Can A' Be Considered Countable?

  • Thread starter trash
  • Start date
  • Tags
    Set
In summary: You have shown that ##A^\prime_k## is countable, thus all ##A^\prime_k## are countable. And ##A^\prime## is the union of all ##A^\prime_k##. So you can conclude that ##A^\prime## is countable.In summary, the conversation discusses the proof that the set A, consisting of functions from the integers to the integers that have a finite number of nonzero values, is countable. The conversation suggests proving the set A' with the same condition is countable, and then using the fact that the countable union of countable sets is countable. It also addresses a potential flaw in the proof, regarding the product of countable sets, and concludes that the functions
  • #1
trash
14
0

Homework Statement


Let [itex]A=\{f:\mathbb{Z}\to\mathbb{Z}: f(n)\neq 0 \text{for a finite number of n}\}[/itex], prove that [itex]A[/itex] is countable.


Homework Equations


I'm considering using that it would be equivalent to prove that the set [itex]A'=\{f:\mathbb{N}\to\mathbb{N}: f(n)\neq 0 \text{for a finite number of n}\}[/itex] is countable.


The Attempt at a Solution



I'm dividing this solution in two steps, first proving what I stated en (2), this is, that [itex]A[/itex] and [itex]A'[/itex] have the same cardinal. I'm still trying to prove this.
(...)

Then prove [itex]A'[/itex] is countable, I define [itex]A'_k = \{f:\mathbb{N}\to\mathbb{N}: f(n)\neq 0 \text{ for k numbers}[/itex], I want to prove that every [itex]A'_k[/itex] is countable. I define now the function [itex]g_k:A'_k\to \underbrace{\mathbb{N}\times\dots\times\mathbb{N}}_{\text{2k}}[/itex] by [itex]g_k(f)=(n_1,\dots,n_k,f(n_1),\dots,f(n_k))[/itex] where [itex]n_1,n_2,\dots[/itex] are the points where [itex]f[/itex] is not zero.
This function defines (or at least it seems to me) an injection to the set [itex]A'_k[/itex] to a countable set.
A problem is that only a finite product of countable sets is countable, can I still conclude [itex]A'[/itex] after take the union of the [itex]A'_k[/itex]?.
 
Physics news on Phys.org
  • #2
trash said:
A problem is that only a finite product of countable sets is countable, can I still conclude [itex]A'[/itex] after take the union of the [itex]A'_k[/itex]?.

Yes. You have shown each ##A^\prime_k## to be countable. The countable union of countable sets is countable, thus
[tex]\bigcup_k A^\prime_k[/tex]
is countable.

Your remark about the product of countable sets makes me think you make the following error: let ##B_n = \mathbb{N}^n## for ##n\in \mathbb{N}##. This is countable. But
[tex]\mathbb{N}^\mathbb{N} = \bigcup B_n[/tex]
is uncountable. The flaw here is that the above equality does not hold. That is, we only have
[tex]\bigcup B_n \subset \mathbb{N}^\mathbb{N}[/tex]
And this inclusion is strict. Prove this. (Also, I identify here an element ##(k_1,...,k_n)\in B_n## with ##(k_1,...,k_n,0,0,...)\in \mathbb{N}^{\mathbb{N}}##).
 
Last edited:
  • #3
A couple of minor points:
micromass said:
The union of countable sets is countable
The countable union of countable sets is countable
And this union is strict.
"And this subset is strict."
 
  • #4
haruspex said:
A couple of minor points:

The countable union of countable sets is countable

"And this subset is strict."

Thank you very much. I'll correct them!
 
  • #5
micromass said:
Yes. You have shown each ##A^\prime_k## to be countable. The countable union of countable sets is countable, thus
[tex]\bigcup_k A^\prime_k[/tex]
is countable.

Your remark about the product of countable sets makes me think you make the following error: let ##B_n = \mathbb{N}^n## for ##n\in \mathbb{N}##. This is countable. But
[tex]\mathbb{N}^\mathbb{N} = \bigcup B_n[/tex]
is uncountable. The flaw here is that the above equality does not hold. That is, we only have
[tex]\bigcup B_n \subset \mathbb{N}^\mathbb{N}[/tex]
And this inclusion is strict. Prove this. (Also, I identify here an element ##(k_1,...,k_n)\in B_n## with ##(k_1,...,k_n,0,0,...)\in \mathbb{N}^{\mathbb{N}}##).
Thanks a lot.
Just for clarification, my worry comes mainly because of the product. I'm trying to deal with an intuitive way to think about the infinity in this case, I thought the problem was how I defined the function [itex]g_k[/itex], because I defined an injection to the set of [itex]\underbrace{\mathbb{N}\times\dots\times\mathbb{N}}_{\text{2k}}[/itex] and [itex]k[/itex] increases to infinity ([itex]A'=\bigcup_{k=1}^{\infty}[/itex]) then I wouldn't be able to do the general step and say the union is countable.

Regarding to the part above when I said I still was trying to find a way to prove [itex]A[/itex] countable [itex]\iff A'[/itex] countable. The functions I defined in this thread would work as well to prove this part?.
 
Last edited:
  • #6
trash said:
Thanks a lot.
I wouldn't be able to do the general step and say the union is countable.

What do you mean? You can show it for any integer ##k## and then just take the union. This works.

Do you mean you can't do this for ##k=+\infty##? That's true.

Regarding to the part above when I said I still was trying to find a way to prove [itex]A[/itex] countable [itex]\iff A'[/itex] countable. The functions I defined in this thread would work as well to prove this part?.

Yes.
 

Related to Can A' Be Considered Countable?

What is the definition of a countable set?

A countable set is a set that has a one-to-one correspondence with the set of natural numbers (positive integers).

How do you prove a set is countable?

To prove a set is countable, you must show that there exists a function that maps the elements of the set to the set of natural numbers in a one-to-one manner.

What is the difference between a countable set and an uncountable set?

A countable set has a finite or infinite number of elements that can be mapped to the set of natural numbers, while an uncountable set has an infinite number of elements that cannot be mapped in a one-to-one manner to the set of natural numbers.

Can a set be both countable and uncountable?

No, a set cannot be both countable and uncountable. It is either one or the other.

What are some examples of countable and uncountable sets?

Examples of countable sets include the set of integers, the set of even numbers, and the set of positive rational numbers. Examples of uncountable sets include the set of real numbers and the set of irrational numbers.

Similar threads

  • Calculus and Beyond Homework Help
Replies
1
Views
536
  • Calculus and Beyond Homework Help
Replies
3
Views
580
  • Calculus and Beyond Homework Help
Replies
1
Views
598
  • Calculus and Beyond Homework Help
Replies
2
Views
342
  • Calculus and Beyond Homework Help
Replies
1
Views
550
  • Calculus and Beyond Homework Help
Replies
3
Views
545
  • Calculus and Beyond Homework Help
Replies
0
Views
472
  • Calculus and Beyond Homework Help
Replies
6
Views
1K
  • Calculus and Beyond Homework Help
Replies
3
Views
457
  • Calculus and Beyond Homework Help
Replies
2
Views
2K
Back
Top