Is Teleportation Possible? A Hypothesis

[Argonil]

Hello.

I have thought up some hypothesis about teleportation, I'd like you to read it, give your opinion and tell me if there is anything I should add or rephrase. I just wrote it, so I haven't really had much time to "polish" it.

Document is attached.

 

[JaredJames]

I assume this is schoolwork?

There's a lot of discussion on this exact topic floating around.

1. You would die. Your body at the initial location is destroyed = dead.

2. Using the same components to "put you back together again", seems like a simple rebuild and you'd be the same person. The only time you get the "is it the same person" problem is when you use new materials in the reconstruction.

To think of it slightly differently, imagine me taking my car apart, transporting the pieces elsewhere and then rebuilding it - it's the same car. As long as I don't swap out components, it's the same thing as I started with.

3. You start talking about using the same particles (materials) to rebuild the body and then you go on talking as if they are new particles - which is it? If you 'destroy' the body and reuse those materials, 2 above applies.

4. I see you go on to that issue a little further in, you need to check the order because it is confusing and blurring concepts.

5. If multiple copies are made, you would be multiple people - all individual, but sharing the initial 'starting data'.

6. You would not be 'controlling multiple consciousnesses at once' - we don't have the capability to do that. Consciousness is intrinsic to the brain as far as we're aware and there's no way to do what you propose.

7. "I would say that the possibility of you dying and a new copy of you appearing instead is much more likely" - that depends if you use the original materials or not (as per 2).

8. I'd leave the soul out of it.

You seem to have a fair grasp on the ideas behind teleportation and it's apparent 'problems'. Just needs some polishing.

Just remember this is all philosophical arguments at the moment given we can't actually do it.

 

[cosmik debris]

It depends on what audience this document is intended for. There has been an awful lot of science fiction and proper science written about teleportation, perhaps reading a few of these would help in deciding how to proceed.

 

[Argonil]

No, this isn't schoolwork. Please read it properly, I think that I've stated it pretty clear. I'm not talking about using different particles and your own particles in an "one or the other" context, but instead considering what would happen in both cases.

 

[JaredJames]

No, this isn't schoolwork. Please read it properly, I think that I've stated it pretty clear...

I did read it, my comments stand. It needs polishing.

Don't ask for advice and then tell me "I haven't read it correctly" and tell me my comments are wrong.

Any reason you are doing it if not for schoolwork? Is it just self study?

There are a few threads here floating around that cover this exact topic, see if you can find them.

I'm not talking about using different particles and your own particles in an "one or the other" context, but instead considering what would happen in both cases.

But you do. You start discussing moving the original materials and reusing them, blur it by discussing the problems of not doing so (the problems of using 'new' materials) but not saying that is the case and then bringing in making a 'new' copy.

 

[Q_Goest]

Hi Argonil. I'm afraid you haven't thought of anything new. In his book, "The Emperor’s New Mind" (pg 27), Penrose asks a similar question. Penrose cites Hofstadter and Dennett from their book “The Mind’s Eye” which can be found online here:
http://themindi.blogspot.com/2007/02/introduction.html

An idea frequently discussed in this kind of context is the teleportation machine of science fiction. It is intended as a means of 'transportation' from, say, one planet to another, but whether it actually would be such, is what the discussion is all about. Instead of being physically transported by a spaceship the 'normal' way, the would-be traveler is scanned from head to toe, the accurate location and complete specification of every atom and every electron in his body being recorded in full detail. All this information is then beamed (at the speed of light), by an electromagnetic signal, to the distant planet of intended destination. There, the information is collected and used as the instructions to assemble a precise duplicate of the traveler, together with all his memories, his intentions, his hopes, and his deepest feelings. At least that is what is expected; for every detail of the state of his brain has been faithfully recorded, transmitted, and reconstructed. Assuming that the mechanism has worked, the original copy of the traveler can be ‘safely’ destroyed. Of course the question is: is this really a method of traveling from one place to another or is it merely the construction of a duplicate, together with the murder of the original? Would you be prepared to use this method of ‘travel’ – assuming that the method had been shown to be completely reliable, within its terms of reference? If teleportation is not traveling, then what is the difference in principal between it and just walking from one room into another? In the latter case, are not one’s atoms of one moment simply providing the information for the locations of the atoms of the next moment? We have seen, after all, that there is no significance in preserving the identity of any particular atom. The question of the identity of any particular atom is not even meaningful. Does not any moving pattern of atoms simply constitute a wave of information propagating from one place to another? Where is the essential difference between the propagation of waves which describes our traveler ambling in a commonplace way from one room to the other and that which takes place in the teleportation device?

Suppose it is true that teleportation does actually ‘work’, in the sense that the traveler’s own ‘awareness’ is actually reawakened in the copy of himself on the distant planet (assuming that this question has genuine meaning). What would happen if the original copy of the traveler were not destroyed, as the rules of this game demand? Would his ‘awareness’ be in two places at once? (Try to imagine your response to being told the following: ‘Oh dear, so the drug we gave you before placing you in the Teleporter has worn off prematurely has it? That is a little unfortunate, but no matter. Anyway, you will be pleased to hear that the other you – er, I mean the actual you, that is – has now arrived safely on Venus, so we can, er, dispose of you here – er, I mean of the redundant copy here. It will of course, be quite painless’) The situation has an air of paradox about it. Is there anything in the laws of physics which could render teleportation in principal impossible?

I'm sure there are many others that discuss this issue. You may want to do some research and see what's already been written.

 

[Argonil]

Hi Argonil. I'm afraid you haven't thought of anything new. In his book, "The Emperor’s New Mind" (pg 27), Penrose asks a similar question. Penrose cites Hofstadter and Dennett from their book “The Mind’s Eye” which can be found online here:
http://themindi.blogspot.com/2007/02/introduction.html

I'm sure there are many others that discuss this issue. You may want to do some research and see what's already been written.

Aww, that's sad to hear. Oh well, I guess it just proves that I have a mind that may some day in the future make a difference.


Also, yes, I just made it out of interest. Physics and philosophy are two things that I find very interesting.

 

[Ryan_m_b]

You should look up the ship of Theseus problem.

If you could invent a machine that could teleport the states and arrangements of all my particles to another set of particles you would have destroyed my body and created a new one.

Whether or not you have killed "me" is entirely dependent on the answer to the question "what is identity?". To all practical purposes the body that steps out of the receiver booth is me. It has all my physical characteristics, all my memories, thoughts/feelings etc. If you were to duplicate me there would be two identical Ryan's and for all practical purposes both would be me. One of them can make the claim of being the "original" if only because it is the Ryan who is the emergent property who could (hypothetically) track his body as being the one that was scanned rather than created. But whether or not one is "original" gives no advantage, at the point of duplication I have forked into two people. Each will now diverge into different people who share a common lineage in life up to a point.

 

[I_am_learning]

Oh god! I think Everybody thinks they are thinking it unique when these thoughts first appear. I once even began to write a science fiction novel on the exact same topic. Couldn't complete it though!
Its interesting to ponder how a teleported 'you' would think?

 

[HallsofIvy]

I recall a science fiction story (I don't remember the story) in which the original body was NOT destroyed- people had volunteered to be sent to a far distance space ship, knowing that the "copy" of themselves that was sent could not be returned- and the spaceship was NOT equipped for passengers. Since that "copy" had a the memories of the "original" a person would walk into the "transfer booth", then walk out- or he would walk into the transfer booth and suddenly find himself on a small ship knowing that he would die within a few days. Both happened!
Now, was there a 50-50 chance that you would be the one who walked out of the transfer booth?

 

[JaredJames]

Now, was there a 50-50 chance that you would be the one who walked out of the transfer booth?

No, why would there be?

If the original person is not destroyed, they just step in and step out as if nothing happened.

Yes, a copy would appear on a ship and yes it would think it was the one from Earth - but it's body would have been artificially constructed, a perfect clone.

For the person on earth, it would be like some random scan. For the one on the ship, they'd think they'd been sent to the ship and carry on from there. Both would have the same starting point, but from there they would diverge. The original would continue as normal, the copy would continue on it's own route. There wouldn't be a connection between them.

 

[Ryan_m_b]

No, why would there be?

If the original person is not destroyed, they just step in and step out as if nothing happened.

Yes, a copy would appear on a ship and yes it would think it was the one from Earth - but it's body would have been artificially constructed, a perfect clone.

For the person on earth, it would be like some random scan. For the one on the ship, they'd think they'd been sent to the ship and carry on from there. Both would have the same starting point, but from there they would diverge. The original would continue as normal, the copy would continue on it's own route. There wouldn't be a connection between them.

It can be regarded as 50/50 because when you are in the booth there is a 50/50 chance you will wake up in your original body or the copy. Whilst the original is guaranteed to walk out the copy is 100% accurate, for the copy they will have a memory of walking into the booth, fretting over the transfer and then waking up on the ship.

 

[JaredJames]

It can be regarded as 50/50 because when you are in the booth there is a 50/50 chance you will wake up in your original body or the copy. Whilst the original is guaranteed to walk out the copy is 100% accurate, for the copy they will have a memory of walking into the booth, fretting over the transfer and then waking up on the ship.

But the person in the booth doesn't go anywhere. They just get in, get out.

I'm taking that as "you". The person who was there before.

Yes, the one on the ship is "you" too, but not the same one who got in the booth. They just think they are because they are identical.

So what are the odds the person who walks in walks out? 100%. You just copy that person, that's all.

 

[Ryan_m_b]

I'm taking that as "you". The person who was there before.
.

In that sense yes you are right. However if you consider "you" to be your mind/emergent property of the body you have two options when walking into the booth;

1) You will stand there thinking about what is going to happen before the machine activates and you step out of the both.

2) You will stand there thinking about what is going to happen before the machine activates and you step out on the ship.

This is why it seems 50/50. Subjectively one of these two things is going to happen to "you"

 

[JaredJames]

But the one who steps in, will be the one who walks out. In that sense.

I suppose you'd also be the one who steps out on the ship - but then it's still a copy so not strictly you.

Meh, time travel and teleportation - guaranteed to fry your mind.

 

[Ryan_m_b]

But the one who steps in, will be the one who walks out. In that sense.

I suppose you'd also be the one who steps out on the ship - but then it's still a copy so not strictly you.

Meh, time travel and teleportation - guaranteed to fry your mind.

Really depends on what you think "you" is. Personally I think the copy is just as much "me" as the first body is. The only distinction is that one "me" occupies a body that shares the same particles as historical iterations of me (though this doesn't mean much, over the course of a few years all those particles are replaced. After a decade me and the duplicate will neither have any particles in our bodies that originally stepped into that booth but both will have the memories up until that point)

For a real fry up how about if you teleported a duplicate of yourself into a closed time like curve?

 

[cosmik debris]

I recall a science fiction story (I don't remember the story) booth?

Thanks heavens for the "no cloning" theorem :-)