News Is the Israel Wall a symbol of oppression?

[kat]

JEWS, ISRAEL AND PEACE IN PALESTINIAN TEXTBOOKS

The executive summary:

http://www.edume.org/reports/11/1.htm

Following the two surveys by CMIP of school textbooks published by the Palestinian Authority in 2000 and 2001, for grades 1, 2, 6, 7, and (as to one textbook) for grade 11, this latest report examines a newer set of some 35 books in various subjects published by the Authority in 2002, mainly for grades 3 and 8. As in the earlier surveys, the contents of the books were scrutinized according to the criteria set by UNESCO and CMIP (see Introduction). The main findings of this survey are as follows:


Judaism is presented as a monotheistic religion to which, by implication at least, Palestine is holy. Although this is something that was absent from the books published previously, the Jewish holy places in the country as such are still completely ignored.
The Jews are mentioned several times, mostly unfavorably, in historical contexts. When they are mentioned in the context of the present conflict, they are demonized as "Tartars", oppressors, slaughterers and as people who do not hesitate to shoot peaceful travelers on the road. No attempt is made to present them as human beings with rights and interests, national and other, of their own and the Jew as an individual is never discussed. The historical, national and religious connection of the Jewish people with Palestine is never mentioned. On the other hand, the mention of their "trickery", to be found in an earlier textbook, is omitted in a newer book when it refers to the same episode.
The tendency to ignore Israel as a sovereign state continues. Accordingly, Israel's name does not appear on any map. Moreover, some of the maps refer to the whole country as Palestine and Israeli cities and geographical sites are presented as Palestinian., The Palestinian Authority, however, unlike Israel, is referred to as an independent state.
Jerusalem is presented as an exclusively Arab city and as the capital of the State of Palestine. The Jews' presence there and their historical religious and national connections with it are not mentioned, except for a brief reference to its being holy to "the three monotheistic religions". Jerusalem is also personified as a suffering Arab entity.
There is a systematic effort in the textbooks to demonize Israel and the Israelis. The establishment of the State of Israel caused a catastrophe; Israel is an aggressive state; Israelis shoot civilians, demolish houses, "kill" cities and villages by expulsion and destruction, seize Palestinian land for the establishment of Jewish settlements and cause economic distress and environmental pollution and even bring about family violence among the Palestinians. A major theme is the Israeli occupation, but there are passages that in this context clearly refer to parts of Israel within the pre 1967 borders and not just to the West Bank and Gaza.
The blame for the refugee problem is placed exclusively on Israel. The only solution to the problem envisaged in the textbooks is the return of all the refugees to their former homes.
Tolerance is advocated towards followers of other religions, but, as in the earlier books published by the PNA, when it comes to a more detailed discussion, only relations between Muslims and Christians are addressed.
Peace, which is discussed in general terms, is a new phenomenon in Palestinian textbooks. Peace with Israel, the peace process and the Oslo Agreements on which it is based, however, are still not discussed.
The liberation of Palestine, on the other hand, is mentioned on three occasions, two of which refer by implication to the territory of Israel within the pre 1967 borders.
Jihad and martyrdom are prominent subjects in the textbooks. Both are praised and encouraged. Jihad's main purpose is making the Muslim nation strong and dreaded by its enemies. In one place martyrdom is portrayed as a wedding party.
Terror is formally rejected, which too is a new phenomenon, but such rejection basically turns on a question of definition and there are expressions indicating a positive attitude to members of the Palestinian armed organizations ("Fida'is") who also target civilians. Those of them who are jailed by Israel are called "prisoners-of-war".
It is worth noting that the PNA have now produced their own books, in place of the Jordanian and Egyptian books previously in use, for 50% of the school grades. The Palestinian school textbooks in the third round of their publication still do not comply with the criteria set by UNESCO. Although some new positive nuances are to be found in them, they do not contain a real commitment to peace and reconciliation with Israel.

 

[Adam]

The Maureen Meehan article: http://www.mideastjournal.com/israelitextbooks6.html

 

[Adam]

ISRAEL OR PALESTINE: WHO TEACHES WHAT HISTORY?

Part One:

A textbook case

The Israelis have withdrawn from the school curriculum a textbook giving a balanced view of the nation's history, only a few months after international media accused the Palestinian Authority of using anti-semitic schoolbooks. These did have omissions, but their real error was to refute Israel's version of Palestinian history.

By ELISA MORENA *

"There is no alternative to destroying Israel." This quote forms the banner headline of the website of the American lobby Jews for Truth Now (1). Last November and December this group published an insert in several American and Israeli papers featuring the slogan and giving as its source an encyclopaedia Our Country Palestine, mentioned in new Palestinian school textbooks for 11 year-olds (2). The lobby linked the intifada directly to "anti-semitic indoctrination" of Palestinian children from the earliest age. It also asked the United Nations to set up an international commission of enquiry into "racist teaching in Palestinian books, which also call for genocide".

The starting point for the controversy, which started last autumn at the time of the intifada, was a report by an American non-governmental organisation, The Centre for Monitoring the Impact of Peace (CMIP), entitled The New Palestinian Authority School Textbooks for Grades One and Six (3). The study claimed that the textbooks did not once try to teach peace and coexistence with Israel, rather the reverse. The conclusion, translated into numerous languages, was clear: the Palestinian Authority was instilling a culture of hate in its children that explained the fanaticism of the Palestinians.

Since the June 1967 war and the start of Israeli occupation schoolchildren in the West Bank and Gaza Strip have used Jordanian and Egyptian textbooks respectively, with modifications imposed by Israel which sought to eliminate anti-semitic and anti-Zionist references. In 1991, at the time of the Madrid conference, the Palestinians began the groundwork for the new ministries that came into being three years later with the setting up of the Palestinian Authority. Eighty Palestinians, from both the territories and the diaspora, started work on a first, unified Palestinian school curriculum for the West Bank and Gaza.

In 1994 this was one of the main concerns of the new deputy minister for education, Na'im Abul Hommos. "The educational system that we inherited was in a sorry state," he explained: "overcrowded classes, lack of teachers and antiquated textbooks dating from pre-1967, teaching Gaza children, for instance, about the greatness of the Egyptian kingdom and its 20m inhabitants [Egypt became a republic in 1953 and now has a population of 65m]."

Dozens of teachers and professionals from both public and private sectors were consulted and a new centre set up. Some Arab countries, such as Morocco, were invited to take part, as was Unesco. The result was a 700-page document which was put before the Palestinian legislative assembly and passed unanimously. In 1998 work began on the first textbooks for grades one and six, funded by a donation from Italy administered by the World Bank. The new books reached the schools last September; and all primary and secondary schools are due to receive them at a rate of two grades a year. In the meantime the old Jordanian and Egyptian books are still being used.

Legitimising Israel

Yohanan Manor, vice president of the CMIP, denies any links to the California-based Jews for Truth Now. He even says that the centre intends to sue the group for using the CMIP report ill-advisedly (the Jews for Truth Now website had a hyperlink to the report). Nonetheless the report uses the same quote as the lobby from Our Country Palestine: "There is no alternative to destroying Israel."

Palestinian ministry of education officials point out that the book cited in the CMIP report was written in 1947, before the state of Israel came into being. The CMIP replies that the book was revised in 1965 and that this later edition still carried the offending quote (which does not, however, appear in the school textbooks). Further enquiry shows that it is the 1947 edition that is mentioned in the Palestinian textbooks, and that it cannot therefore have been referring to the state of Israel, which did not come into being until 1948.

More broadly, the CMIP contends that the textbooks attempt to delegitimise Israel. But the quote in question has to do with the history of the conflict, the gradual Zionist takeover of Palestine between 1917 and 1948, the expulsion of the Palestinians, etc. The question is whether peace would mean that the Palestinians would have to give up their own approach to history and adopt one that presents the Zionist undertaking as legitimate. Should anyone who talks about the expulsion of the Palestinians - as many Israeli historians do - be suspected of "calling for genocide"? Can we really reproach the textbooks for glorifying Izz al-Din al-Qassam, one of the heroes of the Palestinian struggle in the 1930s, on the grounds that his name has been used by the military wing of Hamas?

Various omissions in the textbooks are more problematic. The CMIP report states that geography and national education textbooks for the sixth grade have maps of Palestine in which Israel is not shown, but only the towns of the West Bank and Gaza and those inside Israel which were once Palestinian (Jaffa, Haifa) or still are (Nazareth). Another map clearly shows the West Bank and Gaza Strip but leaves the position of Israel to the imagination. Furthermore the 1993 Oslo accords between Israel and the Palestine Liberation Organisation (PLO) are scarcely mentioned (especially on the subject of the PLO's return to Palestine).

Abul Hommos replies that Israel has even now failed to define its borders, which is why the ministry decided not to show them. But it is hard to understand why, with or without borders, the existence of the state of Israel is not indicated at all - even its name is absent. On the subject of the Oslo accords, Abul Hommos says: "They have meant nothing but deceit and frustration for Palestinians. Most of the Israeli redeployments did not take place and the building of settlements has never been so prolific. Do you want us to praise them?". But why, without praising the accords, did the Palestinians pass them over in almost total silence?

 

[Adam]

ISRAEL OR PALESTINE: WHO TEACHES WHAT HISTORY?

Part Two

Support dries up

The CMIP's own position on the issue of the Palestinian textbooks finally had its effect. Last December Italy - subject to strong parliamentary pressure in the midst of an election campaign - decided to stop funding the development of the Palestinian curriculum. The World Bank officially told the Palestinian ministry of education that the money destined for books for 7, 8, 12 and 14 year-olds, as well as for teacher training for these same years, would be allocated to other activities.

A chapter on tolerance in the textbook National Education destined for 11 year-olds also caused an outcry in Israel and beyond. One of its illustrations showed a Palestinian Christian and Muslim shaking hands. The CMIP deplored the absence of a Jew or Israeli in the illustration, arguing that Islam had historically offered protection to both Jews and Christians. The minister responded that the CMIP report failed to take into account that the book was intended, as its title showed, to register the national reality of a country in which Palestinians, Christian and Muslim, live.

Professor Ruth Firer, responsible for another study financed by the Truman Institute for the Advancement of Peace (4), refutes the accusations of her colleagues at the CMIP: "There is nothing unusual about this chapter; most of the world's school textbooks take a similar approach. It shows that the CMIP has no teaching experience and that its report was motivated by purely political considerations, designed to show that there can be no peace with the Palestinians."

She admits that the results of her research are not very different from that of the CMIP - in particular on the subject of the often glorified martyrs - but she distances herself from the CMIP's interpretation and the use made of it. "My research is on the portrayal of the Arab-Israeli conflict in schoolbooks used by both peoples since the end of the 19th century," she explains. "My aim is to show the representation of the "other" and to understand how and why it evolved. People are beginning to recognise Israeli responsibility for the Palestinian exodus but we've had to wait 50 years for it. This is the first time the Palestinians have been able to design their own books. It's not fair or intellectually honest to try and compare them to Israel's books."

Firer adds: "It's always easier for the occupier to show signs of generosity to the occupied than the reverse. The Israelis do not know the daily reality in the occupied territories and don't understand that the 1993 accords did not bring the Palestinians the promised prosperity." She remarks that "the new Palestinian schoolbooks have far fewer negatives stereotypes towards Jews and Israelis than the Jordanian and Egyptian textbooks previously used." Furthermore, she says, "until the 1960s Israeli textbooks were nothing but instruments of Zionist propaganda, full of racist clichés towards goyim [non-Jews] and even towards Oriental Jews; in addition they totally failed to take into account the existence of a Palestinian people." The present debate needs to be seen in this context of deep differences of perception and experience.

Though the CMIP's Yohanan Manor considers that Israeli textbooks are incomparably more conducive to coexistence than those of the Palestinians, he concedes that they are not perfect: "It's true that the textbooks generally used in ultra-orthodox schools sometimes contain shocking and racist passages about the Arabs" (5). He says that he has told the Israeli education minister about it. The remarks have, however, escaped general notice.

Dr Firer, trying to break the enduring stereotypes, is working with Palestinian colleagues on producing a schoolbook for 12 year-olds that has already been tested on both Israeli and Palestinian pupils; there is a separate version for each, but they are based on the same values. Naturally, she says, "these books won't appear until the political situation has been normalised." In the meantime she will continue to encourage cooperation between Palestinian and Israeli teachers: "For even if there was a peace accord between the politicians, it would take years to re-educate people and teach them to accept and tolerate each other."

This approach is very different from Manor's. "By signing the Oslo accords," he says, "the Palestinians and Israelis agreed to recognise each other's right to exist. It's unfortunate that Palestinian schoolbooks do not reflect this historic decision or recognise the legitimacy of Israel. This recognition is perhaps synonymous with suffering for them, but our own exile also represents suffering."

Abul Hommos replies: "We have developed and will go on producing books written by Palestinians for Palestinians, which aim to teach different subjects. They will be revised in the light of the reality we live in, whether it's scientific, cultural or political. Our books aren't the Koran, they are open to revision." He accuses the CMIP of being one-sided - a view shared by Ruth Firer. Itamar Marcus, research director of the CMIP report, is a well-known settler who lives in Efrat, an Israeli settlement built in 1982.

As for the 10 classes for whom textbooks have yet to be written, Abul Hommos hopes to find other foreign backing "provided we are not subjected to censure or interference, in which case we'll have to rely on our own finances". He says that each pupil has given five shekels (around $1) to the school curriculum development centre attached to his ministry, a symbolic gesture which will, however, enable it to go on running for a few more months. The centre, like all public-sector Palestinian institutions, is being suffocated by Israel's policy of closure and economic strangulation of the autonomous territories. Rather than any book, it is this strategy of repression that is widening the gap between Palestinians and Israelis.

----------------------------------------
* Journalist, Ramallah

(1) See Jews for Truth Now.

(2) Biladna Falastin, (Our Country Palestine), vol 1, by Palestinian historian and geographer Mustafa Mourad Dabbagh, 1947 edition revised in 1965 and 1988, Beirut.

(3) The New Palestinian Authority School Textbooks for Grades One and Six, Centre for Monitoring the Impact of Peace, November 2000, p 1. The CMIP published in 1998 a study of Palestinian school textbooks which influenced the decision to include education in the remit of the US-Israeli-Palestinian committee for combating incitement to violence during the drawing up of the Wye River memorandum of 23 October 1998 (paragraph 11-A-3-).

(4) The study, partly financed by Unesco and Unicef, was published in May by the Truman Institute for the Advancement of Peace, which is part of the Hebrew University of Jerusalem. It compares narratives of the Arab-Israeli conflict in Arab and Israeli textbooks since the end of the 19th century until the present date.

(5) In September 2000 the CMIP published a report entitled Arabs and Palestinians in Israeli Textbooks.

http://www.en.monde-diplomatique.fr/2001/07/11textbook

Translated by Wendy Kristianasen

http://www.mideastjournal.com/israelitextbooks1.html
http://www.en.monde-diplomatique.fr/2001/07/11textbook

 

[Adam]

For a comprehensive erport on education there, check out this site from Human Rights Watch: http://www.hrw.org/reports/2001/israel2/

Here is a collection of other articles: http://www.mideastjournal.com/textbookswars.html

"DEAR SOLDIER, PLEASE KILL A LOT OF ARABS": http://www.mideastjournal.com/israelitextbooks4.html

 

[Adam]

As for the CMIP report:

In the ultra-orthodox stream examples of prejudice, patronizing expressions and disrespect to Arabs can be found.

However, in some books in the ultra-orthodox network relations between Arabs and Jews are portrayed in negative terms.

Many history textbooks describe contacts and meetings between Jewish and Arab leaders from the beginning of the conflict, breaking the stereotype of an Arab world united in their opposition to the Zionism. Failure of these contacts is attributed to the Arabs. Only a few books provide the student with data on the Arab population from the beginning of Jewish immigration to Palestine in the late nineteenth century, until the establishment of the State of Israel in 1948. Complete statistics o n the Arab population are provided partially and sporadically when clashes or disturbances are described, leaving the pupil with a distorted impression of the Jews having been the majority since the beginning of their settlement.

There is a large variety of maps. Some maps describe accurately the distribution of Arab population in Palestine in different periods. Other maps, mostly in the ultra-orthodox network, illustrate Israel without mentioning the existence of Arabs, country.

The Arabs are presented as responsible for the outbreak of all the wars.

http://www.edume.org/reports/5/1.htm

And here we have terms used in Israeli textbooks to describe Palestinians and Arabs in general: http://www.edume.org/reports/5/3.htm

You can see more of it here: http://www.edume.org/reports/5/toc.htm

 

[Adam]

Strange, Adam...
Living in Australia, you probably know about
Israeli school textbooks more than me...
It's just that, I've been trying to remember
Israeli school books which portray arabs as
evil murderers and couldn't remember any.
Then again, I've only studied in an Israeli school
starting from the fourth grade, maybe it was
during the first 3 years that I missed.

So you an Israeli who attended Israeli schools? Do you consider your own opinion unbiased? I don't know, perhaps you have no bias. What do you think? Could you perhaps scan your textbooks, do some OCR and post them on the net as webpages? That would be helpful.

Anyway, the best part, is that you consider
information coming from an organization that
accepts Iran and the US as having an equal status
(security council excluded) and allows both to equally
affect that information - a fully trustworthy source.

Why should Iran and the US not have equal rights? Do you have something against Iran?

UN information is fitted for UN policy, UN policy
is fitted for UN members majority,

So... democracy is wrong?

UN members
majority on questions concerning Israel comes
from a multitude of always one-sided Arab and
Muslim countries

Arab and Muslim countries' views are "always one-sided" eh? Right. I guess that shows what your bias is.

countries (like those of the EU)
that care about their own economical and political relations
with the Arab and Muslim countries a lot more than some
tiny injustices they do

"Arab and Muslim countries" are unjust? Right.

 

[kat]

Your CMIP report is an older report. Why not post the latest report? Where CMIP stated "Despite the deterioration in the conflict between Israel and the Palestinians since September 2000, no negative changes were noted in the new textbooks with regard to the image of the Arabs, the description of the conflict, the presentation of Islam, questions of war and peace and education to tolerance and conciliation. On the contrary, the positive trends noted in the earlier report have, if anything, been strengthened."

 

[Adam]

Because the newer report is for textbooks introduced in the past couple of years. It doesn't apply to anyone over about eight years old. Everyone else learned what is described from the other reports.

 

[studentx]

Did the nazis change their schoolbooks defending the jews before the genocide and deportations? Nope, , they did exactly the opposite.
Again, prove that what the Israelis are doing is the same as what the nazis did, or apologize to mr Drag.

 

[drag]

Medeastjournal ? Hmm...
Quote:
"I am Baha(Arabic for splendor) and this is my personal political online journal."
The Internet is such a great place, you always find what you seek...

P.S. I even found some people who payed money for registering
warp technology patents on the US Patent Office site...

 

[drag]

Did the nazis change their schoolbooks defending the jews before the genocide and deportations? Nope, , they did exactly the opposite.
Again, prove that what the Israelis are doing is the same as what the nazis did, or apologize to mr Drag.

No need, were're not on a personal basis here.
Furthermore, I have no difficulty to understand such
opionions because I understand their causes.

 

[balkan]

amazing... going on 5 pages and only kat and adam has provided anything that wasn't subjective...
somebody should frame this thread and put it on display somewhere...

 

[Adam]

Did the nazis change their schoolbooks defending the jews before the genocide and deportations? Nope, , they did exactly the opposite.
Again, prove that what the Israelis are doing is the same as what the nazis did, or apologize to mr Drag.

Studentx, please read through this entire thread again. Carefully.

 

[Adam]

amazing... going on 5 pages and only kat and adam has provided anything that wasn't subjective...
somebody should frame this thread and put it on display somewhere...

I find it strange that a message board devoted primarily to fields requiring education is usually composed mostly of personal opinions. Generally I don't apply my own opinions, as I don't wish to increase that proportion. I usually prefer to simply supply data found here and there, and let people read it, but unfortunately they most often don't bother even reading it. People prefer to cling to assumptions and delusions. I am glad, however, that Kat actually joined me in supplying something other than a subjective opinion. It's a good start.

 

[loseyourname]

Israel is doing today what Germany did in the approach to WW2.

Whether or not this is your opinion I could care less, but it is certainly not a fact.

Again:

- Israel has not arrested all Palestinians everywhere in Israel and put them in ghettos.

- There are no forced-labor camps in Israel.

- All Palestinian businesses and assets have not been confiscated.

- Jews in Germany did not carry out terrorist attacks on German civilians. They did occasionally defend themselves after being forced into ghettos and being sent away to death camps by attacking military targets. To compare the two is ridiculous.

(These are all facts)

Now if you can hold back from insulting my intelligence for half a second, listen. The Palestinians and Israelis are both to blame in this conflict. I'm not trying to excuse any trespasses committed by the Israeli state. But it is ridiculous of you to suggest that Israel today is akin to Germany in the 30's. You do no service to the Palestinian people by misrepresenting their case.

 

[Adam]

Whether or not this is your opinion I could care less, but it is certainly not a fact.

Clearly you care enough to post a response, even if it is mere opinion and not backed up by facts.

- Israel has not arrested all Palestinians everywhere in Israel and put them in ghettos.

Nor had the NAZIs arrested all Jews everywhere and put them in ghettos.

- There are no forced-labor camps in Israel.

Yet.

- All Palestinian businesses and assets have not been confiscated.

Yet.

Now, in answer to the above three almost-points, I urge you to simply think about it. Ethnic cleansing is not an event. It is a process. Palestinians are being moved, portion by portion, into ghettos. They assets are being taken, piece by piece. Slowly, they are becoming an underclass, for most of whom only the most menial labour is available. As I said, it is not an instantaneous event, but a process. It is happening. The material I have provided demonstrates this quite clearly. I recommend you take the time to read it. You may learn something.

- Jews in Germany did not carry out terrorist attacks on German civilians. They did occasionally defend themselves after being forced into ghettos and being sent away to death camps by attacking military targets. To compare the two is ridiculous.

Ah, yeah they did. I have already provided information about this. Go back and read it. To continue arguing this point without reading the available information is to blindly argue from ignorance. Just read it.

Now if you can hold back from insulting my intelligence for half a second,

Insult what?

The Palestinians and Israelis are both to blame in this conflict.

The blame rests not on "Palestinians" at all, but on a small few of them, and also on the state of Israel.

But it is ridiculous of you to suggest that Israel today is akin to Germany in the 30's.

Please read the supplied material.

 

[hello3719]

LOL, Building a wall... reminds me of my kindergarden years. This is the most ridiculous and most retarded thing to do.This wall wil bring more problems and more anger among the Palestinians. Humans never learn from history, this is very sad. One might wonder if our leaders do really have brains and a conscience.

 

[drag]

I loved that exchange between Balkan and Adam, real funny,
I mean it...

I mean, this is like me arguing fevereshly about , say - what do you have
in Australia ? Environmental problems ?
I'd hear what Adam, for example, has to say, and then load him with Internet links that says totally different things (you can always find such things) - then it turns out I know better, while being half a world away.
Funny, isn't it ?

Links ? Fine:
http://www.yale.edu/yup/chapters/093454chap.htm
http://www.mfa.gov.il/mfa/go.asp?MFAH0kv40
http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/Peace/patext.html
http://www.israel-wat.com/g7a_eng.htm
http://ksghome.harvard.edu/~.jstern.CSIA.KSG/pakistan.htm
http://www.likud.nl/extr253.html
http://www.google.co.il/search?q=Indonesia+Jihad+education&hl=iw&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&start=10&sa=N
http://www.freeworldacademy.com/globalleader/newwarcontent.htm
http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorist_attack
http://www.mfa.gov.il/mfa/go.asp?MFAH0ldc0
http://www.mfa.gov.il/mfa/go.asp?MFAH0cc40
http://www.mfa.gov.il/mfa/go.asp?MFAH0ia50
http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorism_against_Israel_in_2000
http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorism_against_Israel_in_2001
http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorism_against_Israel_in_2002
http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorism_against_Israel_in_2003
http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorism_against_Israel_in_2003
http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kenyan_hotel_bombing
http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passover_Massacre

 

[drag]

LOL, Building a wall... reminds me of my kindergarden years. This is the most ridiculous and most retarded thing to do.This wall wil bring more problems and more anger among the Palestinians. Humans never learn from history, this is very sad. One might wonder if our leaders do really have brains and a conscience.

Did someone blow up and murder your kindergarden peers ?

 

[hello3719]

no... i meant the wall

 

[Adam]

I loved that exchange between Balkan and Adam, real funny,
I mean it...

I mean, this is like me arguing fevereshly about , say - what do you have
in Australia ? Environmental problems ?
I'd hear what Adam, for example, has to say, and then load him with Internet links that says totally different things (you can always find such things) - then it turns out I know better, while being half a world away.
Funny, isn't it ?

Links ? Fine:
http://www.yale.edu/yup/chapters/093454chap.htm
http://www.mfa.gov.il/mfa/go.asp?MFAH0kv40
http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/Peace/patext.html
http://www.israel-wat.com/g7a_eng.htm
http://ksghome.harvard.edu/~.jstern.CSIA.KSG/pakistan.htm
http://www.likud.nl/extr253.html
http://www.google.co.il/search?q=Indonesia+Jihad+education&hl=iw&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&start=10&sa=N
http://www.freeworldacademy.com/globalleader/newwarcontent.htm
http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorist_attack
http://www.mfa.gov.il/mfa/go.asp?MFAH0ldc0
http://www.mfa.gov.il/mfa/go.asp?MFAH0cc40
http://www.mfa.gov.il/mfa/go.asp?MFAH0ia50
http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorism_against_Israel_in_2000
http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorism_against_Israel_in_2001
http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorism_against_Israel_in_2002
http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorism_against_Israel_in_2003
http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorism_against_Israel_in_2003
http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kenyan_hotel_bombing
http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passover_Massacre

Those who bothered reading and learning will note that the links I posted lead to relevant information. You, drag, posted links about Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, a university book store, and other unrelated material. Your method of response is quite clearly "I won't read your material, but I will hopefully get people to ignore all the information you supplied by posting a huge number of irrelevant links. The sheer volume of rubbish links I post will miraculously negate all the information contained in your links." This, however, is not only illogical, but childish, ridiculous, and rather pathetic.

Unlike you, I have provided links to pages which quote Israeli textbooks.
Unlike you, I have provided links to pages with photographic evidence.
Unlike you, I have provided links to information from international organisations such as Human Rights Watch and the UN.

As we saw in an earlier post from you, in your post about "Arab and Muslim countries", your words carry a very clear anti-Arab bias. Try to avoid these personal exhortations. Stick to the facts.

 

[Prometheus]

Stick to the facts.

Adam, I quite agree that drag should stick to your facts.

On a personal note, I wonder why you use a moniker that has such extreme Jewish connotations. Are you Jewish, or did you select it for some particular reason?

 

[flippy]

First of all, the wall is not attacking anyone. It is a means of protection because the Palestinian are bombing civilians. The only time the Israeli's kill Palestinians is when THE ARMY needs to kill a terrorist which in turn potentially saves the lives of many more innocent people. I find it humorous how Adam can be brainwashed by the media. He falls right into the trap of the liberals who prey on the ignorant. My source of fact comes from experience. You see, I actually lived in Israel for a year and saw first hand what went on. I had friends that were in the areas of suicide bombings and had to be treated for shock. I know someone else who was shot and had like a 2% chance of survival. For what? Going to school there? This is clearly not a war over land, in fact the real "palestinians" are long assimilated into other nations. As for Muslims, they have plenty of land surrounding Israel. They hand plenty of chances to get their land back, barak had offered them, peres did. I know what it feels like to get on a bus and have the thought in my mind that I could be blown up. This wall at least can alleviate some of the anxiety of people living their everyday lives. BTW there are still many more walls that exist in teh world..India and Pakistan...The US and Mexico, walls don't create conflict, they minimize threat. And if youre going to get ur news from biased freelance journalists looking to brainwash you with their opinions and only present one side of the story, I can assure you that from my first hand experience actually living in the midst of it, that the press is unreliable and inaccurate and you better find a new source for your fictitious "facts."

 

[balkan]

Nor had the NAZIs arrested all Jews everywhere and put them in ghettos.

Yet.

Yet.

Now, in answer to the above three almost-points, I urge you to simply think about it. Ethnic cleansing is not an event. It is a process. Palestinians are being moved, portion by portion, into ghettos. They assets are being taken, piece by piece. Slowly, they are becoming an underclass, for most of whom only the most menial labour is available. As I said, it is not an instantaneous event, but a process. It is happening. The material I have provided demonstrates this quite clearly. I recommend you take the time to read it. You may learn something.

Please read the supplied material.

note those "yet" you have written... the "yet" is obvious proof that israel haven't done like the germans did...
whether or not they intend to, is a matter of oppinion and very hard to back up by facts... personally i think both sides are to blame equally (it's no use rubbing in the past about the israeli occupation and demolition of palestinian homes, since we only have the present to work in) and I'm quite sure the israeli government and a great part of the population, wish to totally remove any non-jewish prescense in the area... this oppinion is based on the actions and coarses they have chosen... just the simple fact that the madman sharon is still in charge says alot...

 

[studentx]

Adam you still haven't answered my question. The nazis did not change their schoolbooks before the genocide, the Israelis do, so what's up with that?
Your comparison of Israelis to Nazis is an extremely upsetting remark, one that deteriorates the conflict and brings nothing constructive, so many here rightfully wonder what is the point you are making and why are you making it? To rally support for the Israelis? This is all that youve done in this thread, and i can't let you rape the palestinian cause like this any longer. It has to end here.

 

[Hurkyl]

I forgot to invoke Godwin's law.

 

[Robert Zaleski]

I forgot to invoke Godwin's law.

And the word 'conservative' dictates the duration.

 

[Adam]

Adam, I quite agree that drag should stick to your facts.

Are you implying that the Omnipotent Adam created the UN website, among others?

On a personal note, I wonder why you use a moniker that has such extreme Jewish connotations. Are you Jewish, or did you select it for some particular reason?

Actually the name is older than the first point at which the Jewish tribe is identified as a sociological entity (around 1200 BC).

 

[Adam]

The only time the Israeli's kill Palestinians is when THE ARMY needs to kill a terrorist which in turn potentially saves the lives of many more innocent people.

You're joking, yes? The IDF has killed thrice the number of civilians that Palestinian terrorists have killed in the past three years. Please read the pages to which I have linked. I mean it. READ THEM! It can only do you good.

I find it humorous how Adam can be brainwashed by the media. He falls right into the trap of the liberals who prey on the ignorant.

Well, there's an assertion. Now what about the basis?

My source of fact comes from experience. You see, I actually lived in Israel for a year and saw first hand what went on.

I've lived most of my life around Melbourne, Australia. Do you suppose that means I know all about the Hoddle Street bombing? Does it mean I know the name and motive of the guy responsible? Does it mean I know how many people Victorian police have shot, and why, and how it was reported?

I had friends that were in the areas of suicide bombings and had to be treated for shock. I know someone else who was shot and had like a 2% chance of survival.

I know a dog who was hit by a car.

This is clearly not a war over land, in fact the real "palestinians" are long assimilated into other nations.

Well, there's an assertion. Now what about the basis?

As for Muslims, they have plenty of land surrounding Israel.

Are you suggesting that religion and geography are so linked that we should have Muslims in Area A, Jews in Area B, Christians in Area C, et cetera?

They hand plenty of chances to get their land back, barak had offered them, peres did.

Please read the links I have provided, particularly those regarding the history of the situation.

I know what it feels like to get on a bus and have the thought in my mind that I could be blown up.

Some people are scared of spiders. What do your personal fears have to do with anything?

This wall at least can alleviate some of the anxiety of people living their everyday lives. BTW there are still many more walls that exist in teh world..India and Pakistan...The US and Mexico, walls don't create conflict, they minimize threat.

Yeah, because India and Pakistan get along so well...

And if youre going to get ur news from biased freelance journalists looking to brainwash you with their opinions and only present one side of the story, I can assure you that from my first hand experience actually living in the midst of it, that the press is unreliable and inaccurate and you better find a new source for your fictitious "facts."

News.com.au, the BBC, the UN, the Washington Post, et cetera, are all "biased freelance journalists"? Sorry chum, but you really need to think a little. Read the information supplied. Think about the situation without your fear-driven bias. Then come back.

 

[Adam]

note those "yet" you have written... the "yet" is obvious proof that israel haven't done like the germans did...

Go back to Germany in 1937. The NAZIs hadn't done the ovens at Auschwitz... yet. However, they were in the process of moving toward those things. Right now, Israel is engaged in ethnic cleansing. That is already happening. The IDF is already shooting Palestinian civilians all over the place. That is already happening. The segregation is a process, as I said, not an event, and it is happening. As I said, these are processes, not events, and they are processes which existed in Germany in the 1930s.

just the simple fact that the madman sharon is still in charge says alot...

It does indeed.

 

[Adam]

Adam you still haven't answered my question. The nazis did not change their schoolbooks before the genocide, the Israelis do, so what's up with that?

Is the ethnic cleansing still going on in Israel? Yes. Public access material provided by, or openly authorised by, the Israeli government is window dressing, and we can expect it to be all fluff and dandy. The situation will get worse, however. Just as Germany published lots of happy news, and told people everything was going great, while sinking the country deeper and deeper into crap.

Your comparison of Israelis to Nazis is an extremely upsetting remark,

Your emotional responses are caused by your own mind, and have nothing to do with me.

one that deteriorates the conflict and brings nothing constructive,

The dissemination of information is constructive.

so many here rightfully wonder what is the point you are making and why are you making it?

1) By what right do you speak for anyone else? Did you take a poll to find out how many wonder as you assert?

2) As I have stated so many times, I am providing information, which can be read and considered by those with some measure of respect for reality. Those who are driven by ignorance and fear will refuse to read and consider the information, and will leap to conclusions and shout about brainwashing and bigotry. Feel free to read the information or not, as you wish.

To rally support for the Israelis?

When did I ever attack the Israelies, or support them?

It has to end here.

Pfft.

 

[Prometheus]

Are you implying that the Omnipotent Adam created the UN website, among others?

Nice try. I am implying that you are making your opinion known, and that your opinion is not very popular here. You sound like you believe that your opinion is cut and dried fact. You do not seem to be aware that your opinion is an opinion.

Actually the name is older than the first point at which the Jewish tribe is identified as a sociological entity (around 1200 BC).

Do you have a citation for this as well? Adam was not a name originally, of course. It is a Semitic reference to the origin of mankind.

 

[Adam]

Nice try. I am implying that you are making your opinion known, and that your opinion is not very popular here. You sound like you believe that your opinion is cut and dried fact. You do not seem to be aware that your opinion is an opinion.

You asserted that the posts I have made thus far were my opinion only, and that I was presenting them as facts. I pointed out that I have provided information from the UN, news resources, Human Rights Watch, and other sources. I have not yet provided my personal opinion. Nice try.

Do you have a citation for this as well? Adam was not a name originally, of course. It is a Semitic reference to the origin of mankind.

Believe it or not, the languages of the current peoples of the Middle East did not spontaneously erupt one day. They evolved from other tongues, such as Akkadian, Phoenician, Sumerian, et cetera. The word "adam" seems to mean "earth" or such, and has been used in various forms in the Middle East for a very long time; yes, even predating the Israelites. One find in Syria contains tablets going back to the fourth millennium BC; one tablet there has the word "adamu" (though not in English script of course). There is the Akkadian "admu", meaning "child". Phoenician "dm", meaning "man". A dialect of Arabic has it meaning "servant". Basically, the word may come from many sources, and many of those sources have intertwined histories.

So no, it is not originally a Semitic reference to the origin of mankind.

Oh, as for the citation part: read a book. Not a religious one, but a real book, with real information. You could try the Collins Dictionary of Archaeology, page 282. You could try Encyclopedia Britannica, or Funk & Wagnall's, or any other encyclopedia. Or a history textbook might be a good place to start. Give it a try some day.

 

[Adam]

More information.

Below is a partial list of UN resolutions vetoed by the US since 1972:

--------------------------------------------------

1972 Israel condemned for killing hundreds of people in Syria and Lebanon in air raids.

1973 Israel to withdraw from the occupied territories.

1976 Israel condemned for attacking Lebanese civilians and building settlements in the occupied territories. Call for Palestinian self-determination.

1978 Permanent members of the security council to ensure UN decisions on the maintenance of international peace and security. Living conditions of the Palestinians criticised. Israeli human rights record condemned. Developed countries to increase aid to developing countries.

1979 End to all military and nuclear collaboration with apartheid. Arms embargo against South Africa to be strengthened. Support for the oppressed under apartheid.

Cessation of the nuclear arms race. Return of all inhabitants expelled by Israel. Israel to desist from human rights violations. Inquiry into the living conditions of Palestinians in occupied territories. Protection of developing countries' exports. Push to improve human rights and fundamental freedoms.

Opposition to intervention in the internal or external affairs of states. Call for a UN conference on women. Rights of developing countries in multinational trade talks to be safeguarded.

1980 Israel to return displaced persons. Israeli human rights practices in occupied territories condemned. Right of self determination for the Palestinians. Support for the oppressed people of South Africa. New international economic order to promote the growth of underdeveloped countries. Programme of action for UN Decade for Women. Non-use of nuclear weapons against non-nuclear states. Development of nations and individuals is a human right. Cessation of all nuclear test explosions. Independence for colonial countries.

1981 Promotion of cooperative movements in developing countries. Right of every state to choose its economic and social system, without outside interference.

Cessation of all test explosions of nuclear weapons. Measures to prevent nuclear war and curb the arms race. Negotiations to prohibit chemical and biological weapons. Education, work, health care, etc, are human rights.

South Africa condemned for attacks on neighbouring states and apartheid. Attempted coup by South Africa in the Seychelles condemned. Israel's treatment of the Palestinians, human rights policies and its bombing of Iraq condemned.

1982 Israeli invasion of Lebanon condemned. Shooting of 11 Muslims at a shrine in Jerusalem by an Israeli soldier condemned.

Israel must withdraw from the Golan Heights. Apartheid condemned. Setting up of a world charter for ecological protection.

Support for a new world information and communications order. Prohibition of chemical and bacteriological weapons. Development of international law. Protection against products harmful to health and the environment. Development of energy resources of developing countries.

1983 Fifteen resolutions about apartheid, nuclear arms, economics and international law.

1984 South African policies in Namibia condemned. International action to eliminate apartheid. Israeli occupation of southern Lebanon condemned. Eighteen resolutions about apartheid, nuclear arms, economics, international law.

1985 Israeli occupation of southern Lebanon condemned. Excessive Israeli force in the occupied territories condemned. Three resolutions about cooperation, human rights, trade and development.

Action against Nazi, fascist and neo-fascist activities.

1986 All governments to observe international law.

Economic and military sanctions against South Africa. Israeli actions against Lebanese civilians condemned. Israel to respect Muslim holy places. Israeli sky-jacking of Libyan airliner condemned. Eight resolutions about cooperation, security, human rights, etc.

1987 Israel to abide by the Geneva conventions in its treatment of the Palestinians. Israel to stop deporting Palestinians. Israeli actions in Lebanon condemned. Israel to withdraw its forces from Lebanon. Cooperation between the UN and the League of Arab States. Prevention of international terrorism.

Opposition to the build up of weapons in space. Opposition to the development of new weapons of mass destruction. Opposition to nuclear testing.

Proposal to set up South Atlantic "zone of peace".

1988 Israeli practices against Palestinians in the occupied territories condemned.

1989 US invasion of Panama condemned. US support for the contras in Nicaragua condemned. Illegal US embargo of Nicaragua condemned. Acquisition of territory by force opposed. Resolution to the Arab-Israeli conflict.

1990 UN to send observers to the occupied territories.

1995 Land in east Jerusalem annexed by Israel is occupied territory.

1997 Israel must cease building settlements in east Jerusalem and other occupied territories.

1999 US to end trade embargo on Cuba.

2001 UN to send unarmed monitors to the West Bank and the Gaza Strip. UN to set up the international criminal court.

2002 UN to renew the peace keeping mission in Bosnia.

--------------------------------------------------

In December 2002, the US blocked a draft resolution criticising the killing by Israeli forces of several United Nations employees and the destruction of the World Food Programme warehouse in the West Bank.

In total, the US has blocked 36 draft resolutions on Israel.

THE VETO RECORD

USSR/Russia: 120 vetoes. Only two vetoes since the collapse of the Soviet Union
US: 77 vetoes. Blocked 36 resolutions criticising Israel.
UK: 32 vetoes, 23 times with the US. All solo UK vetoes on Zimbabwe
France: 18 vetoes, 13 with the US and UK
China: 5 vetoes

--------------------------------------------------

Sources:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,3604,917834,00.html
http://www.guardian.co.uk/print/0,3858,4629052-103681,00.html
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/2828985.stm
http://newsvote.bbc.co.uk/mpapps/pagetools/print/news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/2828985.stm
http://www.globalpolicy.org/unitedstates/unpolicy/gen2003/0115us.htm
http://www.globalpolicy.org/security/veto/2002/1223israel.htm

 

[Adam]

Rachel Corrie's diary: http://www.guardian.co.uk/g2/story/0,3604,916246,00.html

 

[hello3719]

only to be sure, does adam mean "first blood" ?

 

[Adam]

"Adrianne!"

 

[Prometheus]

Believe it or not, the languages of the current peoples of the Middle East did not spontaneously erupt one day.

Is this your typical condescending attitude? Or, are you trying your best to offer me your special insults with this foolish gibberish? This statement is uncalled for, it is unrelated to our discussion, and it is a feeble attempt to initiate your response with an insult. Shame on you.

Give it a try some day.

And you wonder why people on this forum think so little of your ideas and your attitude. How blind can you be?

They evolved from other tongues, such as Akkadian, Phoenician, Sumerian, et cetera. The word "adam" seems to mean "earth" or such, and has been used in various forms in the Middle East for a very long time; yes, even predating the Israelites. One find in Syria contains tablets going back to the fourth millennium BC; one tablet there has the word "adamu" (though not in English script of course). There is the Akkadian "admu", meaning "child". Phoenician "dm", meaning "man". A dialect of Arabic has it meaning "servant". Basically, the word may come from many sources, and many of those sources have intertwined histories.

So no, it is not originally a Semitic reference to the origin of mankind.

Your numeous citations here are evidence that you do have some ability. Your citations in prior posts are evidence to the same. It is your conclusions that are so poor, in my opinion. You draw conclusions that are not necessarily consistent with the facts.

Your citations do not support your conclusion in this case. You use the word "seems" and then subsequently treat this supposition as fact.

The consonantal root dm relates to blood and to red, which is the color of blood. Adamah, a related form, means the Earth in Hebrew. The Earth in question was red clay, from which mankind was considered to have sprung. The a in adam is the first letter of the alphabet. This refers to the first. Adam means the first blood, the first of mankind, who arose from red clay that makes up the eath in that region.

I consider that what I have said here does not refute any of the evidence that you presented. However, it does refute your conclusion, which is not at all based on your own evidence.

You have access to valuable information in the posts that you have made. Yet, your conclusions at times verge on the ridiculous. Your foolish attempts to insult those who question you do not increase your reputation.

 

[Adam]

Is this your typical condescending attitude? Or, are you trying your best to offer me your special insults with this foolish gibberish? This statement is uncalled for, it is unrelated to our discussion, and it is a feeble attempt to initiate your response with an insult. Shame on you.

Take a pill and relax, Dave. If you don't want me to outline very clearly what should be obvious, then don't make silly mistakes like the one to which I replied.

And you wonder why people on this forum think so little of your ideas and your attitude. How blind can you be?

Actually I hadn't thought about it at all. I have no idea what the majority of users think of my posts, and I don't really care a lot. Most people are idiots, but most are also nice people. I don't expect everyone out there to be capable of reading information without emotional bias, and absorbing it at face value. I wish they would, but I don't expect it. Now that you mention it, however, did you take a poll regarding the opinions of other users here? If so, please provide me with the link to that thread, I'll check it out. If not, then I guess you are being very silly.

Your numeous citations here are evidence that you do have some ability.

Well, gee, do you think?

It is your conclusions that are so poor, in my opinion. You draw conclusions that are not necessarily consistent with the facts.

Name a conclusion of mine whch is inconsistent with the facts. Demostrate this.

Your citations do not support your conclusion in this case. You use the word "seems" and then subsequently treat this supposition as fact.

The one fact I outlined is that the word "adam" existed prior to its use in a certain mythological use regarding the origin of the species. It is a very old word. The "seems" and "appears" refer to possible uses in earlier times. So... what's your point?

The consonantal root dm relates to blood and to red, which is the color of blood. Adamah, a related form, means the Earth in Hebrew. The Earth in question was red clay, from which mankind was considered to have sprung. The a in adam is the first letter of the alphabet. This refers to the first. Adam means the first blood, the first of mankind, who arose from red clay that makes up the eath in that region.

I consider that what I have said here does not refute any of the evidence that you presented. However, it does refute your conclusion, which is not at all based on your own evidence.

You appear to be imagining things that aren't there. My conclusion was only this: the word is older than the Hebrew language, older than the mythological use which you mentioned. The use you mentioned is one historical instance of a similar word, but certainly not the earliest. What is it you think you have refuted?

You have access to valuable information in the posts that you have made. Yet, your conclusions at times verge on the ridiculous.

Which conclusions?

Your foolish attempts to insult those who question you do not increase your reputation.

Um... Please read this quote of yours again...

 

[Hurkyl]

Most people are idiots, but most are also nice people. I don't expect everyone out there to be capable of reading information without emotional bias, and absorbing it at face value.

Assuming you are correct, then alienating them will only strengthen their bias, making them even less likely to absorb it at face value. And quite honestly, I seriously consider this to be a possible motive for your posting style.

 

[Adam]

Assuming you are correct, then alienating them will only strengthen their bias, making them even less likely to absorb it at face value. And quite honestly, I seriously consider this to be a possible motive for your posting style.

I am quite honest and straightforward. I do not hide my motives. It's not my fault if most people aren't very bright. It's just the way the world is. I'm not going to dumb-down my posts to suit others. They can simply read the information supplied and work a little. And if I refer to them as less than brilliant, it does not mean I don't like them. Most of my friends here are rather stupid, but they're ok people, and I have fun with them.

I have a style?

 

[loseyourname]

Clearly you care enough to post a response, even if it is mere opinion and not backed up by facts.

I meant I don't care if its your opinion or not, not that I don't care about the topic. Sorry for the ambiguous sentence.

Nor had the NAZIs arrested all Jews everywhere and put them in ghettos.

They did by the start of the war. They certainly tried, at least. The official state policy was that Jews were subhuman and had no rights. The policy of Israel is nothing like that. Palestinians are still acknowledged as human beings with rights, legally speaking.

Yet. Yet.

Which is all I said. If you go back to the first page of this thread, you will find yourself saying "Israel is doing today what Germany did in the approach to WW2." If all you mean is that Israel has done several things that Germany did in the 30's, well so be it. So is the United States. It seemed clear to me that you are implying Israel means to perpetrate a holocaust against the Palestinians, which is not true.

Now, in answer to the above three almost-points, I urge you to simply think about it. Ethnic cleansing is not an event. It is a process. Palestinians are being moved, portion by portion, into ghettos. They assets are being taken, piece by piece. Slowly, they are becoming an underclass, for most of whom only the most menial labour is available. As I said, it is not an instantaneous event, but a process. It is happening. The material I have provided demonstrates this quite clearly. I recommend you take the time to read it. You may learn something.

I'm not going to read any of it. I'm already aware of most of what Israel has done. I imagine you are probably somewhat better informed than I on this particular subject, and that is fine. I don't dispute that Israel is doing things it shouldn't be doing, nor do I dispute that there are similarities between measures taken today and the measures taken against Jews by Nazi Germany. There still remains one major difference.

Ah, yeah they did. I have already provided information about this. Go back and read it. To continue arguing this point without reading the available information is to blindly argue from ignorance. Just read it.

Everything you provided, that I read, was an example of Jews defending themselves against Nazi attempts to send them away. Please provide me evidence showing that Jews in Germany carried out terrorist attacks on German civilians over a period of several decades and then we can compare the respective nations responses.

Insult what?

Is the second half of that sentence blank on your screen or do you honestly just think this is clever?

The blame rests not on "Palestinians" at all, but on a small few of them, and also on the state of Israel.

Thank you. I agree 100%. In Germany in the 30's, on the other hand, blame rested entirely on the Nazi regime.

Please read the supplied material.

You know, believe it or not, some of us don't have the time to read ten news sources and go scouring the net every day. Some of us have jobs and school and girlfriends and hobbies and interests. I'll get to it if I have a chance, but no promises.

 

[loseyourname]

Let me clarify. Obviously I can't say for certain the Israel is not planning a holocaust on the Palestinian people, but it is a safe bet they are not. Several reasons at least:

- They would not be able to. The Jews in Nazi Germany had no organized resistance nor any foreign support, whereas the Palestinians have both.

- The US would withdraw its support if they did. There would be no choice.

- Israel has no interest in doing this. All Israel wants to do is partition the nation. It wants to clearly define Palestinian land and keep them confined to this land. Whatever the motive for this, it doesn't amount to a desire to see an entire ethnic group wiped off the face of the planet.

 

[Adam]

They did by the start of the war. They certainly tried, at least. The official state policy was that Jews were subhuman and had no rights. The policy of Israel is nothing like that. Palestinians are still acknowledged as human beings with rights, legally speaking.

Barely.
http://www.news24.com/News24/World/News/0,,2-10-1462_1559424,00.html
http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/story.jsp?story=429490
http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?SectionID=22&ItemID=3989
http://www.breakingnews.ie/2004/07/18/story157604.html
http://abcnews.go.com/wire/World/ap20040713_637.html

Which is all I said. If you go back to the first page of this thread, you will find yourself saying "Israel is doing today what Germany did in the approach to WW2." If all you mean is that Israel has done several things that Germany did in the 30's, well so be it. So is the United States. It seemed clear to me that you are implying Israel means to perpetrate a holocaust against the Palestinians, which is not true.

I meant precisely what I said. Israel is doing today many things which Germany did in the years leading up to WW2, along the lines of persecuting large numbers of people based on their ethnicity. Their ethnic cleansing activities mirror very closely what Germany was doing prior to WW2.

I'm not going to read any of it. I'm already aware of most of what Israel has done.

Well, that is good. It improves my day to think that some people, at least, are aware of what is happening around them.

I don't dispute that Israel is doing things it shouldn't be doing, nor do I dispute that there are similarities between measures taken today and the measures taken against Jews by Nazi Germany. There still remains one major difference.

The difference: Time. If things go badly. I hope things do not go badly.

Everything you provided, that I read, was an example of Jews defending themselves against Nazi attempts to send them away.

Did you read the pages about organised Jewish resistance groups striking factories and such throughout WW2?

Please provide me evidence showing that Jews in Germany carried out terrorist attacks on German civilians over a period of several decades and then we can compare the respective nations responses.

Why several decades? I have provided information about it occurring over several years during WW2. Why would the period extend beyond the start and end of the NAZI regime? As for whether the attacks mentioned qualify as "terrorism", well, to me, it's when people deliberately attack civilians as a means of fighting a war or furthering some political, religious, or other such cause.

Is the second half of that sentence blank on your screen or do you honestly just think this is clever?

Start posting relevant information then, and maybe I'll revise my opinion.

Thank you. I agree 100%. In Germany in the 30's, on the other hand, blame rested entirely on the Nazi regime.

I also blame as filthy murdering scum every terrorist/resistance group which ever deliberately attacked and harmed civilians. Same goes for the bomber pilots and generals who destroyed Dresden and London and so many other civilian population centres.

You know, believe it or not, some of us don't have the time to read ten news sources and go scouring the net every day. Some of us have jobs and school and girlfriends and hobbies and interests. I'll get to it if I have a chance, but no promises.

I have two jobs, and some hobbies. No girlfriend at the moment. Hard to find one who can put up with me. However, I feel the need to know what is happening in the world, thus I normally watch three news shows in a row when I get home, and others at various other times.

 

[Hurkyl]

I meant precisely what I said. Israel is doing today many things which Germany did in the years leading up to WW2, along the lines of persecuting large numbers of people based on their ethnicity. Their ethnic cleansing activities mirror very closely what Germany was doing prior to WW2.

What you are not saying is what you are clearly trying to imply. Why you don't try stating what you are trying to imply, and back that up?

 

[Adam]

Let me clarify. Obviously I can't say for certain the Israel is not planning a holocaust on the Palestinian people, but it is a safe bet they are not. Several reasons at least:

- They would not be able to. The Jews in Nazi Germany had no organized resistance nor any foreign support, whereas the Palestinians have both.

- The US would withdraw its support if they did. There would be no choice.

- Israel has no interest in doing this. All Israel wants to do is partition the nation. It wants to clearly define Palestinian land and keep them confined to this land. Whatever the motive for this, it doesn't amount to a desire to see an entire ethnic group wiped off the face of the planet.

1) Yes, the Jews in Germany during WW2 had an organised resistance.

2) Israel is already engaged in ethnic cleansing.

3) The United Nations has tried to gain international support to get Israel to stop, but the USA blocks it every time.

4) Given the way the USA government protects Israel now, why would there be no choice? The USA government does what it likes regardless.

 

[Adam]

What you are not saying is what you are clearly trying to imply. Why you don't try stating what you are trying to imply, and back that up?

I say what I mean, and I mean what I say. What do you imply I am implying?

 

[flippy]

You want basis? Look in the Koran. The Muslims are taught that if they kill Jews while killing themselves then they will go straight to heaven and get a bunch of women up there. Over the course of time, some Muslims have taken the word of Mohammad to the extreme and some, the peaceful, civil Muslims have interpreted it differently.
Just as in any religion, there are various sects which interpret their common book differently. The extremist Muslims are the ones making this war. They are blowing up innocent Israelis because the Koran tells them to. If this was a war over land it would have been settled years ago. This is their "Jihad," and they will not "win" until they obliterate the Jews. The Jews doing what the Nazi's tried to do to them? I don't think so.

 

[studentx]

2) Israel is already engaged in ethnic cleansing.

prove please, and don't give me 25 links where i have to spend hours searching