Music Is Neil Young just a grumpy old musician?

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Neil Young has expressed strong criticism of digital music formats, particularly MP3, in a recent interview, arguing that they compromise sound quality compared to analog recordings. He believes that the younger generation lacks the experience to recognize this decline in audio fidelity, suggesting that they are being misled by the music industry. Young's perspective resonates with a broader concern among musicians about the degradation of their work due to technological advances in music distribution. He emphasizes the importance of analog sound, claiming that digital formats fail to capture the depth and richness of music. Despite the advancements in digital audio technology, Young argues that unless music is recorded in analog, even lossless formats like WAV and FLAC cannot fully replicate the original sound. This debate touches on a larger philosophical shift in the music industry, where convenience often trumps quality, leading to a culture that accepts lower fidelity as the norm. Young's views highlight a tension between nostalgia for traditional sound quality and the realities of modern music consumption.
  • #31
Tghu Verd said:
No worries, @Klystron. Sometimes I know I can't see the obvious, esp. with user interfaces! I'll take another look at the link, no doubt it's PEBKAC :wink:

I once worked for what would be commonly be called a "hard man". He was a COO who did not suffer fools - and he was bright and very quick with it, so he could spot them - and when it came to situations like my not finding the link button, he would spit out "PEBKAC", and most times be correct, even if he was a terrible bully with it: Problem exists between keyboard and chair! I learned a lot from him, but boy, did my stress levels drop when I left.
I prefer KISS acronym from (software) engineering: Keep It Simple, Simpleton!

IOW if one can link to posts in a thread, posts in other threads, plus content outside PF using the hyper-link symbol, then why not prefer it? Since other pointer methods exist, I imagine they provide advantages such as faster links or less storage. Good to have options.
 
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  • #32
Klystron said:
IOW if one can link to posts in a thread, posts in other threads, plus content outside PF using the hyper-link symbol, then why not prefer it?

I've dragged this thread off topic with my question, sorry, but the issue is that I can't see how to form the URL for the post number to enter into the hyperlink control. Hovering over the post number does not provide it, as the content is not active and I don't have the network icon that @BillTre referred to in post #22. It's not a big deal and does not degrade my PF experience, I just thought there might be a trick to it as I couldn't immediately see the method in the user interface.
 
  • #33


XXX000 Ahhhh
 
  • #34
😴❤❤
 
  • #35
Tghu Verd said:
Neil Young is a famous musician, no doubt, but I had no idea he's also a firebrand against what he views technology has done to sound quality in the music industry. In a recent Vergecast interview, he holds nothing back - including profanity, in case you're not keen to hear such - as he dumps on Apple, MP3, and pretty much anything digital.

He sounds like a grumpy old man to me, railing against progress, believing he can hear depth in analogue that digital cannot capture and that 'the youth of today' have nothing to compare against so don't know their being conned by the studios.

"OK boomer" came to mind a few times as I listened, but I am not discounting that his complaint has validity. Still, is he merely the equivalent of a quality coach maker bemoaning Henry Ford's volume built Model T, or does he have a legitimate complaint?

I was never keen on his voice although I liked some of his songs, After the Gold rush is a beautiful song but I always preferred the Prelude version.I like him more now, perhaps I am getting grumpy with him.From vinyl to CD lost something for me, I don’t think I bought any CDs from when they came out in the 80s till the late 90s.
 
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  • #36
I'm just going to roundly disagree with Mr Young there.

Yes MP3 can be atrocious or actually pretty decent depending on how the compression is set up.

Use to be a little bit of a HiFi nut, so we did some experiments. A friend of mine had a really nice recording on CD that we used as reference, then we ripped it, and compressed it in various compression rates and did A-B blind comparison.
128k was pretty terrible
196k was noticeably better, on some poorer speakers 196k was almost indistinguishable from the original (due to lack of fidelity in the mid/highs), but on good speakers still sounded bad when you heard the A-B.
256k better again
320k was still perceptibly different if you knew what to listen for (weird HF scrambling)
320k VBR you'd really have to listen hard (make it up?) to tell the difference. We decided that 320k VBR was "acceptable".

What makes or breaks a recording though is the final studio down mix, and what its targeted for, most "pop" (aka garbage) is (or at least used to be) down mixed to sound good on crappy stereos, usually a bit of boost in the lows and some in the highs, and fairly compressed (ie dynamic range, not data) to overcome the short comings of the average radio. Put such a recording on a good system and it just sounds bad, quite tiring to listen to, wallowy bass and over done highs with no dynamics.
 
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  • #37
I like a wide rang of music, incl electronic music, what funny with good hi fi systems is you can hear the poor sampling in the samples they used to make the music. And some of the electronic music sound good on a poor quality stereo (some tracks that I really enjoyed) but were practically embarrassing once on a clear system. Here you could really tell which electronic music artists understood what they were doing creating the music, some of the recordings are fantastic, a well recorded analog synth is awesome.
 
  • #38
Regardless of whether I agree or disagree with his point of view on sound quality, I nearly choked when Neil Young said (paraphrasing): "I'm 75 years old, you should listen to what I'm saying..."
 
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  • #39
Rock & Roll Hall of Fame

NEIL YOUNG

Year: 1995

Inducted by: EDDIE VEDDER (PEARL JAM)

Category: PERFORMERS

https://www.rockhall.com/inductees/neil-young
Neil Young, Broken Arrow Ranch, Half Moon Bay, California 1971

https://www.morrisonhotelgallery.com/photographs/mDrAPY/Neil-Young-Broken-Arrow-Ranch-Half-Moon-Bay-California--1971

I’m always heading to Half Moon Bay! I love it.

It was Neil that inspired me to play with my three harmonicas. I can really WAIL! Seriously I mean it!
 
  • #40
Remember the phone service commercial that advertised "You can hear a pin drop"?

I hear it when playing the video on my computer, but I don't think the experiment would work on any modern cell phone I've listened to.
 
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  • #41
Mary Conrads Sanburn said:
I’m always heading to Half Moon Bay!

Every time I used to travel to the Bay area for work, a bunch of us would go up to Half moon Bay to the Moss bay Distillery and sit for an evening. I never did see the ghost.
 
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  • #42
I hope to never see a ghost:oldsurprised:

Historical Landmark, Home to "The Blue Lady" Ghost
A designated California Point of Historical Interest, the restaurant's history includes a popular speakeasy and famous ghost.

During Prohibition, the San Mateo Coast was an ideal spot for rum running, bootleggers and “speakeasies,” establishments which sold illegal booze to thirsty clients.

One of the most successful speakeasies of the era was Frank’s Place on the cliffs at Moss Beach. Built by Frank Torres in 1927, Frank’s became a popular nightspot for silent film stars and politicians from the City. Mystery writer Dashiell Hammett frequented the place and used it as a setting for one of his detective stories.

The restaurant, located on the cliff, above a secluded beach was a perfect location to benefit from the clandestine activities of Canadian rum-runners. Under cover of darkness and fog, illegal whiskey was landed on the beach, dragged up a steep cliff and loaded into waiting vehicles for transport to San Francisco. Some of the booze always found its way into the garage beneath Frank’s Place. Frank Torres used his excellent political and social connections to operate a highly successful, if illegal, business. Unlike many of the other speakeasies along the coast, Frank’s Place was never raided.

[. . . ]

The Distillery also retains one of Frank’s former customers, as well. Its resident ghost, "The Blue Lady”, still haunts the premises, trying to recapture the romance and excitement of Frank’s speakeasy years. The story of The Blue Lady was documented by the TV program "Unsolved Mysteries", and has been seen by millions of people around the world. Perhaps you will see her when you visit!
###
https://mossbeachdistillery.com/history-ghost/
 
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  • #43
Dr Transport said:
Only guy I can sing to in the presence of my family and not sound out of tune.
I found that the key to singing Neil Young is to plug one nostril.
 
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  • #44
Mondayman said:
I found that the key to singing Neil Young is to plug one nostril.
And the key to listening is to plug both ears (sorry, couldn't resist) :biggrin:
 
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  • #45
OCR said:
Sorry, couldn't resist. . . :DD

1586178065722.png


pbuk said:
And the key to listening is to plug both ears. . . :biggrin:
.
 
  • #46
Rolling Stone
APRIL 6, 2020 10:46AM ET

Neil Young Drops Vintage Crazy Horse Concert

Previously unseen 1991 gig shot at Buffalo, New York’s War Memorial captures Young at the height of his “Godfather of Grunge” period

By

ANDY GREENE

Neil Young has dug into his archives and unearthed video of a complete concert he played with Crazy Horse at Buffalo’s War Memorial on February 16th, 1991 on the Smell the Horse tour. He posted it for free on his
Neil Young Archives website. (Update: Young has since taken down the show.)

“This is raw,” Young wrote. “Untouched sound…we normally would have fixed some things and we will get to it, but we are sharing this with all of you just as it is ‘in all its Ragged Glory’ as [my late producer David] Briggs would have said. We are not waiting.”

The show mixes Crazy Horse standards like “Cortez the Killer,” “Like a Hurricane” and “Welfare Mothers” with songs he’d recently released on Ragged Glory like “Love to Burn” and “****in’ Up.” The tour launched just as the Gulf War began and every show featured a special rendition of Bob Dylan’s “Blowin’ in the Wind” in response. The setlist didn’t change much throughout the course of the tour, but this Buffalo gig is one of just two nights where he broke out the 1976 obscurity “Campaigner.”

The live album Weld was cut on this tour, but only “Blowin’ in the Wind” and “Like a Hurricane” were recorded at this Buffalo gig. The complete show has never been seen anywhere. “We can’t get into the archive vault to retrieve the master for a remix,” Young wrote, “but it’s debatable whether one is needed at this moment.”

Young was planning on touring America with Crazy Horse this year, but the Coronavirus forced him to postpone it. In the past couple of weeks, he’s posted two homemade Fireside Sessions concerts that he filmed at the Telluride, Colorado, house he shares with his wife, actress Daryl Hannah. They are packed with rarities and fan favorites like “On the Beach,” “Little Wing,” “Homefires” and “Words.”

A third edition is coming soon. “There was a brief delay, as my lovely wife was ill for several days and had to isolate herself, even during our isolation,” Young recently wrote. “It proved particularly challenging on the food front, however, she recovered, all is well and now we’re back on track.”

They initially tried to livestream the show, but their internet connection was too slow to make it work. Hannah now shoots the show on her iPad, edits it and then leaves the device on their doorstep for a friend to bring into town, where it is uploaded to the web.

As we await the new Fireside Session, check out the 1991 Crazy Horse gig. It’s Young at his Godfather of Grunge prime and a great gift for fans stuck in their homes.

https://www.rollingstone.com/music/music-news/neil-young-drops-vintage-crazy-horse-concert-978877/

Love you Neil and Daryl Hannah:oldsmile: Thanks Rollingstone!
 
  • #47
Before CDs, some audiophiles would play a vinly record once on a Linn turntable with a very expensive cartridge connected to a pristine diamond needle and record the playback on a high-end reel-to-reel tape deck. Then they'd put the vinyl away, and they could play the tape hundreds of times before the the chromium dioxide started to wear away.

When the CD arrived, we were all insulted. We preferred noise and hiss to this condescending doing of integrals. They called 40 kilocycles "oversampling" based on the notion that human hearing can't detect more than 20 kilocycles. But 2 samples per hearable cycle doesn't come close to the real sound.

I don't disagree with Mr. Young for wanting back the fullness of analog sound.
 
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  • #48
sysprog said:
Before CDs, some audiophiles would play a vinly record once on a Linn turntable with a very expensive cartridge connected to a pristine diamond needle and record the playback on a high-end reel-to-reel tape deck. Then they'd put the vinyl away, and they could play the tape hundreds of times before the the chromium dioxide started to wear away.

When the CD arrived, we were all insulted. We preferred noise and hiss to this condescending doing of integrals. They called 40 kilocycles "oversampling" based on the notion that human hearing can't detect more than 20 kilocycles. But 2 samples per hearable cycle doesn't come close to the real sound.

I don't disagree with Mr. Young for wanting back the fullness of analog sound.

See, a lot of audiophiles go based on what you're claiming here, that "2 samples per hearable cycle doesn't come close to the real sound". However, mathematics doesn't always follow intuition. You can perfectly recreate a signal as long as you have at least 2 samples per cycle of the highest desired frequency. It's not an approximation. It's a perfect reproduction. In actuality, the waveform recreated by a CD at 44.1kHz or a DVD at 48kHz will be a *better* reproduction than what a record can achieve, because the analog errors in the record will be far larger than errors introduced by the digitization process.

There's a slight argument to using 24 bit rather than 16 bit. 16 bit is adequate for audibly perfect reproduction, but you have to be a bit careful with your levels or you can end up with either clipping or audible background noise. 24 bit solves this issue. That having been said, I've seen lots of blind tests, and I've never seen evidence that anyone can detect a properly configured and high quality 16 bit/44.1kHz A-->D-->A loop inserted in their analog system of choice. Digital is audibly perfect, no matter what grumpy old audiophiles like to claim.

(It's worth noting that MP3s can absolutely audibly degrade the sound, though even then, that issue is largely solved with modern encoders at 256 or 320k bitrate)
 
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  • #49
cjl said:
See, a lot of audiophiles go based on what you're claiming here, that "2 samples per hearable cycle doesn't come close to the real sound". However, mathematics doesn't always follow intuition. You can perfectly recreate a signal as long as you have at least 2 samples per cycle of the highest desired frequency. It's not an approximation. It's a perfect reproduction. In actuality, the waveform recreated by a CD at 44.1kHz or a DVD at 48kHz will be a *better* reproduction than what a record can achieve, because the analog errors in the record will be far larger than errors introduced by the digitization process.

There's a slight argument to using 24 bit rather than 16 bit. 16 bit is adequate for audibly perfect reproduction, but you have to be a bit careful with your levels or you can end up with either clipping or audible background noise. 24 bit solves this issue. That having been said, I've seen lots of blind tests, and I've never seen evidence that anyone can detect a properly configured and high quality 16 bit/44.1kHz A-->D-->A loop inserted in their analog system of choice. Digital is audibly perfect, no matter what grumpy old audiophiles like to claim.

(It's worth noting that MP3s can absolutely audibly degrade the sound, though even then, that issue is largely solved with modern encoders at 256 or 320k bitrate)
The music waveform set isn't all perfect sine waves; not every instrument is a gold flute (closest instrument to a perfect sine wave), so, no, 2 samples per cycle doesn't capture all the information, and the audiophile can reliably detect that there is a difference.
 
  • #50
No, it's not a perfect sine wave, but every waveform can be represented as a sum of perfect sines, and capturing all of those sines up to 20kHz is sufficient to create an audibly perfect reproduction of any sound waveform. As I said above, there have been studies done about whether people can hear the difference, and the evidence counteracts your claim that audiophiles can hear a difference.

A 16 bit, 44.1kHz digitally sampled reproduction is audibly perfect, if done right. It is completely impossible to hear the difference between a signal that has been digitized in this way and the analog original.

(I would even argue that 256 and 320kbps MP3s are audibly perfect for nearly every person and nearly every audio sample. There are a few weird corner cases that keep it from being perfect though).
 
  • #51
cjl said:
No, it's not a perfect sine wave, but every waveform can be represented as a sum of perfect sines, and capturing all of those sines up to 20kHz is sufficient to create an audibly perfect reproduction of any sound waveform. As I said above, there have been studies done about whether people can hear the difference, and the evidence counteracts your claim that audiophiles can hear a difference.

A 16 bit, 44.1kHz digitally sampled reproduction is audibly perfect, if done right. It is completely impossible to hear the difference between a signal that has been digitized in this way and the analog original.

(I would even argue that 256 and 320kbps MP3s are audibly perfect for nearly every person and nearly every audio sample. There are a few weird corner cases that keep it from being perfect though).
I can reliably hear the difference myself. I don't want to make an 'argument from authority' claim, but when I was a kid I got to observe the making of an early ADC -- it was a set of close to a dozen rack-mounted boards -- the EE admitted that he was doing only about 40Khz, and said that if he could, he'd rather do at least 80Khz, because there can often be a wave within a wave, and that can change the feel.
 
  • #52
No, you can't. I promise. Given an identical source, I guarantee you couldn't detect whether your audio has been digitized or not. I don't know what the engineer was saying specifically when you talked to him, and there are absolutely valid reasons for recording and mastering at higher sample rates (largely due to the ease of making the required low pass filter to avoid aliasing), but at the end of the day, 16/44.1 is enough to reproduce an audibly perfect signal, and it is perfect as a distribution and listening format.

There are some good videos going over what the reasons for sample rates and why it's unnecessary to use higher rates here:

https://xiph.org/video/vid1.shtml (basic intro to digital audio/video sampling)
https://xiph.org/video/vid2.shtml (More detail about why common audiophile myths about digital audio are wrong)
 
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  • #53
cjl said:
No, you can't. I promise.
Despite the strong plausibility of your rationale, I allot more credence to the evidence of my sensory experience, than I will do regarding your promise.
 
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  • #54
Unfortunately, human sensory perception is really, really bad at picking out small differences, especially when you are aware of the changes. The only accurate way to test this is a proper blinded test, and every time these have been run, people don't do any better than chance at picking out which signals have been digitized or not.
 
  • #56
cjl said:
Unfortunately, human sensory perception is really, really bad at picking out small differences, especially when you are aware of the changes. The only accurate way to test this is a proper blinded test, and every time these have been run, people don't do any better than chance at picking out which signals have been digitized or not.
I'm not 'people'; I'm me -- play a digital recording to me twice, and it will sound exactly the same both times; play an analog version twice, and the imperfections of the playback mechanisms will make it sound different one time from the other -- wherefore: I will be able to tell which is digital and which is analog -- I disagree with your claim that there's no humanly detectable difference.
 
  • #57
That's why the correct way to run the test is with very high end analog equipment as your source, and then to insert an A->D->A loop in for the digital tests (and obviously just bypass it for the analog tests). If digital is audibly degrading the signal in any way, you should be able to hear when the A->D->A loop is part of the signal chain.
 
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  • #58
 
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  • #59
cjl said:
That's why the correct way to run the test is with very high end analog equipment as your source, and then to insert an A->D->A loop in for the digital tests (and obviously just bypass it for the analog tests). If digital is audibly degrading the signal in any way, you should be able to hear when the A->D->A loop is part of the signal chain.
The source to sink is more variable with analog-only than with with digital -- you're not going to re-do the the ADC for another instance of digital playback -- so each analog-only occurrence will sound more unique than each digital playback will.
 
  • #60
True, but if the goal is fidelity, that's a bad thing.