News Is the Israel Wall a symbol of oppression?

[drag]

You want basis? Look in the Koran. The Muslims are taught that if they kill Jews while killing themselves then they will go straight to heaven and get a bunch of women up there.

Actually, as far as I remember the excerpts I read,
the references are not aimed at Jews at all, they
talk about all the non-believers.

Live long and prosper.

 

[drag]

You know, believe it or not, some of us don't have the time to read ten news sources and go scouring the net every day.

And some of us don't have to. Personal experience and
direct information are quite sufficcient.

 

[Adam]

You want basis? Look in the Koran. The Muslims are taught that if they kill Jews while killing themselves then they will go straight to heaven and get a bunch of women up there.

Really? Please show me the section. http://www.quraan.com/index.aspx

 

[Adam]

prove please, and don't give me 25 links where i have to spend hours searching

Well duh, the links are where you can see the proof. Read a little.

 

[studentx]

i told you before, I've read your links and they don't prove that Israel is engaged in ethnic cleansing

 

[Hurkyl]

And the word 'conservative' dictates the duration.

This statement still baffles me, but I think a clarification might help. Godwin is a name, not two words.

Godwin's law is that comparing someone to Hitler/Nazis/whatever is effectively an admission of defeat. The principle is that the only point of such a comparison is to attempt to project negative emotional responses to Nazis onto the subject of debate, and resorting to such tactics is a demonstration that he who invoked Hitler has reached the end of his ability to argue his point on merit alone.

 

[Adam]

i told you before, I've read your links and they don't prove that Israel is engaged in ethnic cleansing

Good grief. After you slap your parents for me, come back and read the rest of this post...

Back now? Good. Read on.

One definition of "ethnic cleansing" is:

The systematic elimination of an ethnic group or groups from a region or society, as by deportation, forced emigration, or genocide.
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=ethnic cleansing

Feel free to go find other definitions. Until then, note that it includes deportation and forced emigration. Now, having read the pages to which I linked, you will know that Israel is forcing Palestinians out of various areas. That is deportation, or forced emigration. I'm not sure I can make it any simpler for you.

 

[Hurkyl]

I say what I mean, and I mean what I say.

So you don't think that Israel is bad or doing anything wrong, then?

 

[Adam]

So you don't think that Israel is bad or doing anything wrong, then?

I think the government of Israel and the IDF are doing many bad/wrong things.

 

[kat]

One definition of "ethnic cleansing" is:

In your own words, exactly which region are Palestinians being eliminated from?

 

[Adam]

What was it, 800,000 Palestinians driven out in the initial expansion in the late 40s? Also the Palestinians pushed out of the location of every Israeli settlement zone since then.

 

[kat]

What was it, 800,000 Palestinians driven out in the initial expansion in the late 40s?

800,00...driven? are you sure about that? and if so...wouldn't that be "cleansed" not cleansing?

Also the Palestinians pushed out of the location of every Israeli settlement zone since then.

I'm sorry...which "region" is that?

 

[Adam]

800,00...driven? are you sure about that? and if so...wouldn't that be "cleansed" not cleansing?

Like I said, it's a process, which is still happening.

I'm sorry...which "region" is that?

This map is as good as any: http://domino.un.org/unispal.nsf/cf02d057b04d356385256ddb006dc02f/c9a6bcd52cbcbd2e85256e28005a2008!OpenDocument I linked to it earlier in this thread. Didn't you bother checking the information I supplied?

 

[kat]

Like I said, it's a process, which is still happening.

You haven't answered my question. Are you actually saying that "800,000 Arabs were driven out of Palestine in the 1940's by...Jews? "Driven"?

This map is as good as any: http://domino.un.org/unispal.nsf/cf02d057b04d356385256ddb006dc02f/c9a6bcd52cbcbd2e85256e28005a2008!OpenDocument I linked to it earlier in this thread. Didn't you bother checking the information I supplied?

I asked for you to tell me in your own words, I don't have time for your laundry lists of links, I'm multi tasking to head out for the weekend. So, again what "region" are they being eliminated from?

 

[Hurkyl]

I think the government of Israel and the IDF are doing many bad/wrong things.

If you "say what you mean", then why did you never say this?

 

[Adam]

You haven't answered my question. Are you actually saying that "800,000 Arabs were driven out of Palestine in the 1940's by...Jews? "Driven"?

Don't try to put your feeble words in my mouth (or hands), Kat. Palestinian Arabs were driven out of regions of Palestine/Israel. From one of the links I so helpfully provided earlier:

The first Palestinian exodus

This territorial expansion by the use of force resulted in a large-scale exodus of refugees from the areas of hostilities. Palestinians allege that this was part of a deliberate policy to displace Palestinian Arabs to make room for immigrants, and quote Zionist sources, including Herzl:

"We shall try to spirit the penniless population across the border by procuring employment for it in the transit countries, while denying it any employment in our own country.

"Both the process of expropriation and the removal of the poor must be carried out discreetly and circumspectly"

"We suffered a reverse of a different nature on April 9 when combined Etzel and Stern Gang units mounted a deliberate and unprovoked attack on the Arab village of Deir Yassin on the western edge of Jerusalem. There was no reason for the attack. It was a quiet village, which had denied entry to the volunteer Arab units from across the frontier and which had not been involved in any attacks on Jewish areas. The dissident groups chose it for strictly political reasons. It was a deliberate act of terrorism ...

"... Women and children had not been given time enough to evacuate the village, although warned to do so by loudspeaker, and there were many of them among the 254 persons reported by the Arab Higher Committee as killed.

"The event was a disaster in every way. The dissidents held the village for two days and then abandoned it. They earned the contempt of most Jews in Jerusalem, and an unequivocal public repudiation by the Jewish Agency. But they gave the Arabs a strong charge against us, and the words 'Deir Yassin' were used over and over again both to justify their own atrocities and to persuade Arab villagers to join the mass flight which was now taking place all over Palestine."

http://domino.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/561c6ee353d740fb8525607d00581829/d442111e70e417e3802564740045a309

Feel free to read and learn a little more. I wish you would.

I asked for you to tell me in your own words, I don't have time for your laundry lists of links, I'm multi tasking to head out for the weekend. So, again what "region" are they being eliminated from?

1) From ergions of Palestine/Israel, as clearly identified by the maps I have provided.

2) Laundry list? Doesn't a "list" (in terms of a collection of items) have to be more than one item? Let's see:

A series of names, words, or other items written, printed, or imagined one after the other: a shopping list; a guest list; a list of things to do.
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=list

It was one item. Your feeble attempt to excuse your lack of having actually perused the provided information is just a waste of bandwidth.

 

[Adam]

If you "say what you mean", then why did you never say this?

I provided information from many sources. Your earlier request was the first time I was asked for my personal opinion.

 

[Hurkyl]

I provided information from many sources. Your earlier request was the first time I was asked for my personal opinion.

Well, then, if your personal opinion, until now, had nothing to do with your posts, then why, pray tell, are you only presenting information with a strong bias towards supporting your opinion?

 

[Adam]

Well, then, if your personal opinion, until now, had nothing to do with your posts, then why, pray tell, are you only presenting information with a strong bias towards supporting your opinion?

This thread is about Israel's activities involving segregation, in particular building a big wall to keep people separated. I posted links about Israel's activities.

If you want to start a thread about terrorists who attack Israelis, do so, and I may post information in that thread also.

Now how about sticking to the topic (which is not "Adam")?

 

[Hurkyl]

I thought it was about Israel's wall, not Israel's activities involving segregation.

Discussing reasons why Israel might want to build a wall would be on topic, which would include sepratist tendancies as well as terrorist activities.

Comparing Israel to Nazis (and nothing else) would be biased, as well as an appeal to emotion.

 

[Adam]

It's not an appeal to emotion if I am providing a factual basis for comparison. Ie. if I show Activity X in Case A, and Activity X in Case B.

 

[Hurkyl]

Pray tell, what is the point of making the comparison?

 

[Adam]

To clearly illustrate what is happening, and eradicate any odd illusions people may have about what is happening.

 

[Hurkyl]

And that explains why you talk about what's happening, but not why you compare Israel to Nazis.

 

[Robert Zaleski]

This statement still baffles me, but I think a clarification might help. Godwin is a name, not two words.

Godwin's law is that comparing someone to Hitler/Nazis/whatever is effectively an admission of defeat. The principle is that the only point of such a comparison is to attempt to project negative emotional responses to Nazis onto the subject of debate, and resorting to such tactics is a demonstration that he who invoked Hitler has reached the end of his ability to argue his point on merit alone.

Hurkyl, this is the definition I used. http://info.astrian.net/jargon/terms/g/Godwin_s_Law.html Maybe I'm being thin skinned, but whenever the word conservative enters a discussion, references to fascists and nazis seem to soon follow.

 

[Adam]

And that explains why you talk about what's happening, but not why you compare Israel to Nazis.

For the purposes of illumination by analogy, who else should I use? Robert Mugabe's government in Zimbabwe? Australia back in the days of the White Australia policy? South Africa a couple of decades ago? They're all similar, just different stages of the same ridiculous ideas.

 

[Hurkyl]

So when are you planning on making this analogy?