometimes they work. Both can help others come up with other insights as well. To me it sounds like you are afraid of failure and just want success to come at you right away.

Its the fact that i have so much to learn which troubles me.

 

[Dembadon]

...

I love mathematics, but I am beginning to doubt this is enough. I can't think of being anything else, but I am feeling quite low about any semblance of mathematical talent I have. I doubt I can even make it into a decent graduate school, or if I do, that I will be laughed out of the faculty by teenagers half my age who can master my area in half the time.
I am aware that I sound like I am feeling sorry for myself, but I really am at a loss at what to do with myself.

Actually, it sounds to me like you don't like mathematics as much as you say you do. It seems like you desire recognition more than learning mathematics. As others have mentioned, this is a psychological issue. If you really love mathematics, you'll study it for the rest of your life without worrying about whether you are internationally recognized.

 

[nickadams]

What scares me about pursuing a career in high level math is that it can take 10+ years before one finds out that they are not smart enough for that path. So I work for 4 years of undergrad and if (big if) I'm fortunate enough to get into grad school I will work for 5-8 more years and if (massive if) I pass my quals, classes, dissertation etc. then I could come out with a PhD. And then at that point there is a good chance I will not make the next cut of getting a postdoc position.

If I find out I am not smart enough to get into grad school, where do I go from there? It will mean I have a low GPA and a pure math degree (or worse: no degree)...

If I find out I am not smart enough to pass the qual exams or grad classes, where do I go from there? PhD dropout with a not very marketable degree...

If I find out I am not smart or devoted enough to finish a dissertation, where do I go from there? ABD...

If I find out I am not smart enough to get a postdoc, what then?
I am currently doing engineering and certainly doing well enough to get a job in this field, but the odds of succeeding in the field of pure math are far lower and trying to find out if I have what it takes has a very high chance of leading to a low GPA, poor job prospects, and debt.

 

[Functor97]

Actually, it sounds to me like you don't like mathematics as much as you say you do. It seems like you desire recognition more than learning mathematics. As others have mentioned, this is a psychological issue. If you really love mathematics, you'll study it for the rest of your life without worrying about whether you are internationally recognized.

I can assure you i do love mathematics. Doesn't everyone want recognition for doing what they love?

 

[Dembadon]

I can assure you i do love mathematics. Doesn't everyone want recognition for doing what they love?

I'm not following your reasoning. If lack of recognition is making you question your decision to pursue mathematics, which can you say you love more?

 

[Nano-Passion]

Mathwonk, a psychiatrist is someone who has legal rights to hand out pills and medicine to the mentally ill <-- Pretty awkward definition but it will do. That is probably a mistake, I wouldn't want Functor to think you are calling him mentally insane ahah. Psychologist is the proper word.

Functor, you associate your self worth with success at mathematics.. this is very unfortunate. There is so much more beauty to the world. You have a mentality of all or nothing. This is a very destructive train of thought.

I'm not following your reasoning. If you are ready to give up mathematics for lack of recognition, which can you say you love more?

I second this.

 

[Deveno]

i think there are two related issues, here:

a) a desire for recognition. i think you need to realize that this is intimately bound up with your self-image. while it is somewhat humbling to realize that you may not be destined to be a leader in your chosen field, it is something that most people have to deal with, at some point in their lives. i know of perhaps less than 50 living mathematicians whose names i would recognize. certainly there are many, many more competent (perhaps even brilliant) mathematicians i will never know anything about. most of your instructors probably fall into that category, and yet...they persist in imparting the knowledge of their life's study to you. get a grip, you will never live anyone else's life, enjoy your own.

b) a desire to contribute. this is by far the easier issue to address. research topics off the beaten path. mathematics is a BIG world, and we haven't had the time to explore it all. you won't have time, either. but by the time you are in graduate school, you'll certainly have a big enough tool-kit to start exploring on your own. find something that interests you, spend some time getting to know unfamiliar territory. trust me when i say that fame and glory are nothing compared to the simple joy of discovery. and you can have that, no problem.

 

[Functor97]

I'm not following your reasoning. If lack of recognition is making you question your decision to pursue mathematics, which can you say you love more?

I would still pursue my dreams and study mathematics, i would simply feel like i was missing out on something more. Like i said, it is not so much recognition as the ability to understand at the highest levels which i desire.

 

[sutupidmath]

I would still pursue my dreams and study mathematics, i would simply feel like i was missing out on something more. Like i said, it is not so much recognition as the ability to understand at the highest levels which i desire.

I do not have much to add, other than the fact that not too long ago (about 3-4 years) I was in a similar position as yourself. During high school I was mislead (mainly by my math professors) to think of myself as a person with high talent in mathematics. So, at that time I always pictured myself as a person who would one day make some breakthroughs in mathematics. Later on, I discovered the harsh truth, that this is very unlikely to happen (while not impossible, never say never ;) ). For a while I started doubting myself to a point where I even considered not pursuing a degree in mathematics at all.

Fortunately, in the comming years I have come to love mathematics for its own sake, and while being internationally recognized for my work would most certainly bring home a great feeling, this is not the reason I study mathematics now.

Your work should be a natural result of your passion for mathematics, not the other way around. That is, you should not be driven to study mathematics by the idea that one day you will be internationally recognized as a great mathematician, on the contrary, studying mathematics should be only a result of your passion and love for it, and as I said, becoming internationally recognized, should merely come as a natural consequence of your work.

 

[chiro]

I can assure you i do love mathematics. Doesn't everyone want recognition for doing what they love?

The truth is that most people don't get recognition for what they do.

Teachers in high schools put up with so much crap just to get to that one student that gives a stuff and everyone else thinks their job is easy and that they have too many holidays.

Same goes with many professions.

My advice is to give up the idea that you will get a lot of recognitio, because most people don't get it even if they really deserve it. Many will get it after they have died but usually not before.

You'll be a lot happier if you find something you enjoy and like using to help other people: the rewards will come usually from things that are un-announced.

 

[Functor97]

I do not have much to add, other than the fact that not too long ago (about 3-4 years) I was in a similar position as yourself. During high school I was mislead (mainly by my math professors) to think of myself as a person with high talent in mathematics. So, at that time I always pictured myself as a person who would one day make some breakthroughs in mathematics. Later on, I discovered the harsh truth, that this is very unlikely to happen (while not impossible, never say never ;) ). For a while I started doubting myself to a point where I even considered not pursuing a degree in mathematics at all.

Fortunately, in the comming years I have come to love mathematics for its own sake, and while being internationally recognized for my work would most certainly bring home a great feeling, this is not the reason I study mathematics now.

Your work should be a natural result of your passion for mathematics, not the other way around. That is, you should not be driven to study mathematics by the idea that one day you will be internationally recognized as a great mathematician, on the contrary, studying mathematics should be only a result of your passion and love for it, and as I said, becoming internationally recognized, should merely come as a natural consequence of your work.

Thank you for the reply. You and Deveno are of course correct, it is the joy of discovery that i should strive to achieve.

 

[Functor97]

The truth is that most people don't get recognition for what they do.

Teachers in high schools put up with so much crap just to get to that one student that gives a stuff and everyone else thinks their job is easy and that they have too many holidays.

Same goes with many professions.

My advice is to give up the idea that you will get a lot of recognitio, because most people don't get it even if they really deserve it. Many will get it after they have died but usually not before.

You'll be a lot happier if you find something you enjoy and like using to help other people: the rewards will come usually from things that are un-announced.

Thank you for the advice Chiro, this has put my childish beliefs in perspective.

 

[micromass]

This sounds appropriate:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f61KMw5zVhg

 

[Dembadon]

I would still pursue my dreams and study mathematics, i would simply feel like i was missing out on something more. Like i said, it is not so much recognition as the ability to understand at the highest levels which i desire.

I'm not sure you're in a position to know what you'll be able to understand 10 years from now. Worrying about it certainly won't improve your mathematical abilities.

Again, I think your issue is emotional. It will be much easier to address that via a counselor than by attaining the ridiculously high expectation you've set for yourself. I really wish you the best and hope you find what you're looking for.

 

[Pengwuino]

I can assure you i do love mathematics. Doesn't everyone want recognition for doing what they love?

There's a difference between recognition and being known by every person in your field for centuries after your death. Why do you even care? You won't be alive to enjoy such recognition most likely even if you were to achieve it.

Scientists get recognition on a regular basis, through journal citations, conferences, talks, etc. They can even write texts that will be used for generations to come and achieve recognition that way.

Stop trying to live for other people, because that's essentially what you're doing.

 

[Functor97]

I'm not sure you're in a position to know what you'll be able to understand 10 years from now. Worrying about it certainly won't improve your mathematical abilities.

Again, I think your issue is emotional. It will be much easier to address that via a counselor than by attaining the ridiculously high expectation you've set for yourself. I really wish you the best and hope you find what you're looking for.

Yes i acknowledge that you are probably correct. I do not see how a counselor could aid me in this, so i shall simply try and take the advice given here and focus on the math.

 

[Kevin_Axion]

You'll never make anything of yourself in either mathematics or physics.

What do you want to hear? Do you want everyone on this forum to tell you that you'll do well while you continue to doubt yourself? You're your own problem and saying you'll never make it is only infringing on something you can't change. If you want to do something great, start working on it now and stop concentrating on useless ideas that depress you and only hinder your progress which is what you're worrying about in the first place, a self-perpetuating process. I think you can see the illogical consequence in what you're doing, now just make it actionable.

EDIT: I'm not trying to be harsh but seriously, your entire depression is just contradicting exactly what is making you depressed and that will only continue.

 

[Dembadon]

Yes i acknowledge that you are probably correct. I do not see how a counselor could aid me in this, so i shall simply try and take the advice given here and focus on the math.

Counseling can help identify and correct destructive mindsets. If you think about it, you've received some counseling in this thread. It has been of some aid, no?

 

[Functor97]

You'll never make anything of yourself in either mathematics or physics.

What do you want to hear? Do you want everyone on this forum to tell you that you'll do well while you continue to doubt yourself? You're your own problem and saying you'll never make it is only infringing on something you can't change. If you want to do something great, start working on it now and stop concentrating on useless ideas that depress you and only hinder your progress which is what you're worrying about in the first place, a self-perpetuating process. I think you can see the illogical consequence in what you're doing, now just make it actionable.

EDIT: I'm not trying to be harsh but seriously, your entire depression is just contradicting exactly what is making you depressed and that will only continue.

No, i only wanted to hear people's own stance or experience in regard to these issues. You are a high school student Kevin, i would prefer advice from those who have at least started college in the field.

 

[micromass]

No, i only wanted to hear people's own stance or experience in regard to these issues. You are a high school student Kevin, i would prefer advice from those who have at least started college in the field.

So you think that high school students don't have the experiences you have?? Your problem is an emotional one, I think Kevin can understand quite well what you're dealing with.

 

[Vanadium 50]

What scares me about pursuing a career in high level math is that it can take 10+ years before one finds out that they are not smart enough for that path.

Why is this different? I could say the same thing about professional athletes, musicians, about CEO's, politicians, etc.

 

[Kevin_Axion]

No, i only wanted to hear people's own stance or experience in regard to these issues. You are a high school student Kevin, i would prefer advice from those who have at least started college in the field.

Yea you're right. I think what you just said was a genetic fallacy, but sure. My point clearly doesn't stand because I'm a high school student. I came here to help you not to try and make you feel bad. If you want to ridicule my statement with something as absurd as being a high school student then I'm fine with that, but you really haven't shown me anything against what my statement says.

 

[Pengwuino]

No, i only wanted to hear people's own stance or experience in regard to these issues. You are a high school student Kevin, i would prefer advice from those who have at least started college in the field.

It's irrelevant what someones experience is. Your issue is not what age you need to be to be a great, world-renown mathematician. Your issue, clearly, is far worse; you have a psychological issue that is hindering your life. Remember, if you obsess over 1 thing, all you'll ever be good at is obsessing over that 1 thing. So if you obsess over doing mathematics, you'll become good at doing mathematics. However, if you obsess over whether or not you're too old to be great, all you'll ever be good at is obsessing over whether or not you're too old to be great. Take a guess at which one is going to get your name in textbooks?

 

[Functor97]

Yea you're right. I think what you just said was a genetic fallacy, but sure. My point clearly doesn't stand because I'm a high school student. I came here to help you not to try and make you feel bad. If you want to ridicule my statement with something as absurd as being a high school student then I'm fine with that, but you really haven't shown me anything against what my statement says.

My original question was expressed towards those within the mathematical community, i am sorry if i did not make this explicit enough. I do not like the condescending tone of your post "you will never make anything of yourself..." I could direct that right back towards you. I simply do not think you are in a position to convey experiences you have never had, i mean how is a high school student of modest ability supposed to advise others on what makes a mathematician?

 

[Kevin_Axion]

My original question was expressed towards those within the mathematical community, i am sorry if i did not make this explicit enough. I do not like the condescending tone of your post "you will never make anything of yourself..." I could direct that right back towards you. I simply do not think you are in a position to convey experiences you have never had, i mean how is a high school student of modest ability supposed to advise others on what makes a mathematician?

I wasn't being condescending, I was being sarcastic. What I mean is if I say that or if anyone says that it isn't going to make any difference because in the end you are the person that you have to face and get over.

 

[Functor97]

I wasn't being condescending, I was being sarcastic. What I mean is if I say that or if anyone says that it isn't going to make any difference because in the end you are the person that you have to face and get over.

I appreciate you trying to help, i just think you went about it in the wrong manner.

 

[micromass]

I appreciate you trying to help, i just think you went about it in the wrong manner.

On the contrary, kevin's advice is very good. Don't disregard his advice because of his age!

 

[nickadams]

Why is this different? I could say the same thing about professional athletes, musicians, about CEO's, politicians, etc.

So is pursuing a PhD in math to become a postdoc analogous to playing basketball 6 hours a day for ten years in hopes of going to the NBA? Or practicing guitar 6 hours a day from age 18-28 to become a musician?

 

[PAllen]

I would just throw out a clear counter-example to such hysteria. At 21, Edward Witten was working for George McGovern, having completed a history BA. He then studied some economics before switching to Physics and math. What did he end up with*?

I am not suggesting anyone can be Witten, just that at 21 you have no idea what you might still be able to do.


*Fields Medal, in case you didn't know.

 

[Kevin_Axion]

I would just throw out a clear counter-example to such hysteria. At 21, Edward Witten was working for George McGovern, having completed a history BA. He then studied some economics before switching to Physics and math. What did he end up with*?

I am not suggesting anyone can be Witten, just that at 21 you have no idea what you might still be able to do.*Fields Medal, in case you didn't know.

Awesome example! I was going to mention this but Ed Witten is very particular case, I mean, look at his forehead!

For those inquiring about said forehead: http://www.iopblog.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/ed_witten.jpg

 

[nucl34rgg]

Recently I have been feeling fairly depressed about my future in the mathematical sciences. I am a second year undergraduate studying mathematics and physics (double major), what is more, I am almost 21. In hindsight I wasted a year traveling with friends after high school, and whilst I enjoyed myself I think I should have gone straight to college. I am still stuck taking undergraduate courses, whilst many people my age are working exclusively on graduate courses. My grades are good, but none of my professors praise me, as other future mathematicians seem to be praised. Nor can I create ingenious new insights or re discover whole areas of mathematics. I often forget steps in proofs I have read, and am forced to go back to the books to read them again. I envy my engineering friends who can go out and relax, while I worry about my decaying grey matter, but I cannot give up on mathematics and physics which I see as humanities greatest intellectual mechanism for understanding.

I used to think myself quite intelligent, but now I see that I was fooling myself. I was never a prodigy like Terry Tao, Noam Elkies or Charles Fefferman, nor did I succeed at mathematical Olympiads before the age of 18 like most talented mathematicians seem to.

Many great mathematicians finished their PhDs by my current age, and I have read quite often that if you have not made a great idea by 30, you never will. I have heard countless amazing tales of the exploits of mathematicians my age such as John Nash, working in areas I do not even fully understand yet.

I love mathematics, but I am beginning to doubt this is enough. I can't think of being anything else, but I am feeling quite low about any semblance of mathematical talent I have. I doubt I can even make it into a decent graduate school, or if I do, that I will be laughed out of the faculty by teenagers half my age who can master my area in half the time.
I am aware that I sound like I am feeling sorry for myself, but I really am at a loss at what to do with myself.

"Do not worry about your difficulties in Mathematics. I can assure you mine are still greater." -Albert Einstein

"I do not know what I may appear to the world, but to myself I seem to have been only like a boy playing on the sea-shore, and diverting myself in now and then finding a smoother pebble or a prettier shell than ordinary, whilst the great ocean of truth lay all undiscovered before me. " -Isaac Newton

No matter what natural talent the greats had, they still ran into a wall and struggled. Nobody is perfect. You probably aren't the next Hilbert, but that doesn't mean you can't make a contribution. Imagine if you had been a great talented mathematical prodigy. You know what you'd be worried about right now? You'd be worried that your life's work would never uncover some deep, all important, extremely abstract concept that you felt you were aimlessly groping towards in the dark. At least when you get stuck on a proof, you can ask someone who knows more. Imagine being at the top of the pyramid. Who do they turn to for help? Most practicing mathematicians are nowhere near the level of the men you mentioned. They still make great contributions. They just had to struggle a bit more and stick with a new concept a bit longer to understand it.

 

[eddotman]

I'm not really a mathematician, but I think I have some experiences that I can share which may help.

I'm a little younger than you (19), and I can say with confidence that my talents and abilities, compared to "history's greatest," is pretty damn mediocre. And that's nothing to be ashamed of or worried about, because the reality is, even those "child prodigies" face just the same struggles that you do.

I'm not just wildly suggesting this, either. When I was younger, I had a chance to go to some national/international science fairs. I can tell you that these events are littered with the kind of people that almost anyone feels inadequate when compared to - there were kids here who were on math olympiad teams while in middle school, or who had already filed patents or started companies with large VC funding.

But you know what? They face the same struggles that we all do. They get stressed from exams, they procrastinate and barely hand assignments in on time, they worry that they'll burn out or never become truly "great."

I don't think you should feel intimidated or discouraged by the accomplishments of others. We're all working towards the common goal of learning more about the universe, bit by bit, so maybe just think of it as having lots of really great colleagues.

 

[Functor97]

Awesome example! I was going to mention this but Ed Witten is very particular case, I mean, look at his forehead!

For those inquiring about said forehead: http://www.iopblog.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/ed_witten.jpg

haha large forehead size does not imply increased cerebral function. Or in Witten's case, cerebral dominance.

 

[DrummingAtom]

It's irrelevant what someones experience is. Your issue is not what age you need to be to be a great, world-renown mathematician. Your issue, clearly, is far worse; you have a psychological issue that is hindering your life. Remember, if you obsess over 1 thing, all you'll ever be good at is obsessing over that 1 thing. So if you obsess over doing mathematics, you'll become good at doing mathematics. However, if you obsess over whether or not you're too old to be great, all you'll ever be good at is obsessing over whether or not you're too old to be great. Take a guess at which one is going to get your name in textbooks?

100% agree with this. If you want something, go get it. Who gives a crap about age, ability, etc. Earning a prize seems like the wrong thing to focus on (at least to me) but if that's your motivating factor then use it to your advantage. Have a plan B if you don't succeed, why not just do it for the love?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a_yW3152Ffc&feature=related

 

[Kevin_Axion]

haha large forehead size does not imply increased cerebral function. Or in Witten's case, cerebral dominance.

I know :), or else blue whales would be ruling the Earth.

 

[bpatrick]

If math and physics is a "young man's game" I should just quit now ... considering I'm in my late 20s and going back to grad school.

I had a physical chemistry professor back in undergrad who was in his early 90s and still rode his bicycle to school every day and twice a week, he went to the university gym and did elliptical machines for an hour.

Assuming I could even achieve being in the field until I'm 75 (let alone my early 90s) and assuming I can get through my PhD by age 35 ... that gives me at least 40 solid years to contribute to academia in some way ... assuming I can actually land post-doc positions and keep research going.

I don't feel that I'm any slower than I was when I was a kid doing math ... and I even took 3-4 years off from doing any type of science back when I was a professional musician (after a graduate music degree).

I think it's just stress and looking at loads of other people that is getting to you. You can't really do that. I remember some of the best advice my trumpet professor gave me and that had to do with comparing yourself to the prodigy people out there ... it's a downward spiral. There was a kid who won the principal trumpet chair of the New York Phil a few years back (might have been 2006 or 2007) ... he was a sophomore or junior at Northwestern studying under the famous husband/wife trumpet professors there. Everybody in the orchestral trumpeting community was stunned (and some got kinda depressed) that some hot shot kid who couldn't even order himself a beer in this country won the most sought after position in the classical trumpeting world at the time. There were literally thousands of applicants who submitted CVs and taped auditions who were narrowed down to the top 150 that were invited to a 3 day long live audition phase ... hell half of those people had doctoral music degrees or were even professors at major music conservatories in the country ... but a 19 year old kid won the job ... why? because he had worked his butt off since he was 10 playing in the San Fransisco youth orchestra because he knew back then that trumpeting was what he wanted to do (and his parents obviously supported him, etc...), but most of us (classical trumpeters) started playing the instrument when we were 10-12, played sports, went to normal schools, etc... and didn't know that we were going to pursue music at a conservatory level (or professionally) until we were late teenagers.

All I'm saying is that guys like that get loads of attention ... it wouldn't have been a big deal if any of those other thousands of guys who were in their late 20s or early 30s would have won the gig, but since it was this kid who did it, well it was a big deal, but in reality, he had been playing just as long as anybody else and had been playing seriously (like 6+ hours a day of practice) for almost a decade, so when you look at it like that, it's no different than any of the older guys who just started serious musicianship when they went off to college.

Anyway, you can't compare yourself to other people really, just do what you do and that's that. If you love math and are doing well in it, you'll find a path that accommodates that (hopefully given the economy / academia). Eventually if you keep up solid work ethic and keep pushing yourself in the field, you'll have just as good a shot as anybody to succeed in the field. Recognition isn't everything either ... I'm sure I'd have a shot still at winning a Fields medal if I did nothing but math for the next 12 years of my life, but Debra would probably leave me, I'd become estranged from my relatives and friends, etc... it's all about balance and you'll find yours.

I'm certainly not motivated enough to ever be a famous scientist (remembered for years) but that's because I know what all I'd have to give up to achieve that ... which just isn't worth it for me ... I'll settle for just being "satisfactory" among other PhDs, hah.

 

[Sankaku]

I know the thread has moved on, but I wanted to address this:

Its the fact that i have so much to learn which troubles me.

This should be a source of inspiration and wonder, not distress. The field is so deep and broad that it has room for many minds to explore.

...

Just a note to people suggesting psychological help: The mathematics community has real issues about projecting the image that it is a young man's game. I mostly blame G.H. Hardy and the Fields committee. It is not unreasonable that a person hitting some natural self-doubt will inadvertently adopt this ghost from the past as their own.

 

[f95toli]

So is pursuing a PhD in math to become a postdoc analogous to playing basketball 6 hours a day for ten years in hopes of going to the NBA? Or practicing guitar 6 hours a day from age 18-28 to become a musician?

No, because with a PhD in math there are many alternative career paths; not only in academia but also in industry, finance etc.

Also, when you read about "great mathematicians", keep in mind that most of them were educated at a time when just about everyone got their degrees several years earlier than today ("regular" people finished school when they were14, university at say 18-19, and it took maybe two years to get a PhD); it not only depends on how smart you are but also the educational system.

 

[PieceOfPi]

Instead of visiting a psychologist, talk about this to members of Association of Women in Mathematics---I'm sure they will *fix* you up!

 

[epenguin]

Random thoughts.

I believe, whether you ever recognise it or not, the year you spent knocking around the world as opposed to being the tenured prodigy you aspire to be, will not have been wasted time.

(Actually, almost, it is only when you are young or retired you are allowed to waste time.)

I fully agree with Feynman on this. There are too many people who are outside Science, unable to contribute to it directly, who try to promote it setting up prizes etc.. Causes more distortion than anything; you cannot imagine the number of hangers-on there are who try to get in on the act. Starting from preening politicians who want to be seen bestowing and speechifying in the awards ceremonies and a zillion people who try to be invited to the parties. Who mostly understand little or nothing about the discoveries that are the pretext. A fairly revolting spectacle.

Scientific Academies like the NAS are at best a necessary evil, except that some of them are not even necessary.

Feynman did not mention that even the sound part, having achieved something, though better than not achieving it, and especially than someone else doing it or being recognised for it before you - a constant anxiety of scientists - even the feelings of satisfaction do not last long, at least with any intensity. Read Watson on his feelings after having published the double helix structure. Anti-climax. Or Dirac when Feynman enthused to him about how it must feel to have made his fantastic discoveries. 'It was a long time ago' was all he could respond. You soon have to move on to the next problem or issue. But the temporary high has hooked you, says Medawar.

 

[nickadams]

No, because with a PhD in math there are many alternative career paths; not only in academia but also in industry, finance etc.

What about those who find they are not smart enough to finish a bachelors in math or not smart enough to get into grad school (low GPA) or not smart enough to finish the PhD? I am afraid to risk so much to see if I have what it takes to get a math PhD. I wish they gave you a test when you are 18 that can determine if you have the potential to get a math PhD, because as it is now someone may take 3-8 years and thousands of dollars before they find out they don't have what it takes :(