Music Is Neil Young just a grumpy old musician?

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Neil Young has expressed strong criticism of digital music formats, particularly MP3, in a recent interview, arguing that they compromise sound quality compared to analog recordings. He believes that the younger generation lacks the experience to recognize this decline in audio fidelity, suggesting that they are being misled by the music industry. Young's perspective resonates with a broader concern among musicians about the degradation of their work due to technological advances in music distribution. He emphasizes the importance of analog sound, claiming that digital formats fail to capture the depth and richness of music. Despite the advancements in digital audio technology, Young argues that unless music is recorded in analog, even lossless formats like WAV and FLAC cannot fully replicate the original sound. This debate touches on a larger philosophical shift in the music industry, where convenience often trumps quality, leading to a culture that accepts lower fidelity as the norm. Young's views highlight a tension between nostalgia for traditional sound quality and the realities of modern music consumption.
  • #51
cjl said:
No, it's not a perfect sine wave, but every waveform can be represented as a sum of perfect sines, and capturing all of those sines up to 20kHz is sufficient to create an audibly perfect reproduction of any sound waveform. As I said above, there have been studies done about whether people can hear the difference, and the evidence counteracts your claim that audiophiles can hear a difference.

A 16 bit, 44.1kHz digitally sampled reproduction is audibly perfect, if done right. It is completely impossible to hear the difference between a signal that has been digitized in this way and the analog original.

(I would even argue that 256 and 320kbps MP3s are audibly perfect for nearly every person and nearly every audio sample. There are a few weird corner cases that keep it from being perfect though).
I can reliably hear the difference myself. I don't want to make an 'argument from authority' claim, but when I was a kid I got to observe the making of an early ADC -- it was a set of close to a dozen rack-mounted boards -- the EE admitted that he was doing only about 40Khz, and said that if he could, he'd rather do at least 80Khz, because there can often be a wave within a wave, and that can change the feel.
 
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  • #52
No, you can't. I promise. Given an identical source, I guarantee you couldn't detect whether your audio has been digitized or not. I don't know what the engineer was saying specifically when you talked to him, and there are absolutely valid reasons for recording and mastering at higher sample rates (largely due to the ease of making the required low pass filter to avoid aliasing), but at the end of the day, 16/44.1 is enough to reproduce an audibly perfect signal, and it is perfect as a distribution and listening format.

There are some good videos going over what the reasons for sample rates and why it's unnecessary to use higher rates here:

https://xiph.org/video/vid1.shtml (basic intro to digital audio/video sampling)
https://xiph.org/video/vid2.shtml (More detail about why common audiophile myths about digital audio are wrong)
 
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  • #53
cjl said:
No, you can't. I promise.
Despite the strong plausibility of your rationale, I allot more credence to the evidence of my sensory experience, than I will do regarding your promise.
 
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  • #54
Unfortunately, human sensory perception is really, really bad at picking out small differences, especially when you are aware of the changes. The only accurate way to test this is a proper blinded test, and every time these have been run, people don't do any better than chance at picking out which signals have been digitized or not.
 
  • #56
cjl said:
Unfortunately, human sensory perception is really, really bad at picking out small differences, especially when you are aware of the changes. The only accurate way to test this is a proper blinded test, and every time these have been run, people don't do any better than chance at picking out which signals have been digitized or not.
I'm not 'people'; I'm me -- play a digital recording to me twice, and it will sound exactly the same both times; play an analog version twice, and the imperfections of the playback mechanisms will make it sound different one time from the other -- wherefore: I will be able to tell which is digital and which is analog -- I disagree with your claim that there's no humanly detectable difference.
 
  • #57
That's why the correct way to run the test is with very high end analog equipment as your source, and then to insert an A->D->A loop in for the digital tests (and obviously just bypass it for the analog tests). If digital is audibly degrading the signal in any way, you should be able to hear when the A->D->A loop is part of the signal chain.
 
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  • #58
 
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  • #59
cjl said:
That's why the correct way to run the test is with very high end analog equipment as your source, and then to insert an A->D->A loop in for the digital tests (and obviously just bypass it for the analog tests). If digital is audibly degrading the signal in any way, you should be able to hear when the A->D->A loop is part of the signal chain.
The source to sink is more variable with analog-only than with with digital -- you're not going to re-do the the ADC for another instance of digital playback -- so each analog-only occurrence will sound more unique than each digital playback will.
 
  • #60
True, but if the goal is fidelity, that's a bad thing.
 
  • #61
cjl said:
True, but if the goal is fidelity, that's a bad thing.
Exactly the point of the artists. By analogy; by late 19th early 20th C. photography could reproduce 'near perfect' pictures of actual objects. Pundits, some art professors and professional photographers sounded the death knell of realistic painting particularly portraiture as a viable form. Instead the world witnessed an explosion of new painting schools and techniques influenced by and influencing the latest technological advances.

Wealthy patrons eschewed 'inert, lifeless' professional photograph portraits in favour of life sized paintings by prominent artists. True, a skilled painter could overcome or overlook flaws in the subject exacerbated by well lit photos; but even after techniques were developed to manipulate and correct photographs at whim, portrait painting and related drawing fields such as caricature persist as popular and serious art forms.

Even as some painters project a photo onto canvas as basis for a painting, owners and aficionados of paintings derive pleasure and sense attributes conveyed by the painter's hand lacking in machine reproductions. Engineers can insist that careful measurements indicate mechanical/electronic facsimiles faithfully reproduce, even improve upon, the original wave forms without convincing the audience who sense the benefits of the artist's contributions to the aesthetic experience.
 
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  • #62
That's not a particularly good analogy though. The flaws introduced by an analog system aren't an artist's new way to interpret the piece. They're just flaws.

Yes, artistic interpretation is important, but that interpretation happens when the artist performs the work, not when you reproduce it at home. To use your analogy a bit, if I want to see the Mona Lisa, but I can't go to france, I want the highest quality, highest fidelity image of the work as possible. Introducing flaws into the reproduction process is only making it worse, not adding any additional benefits. Your argument is a good one for why we don't want all musical performances to be based on MIDI files performed perfectly from the score, but it's not a good one for why the reproduction shouldn't be as high fidelity and as perfect as possible.
 
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  • #63
Odd contradictions about musical performances and excellent reproductions emerge during live performances of popular recorded music. One of the beauties of live jazz is the perceived ability of the musicians to jam, to improvise and introduce modifications to the score depending on mood and conditions -- venue size and acoustics, time of performance, mix of instruments and players, etc.

In reality jazz performances are often quite structured and predetermined, yet the audience expects and accepts improvisation. Audiences at live rock concerts according to several musicians are not as forgiving. When Carlos Santana and his eponymous band played warm up at rock concerts before becoming famous, they were free to improvise on stage, to experiment with mods that might fit the styles of the more famous bands to follow, and to appeal to the current audience.

Once recorded, published and popular; Santana found they had to adhere to the audience's expectations for each song; essentially reproduce the exact cadence, timing and words popularized in the successful recordings. Many other musicians mention this effect including Young. Do you wants exact reproductions at a live concert or are the artists free to improvise?
 
  • #64
What does that have to do with being able to record and accurately reproduce the original sound?
 
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  • #65
sysprog said:
Despite the strong plausibility of your rationale, I allot more credence to the evidence of my sensory experience, than I will do regarding your promise.
This claim reminds me of the Feynman's quote: "The first principle is that you must not fool yourself and you are the easiest person to fool."
 
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  • #66
vela said:
This claim reminds me of the Feynman's quote: "The first principle is that you must not fool yourself and you are the easiest person to fool."
Yes, but in discussions like the one going on here, it is best if everyone adheres to this principle :cool:.
 
  • #67
Klystron said:
Do you wants exact reproductions at a live concert or are the artists free to improvise?
At a live concert, of course I don't expect an exact reproduction. If I buy a recording of that concert though, I do expect an exact reproduction, and digital is better at achieving that.
 
  • #68
cjl said:
At a live concert, of course I don't expect an exact reproduction. If I buy a recording of that concert though, I do expect an exact reproduction, and digital is better at achieving that.
I try to avoid online "arguments" as a waste of time. This discussion has some small merit if it illuminates incorrect comparison criteria. I do not care if so-called "analogue" reproduction is superior or inferior to digital, as the latter is what we presently have and that most of us can afford to listen. Neill Young does.

The issue for artists is NOT that the untrained human ear cannot distinguish between digital and analogue recordings as technology has improved, but that by definition sampling techniques do not capture all the information present in a musical performance.

The absurdity lies in that most live performances are already sampled and digitized in real-time using nearly identical equipment as present in recording studios. An already nebulous argument rendered moot.

As for noise-free music recording techniques, music IS noise. Certain distortion pleases people. Among the first artists to transition from live to recorded content, the most successful such as Frank Sinatra and Buddy Holly took control of the sampling to select what their trained ears regarded as the best sound.
 
  • #69
The actual hearing range (of a youngster) is supposedly met (at least to the standards of marketing departments) by assuming that 44.1kHz covers the pure frequencies (assuming of course cooperative slew behaviour from the DAC's).

But, some of the differences between analog and digital recording is that on digital ultrasonics get cut during the recording process, which means their normal aliasing into the audio range is missing.

A couple of tangentially topical anecdotes :

Yours truly was a bit of a hero for a normally decent chamber choir that couldn't seem to "lock" harmonically during a concert warm-up. Turned off the A/C with its attendant otherwise-innocuous HF noise, and bingo, business as usual.

The last iteration of the analog Oberheim OB series synthesizers was generally agreed upon (mostly by purists, mind) as having something-ineffable missing in the sound. Not ineffable at all: they had added some lowcut filters, presumably because of the advent of digital, andor to keep the more affordable iteration from possibly blowing woofers out, for more affordable bands that didn't have pro engineers/equipment already plugged in.
 
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  • #70
Klystron said:
but that by definition sampling techniques do not capture all the information present in a musical performance.
Yes, but no recording technique captures all information present. There's no such thing as a recording technique with infinite bandwidth and dynamic range, so you will always lose something. However, with digital, we can carefully control and exactly understand what we lose, and we can therefore select our technique so that we only lose the inaudible part. With analog, the distortion, noise, and lost information is much harder to quantify, which is a large part of why it's worse. You will always lose some information, so why not select your recording methodology so you can know and control exactly what is being lost?

In addition, amusingly, if you look at the actual capability of analog recording techniques, they come up measurably worse than digital in basically every way. A really good brand new vinyl record can achieve about 70dB of dynamic range, in perfect conditions. This is about the equivalent of what you can achieve with 12 bit digital audio. Studio reel-to-reel tape can approach 80dB (though it would typically be lower), or a bit over 13 bits. CDs have 16 bits though, so they handily outperform analog for dynamic range, and digital recording and mastering is usually done in 32 bit float (though in practice, the actual dynamic range can basically never exceed 20 bits or so, but there are good reasons why 32 bit is more convenient for recording and mixing before downconverting to 16 or 24 bit in the final result).

In frequency response, on the high end, vinyl does have a bit of an advantage over a normal CD. In perfect conditions, vinyl can theoretically reproduce up to 100kHz or so, and it's pretty easily demonstrable that it can do 45kHz, since the CD4 quadraphonic record format relied on a 45kHz bandwidth in order to work. However, this relies on nonstandard stylus heads - most record players will not be able to achieve this. In addition, it would rely on everything throughout the mastering and recording process also handling those frequencies, and most studio analog tape is not really able to do this without running at pretty high speeds, but then you sacrifice low end to do it. You pretty much can't get tape to both record well down to 20Hz and also to get usable high frequencies above 18-20kHz or so (I have found a few claims of being able to do 25-30,000Hz on tape though, so you could maybe achieve that in perfect conditions?).

Most records are also cut on machines that have an 18kHz low pass applied to the signal as well, so even if they had preserved high frequency content, that gets removed at the record manufacturing stage (because high frequency requires more power to cut which burns out cutting heads, and it's largely just noise anyways in most cases). Even if you do happen to get a record that was cut with high frequency content, and the entire mastering chain was able to capture and preserve that content, and the playback system is able to reproduce that content, there still isn't any evidence that it's audible in any way.

And, of course, if you really care about high frequencies that much, high sample rate digital is much better at capturing them than records anyways.

Also, on the low end, CDs are vastly superior to vinyl - vinyl typically sums bass to mono below 100Hz, and a lot of cartridges have noticeable deviations from a flat response as you approach 20Hz. Vinyl also struggles with phase misalignments in the bass. CDs on the other hand will happily and perfectly reproduce stereo bass all the way down to 20Hz and below, and this difference can be clearly audible.
 
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  • #71
Canadian singer Neil Young’s house is in Redwood City, CA. He calls his property at the end of Bear Gulch Road “Broken Arrow Ranch.”

Active as a musician and writer since the 1960s, Neil Young’s net worth is $65 million.

Neil Young has been a member of two bands – he joined Crosby, Stills and Nash in 1969, making it Crosby, Stills, Nash and Young, and founded Buffalo Springfield in 1966, with Stephen Stills and Richie Furay. He has also had an extensive solo career, which started in 1968.

With more than 35 studio albums, Neil Young was inducted into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame twice – as a member of Buffalo Springfield and as a solo performer.

Throughout his career, Neil Young experimented with many different musical styles and plays many instruments, including piano, harmonica, and acoustic guitar. He is best known for this work in folk-rock and country rock.
He influence is often noted in alternative rock and grunge, earning him the nickname “Godfather of Grunge.”

In addition to his work in music, he has directed or co-directed films under the pseudonym Bernard Shakey. His films include “Journey Through the Past,” “Rust Never Sleeps,” “Human Highway,” “Greendale,” and “CSNY/Déjà Vu.”

Neil Young had three children. His oldest son Zeke is with actress Carrie Snodgress, with whom he had a long-term relationship in the 1970s. Neil Young married his ex-wife Pegi in 1978. They had two children – daughter Amber and son Ben, who has cerebral palsy. They divorced after 36 years of marriage in 2014.

He is advocate for children with severe verbal and physical disabilities and founded the Bridge School with his ex-wife Pegi to serve children with disabilities. Neil Young helps support the school through annual benefit concerts. He is also an avid environmentalist, supporting causes from electronic cars to co-founding the benefit concert Farm Aid.

https://virtualglobetrotting.com/map/neil-youngs-house/view/google/

Of course I love Neil Young! I don't live that far away form him and his wife.
 
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  • #72
Mary Conrads Sanburn said:
Neil Young Drops Vintage Crazy Horse Concert

Previously unseen 1991 gig shot at Buffalo, New York’s War Memorial captures Young at the height of his “Godfather of Grunge” period
I saw this show, it was the best Neil Young show I've ever seen, and I've seen him in conccert more than any other artist.
 
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  • #73
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