News Is the Israel Wall a symbol of oppression?

[Hurkyl]

Most people are idiots, but most are also nice people. I don't expect everyone out there to be capable of reading information without emotional bias, and absorbing it at face value.

Assuming you are correct, then alienating them will only strengthen their bias, making them even less likely to absorb it at face value. And quite honestly, I seriously consider this to be a possible motive for your posting style.

 

[Adam]

Assuming you are correct, then alienating them will only strengthen their bias, making them even less likely to absorb it at face value. And quite honestly, I seriously consider this to be a possible motive for your posting style.

I am quite honest and straightforward. I do not hide my motives. It's not my fault if most people aren't very bright. It's just the way the world is. I'm not going to dumb-down my posts to suit others. They can simply read the information supplied and work a little. And if I refer to them as less than brilliant, it does not mean I don't like them. Most of my friends here are rather stupid, but they're ok people, and I have fun with them.

I have a style?

 

[loseyourname]

Clearly you care enough to post a response, even if it is mere opinion and not backed up by facts.

I meant I don't care if its your opinion or not, not that I don't care about the topic. Sorry for the ambiguous sentence.

Nor had the NAZIs arrested all Jews everywhere and put them in ghettos.

They did by the start of the war. They certainly tried, at least. The official state policy was that Jews were subhuman and had no rights. The policy of Israel is nothing like that. Palestinians are still acknowledged as human beings with rights, legally speaking.

Yet. Yet.

Which is all I said. If you go back to the first page of this thread, you will find yourself saying "Israel is doing today what Germany did in the approach to WW2." If all you mean is that Israel has done several things that Germany did in the 30's, well so be it. So is the United States. It seemed clear to me that you are implying Israel means to perpetrate a holocaust against the Palestinians, which is not true.

Now, in answer to the above three almost-points, I urge you to simply think about it. Ethnic cleansing is not an event. It is a process. Palestinians are being moved, portion by portion, into ghettos. They assets are being taken, piece by piece. Slowly, they are becoming an underclass, for most of whom only the most menial labour is available. As I said, it is not an instantaneous event, but a process. It is happening. The material I have provided demonstrates this quite clearly. I recommend you take the time to read it. You may learn something.

I'm not going to read any of it. I'm already aware of most of what Israel has done. I imagine you are probably somewhat better informed than I on this particular subject, and that is fine. I don't dispute that Israel is doing things it shouldn't be doing, nor do I dispute that there are similarities between measures taken today and the measures taken against Jews by Nazi Germany. There still remains one major difference.

Ah, yeah they did. I have already provided information about this. Go back and read it. To continue arguing this point without reading the available information is to blindly argue from ignorance. Just read it.

Everything you provided, that I read, was an example of Jews defending themselves against Nazi attempts to send them away. Please provide me evidence showing that Jews in Germany carried out terrorist attacks on German civilians over a period of several decades and then we can compare the respective nations responses.

Insult what?

Is the second half of that sentence blank on your screen or do you honestly just think this is clever?

The blame rests not on "Palestinians" at all, but on a small few of them, and also on the state of Israel.

Thank you. I agree 100%. In Germany in the 30's, on the other hand, blame rested entirely on the Nazi regime.

Please read the supplied material.

You know, believe it or not, some of us don't have the time to read ten news sources and go scouring the net every day. Some of us have jobs and school and girlfriends and hobbies and interests. I'll get to it if I have a chance, but no promises.

 

[loseyourname]

Let me clarify. Obviously I can't say for certain the Israel is not planning a holocaust on the Palestinian people, but it is a safe bet they are not. Several reasons at least:

- They would not be able to. The Jews in Nazi Germany had no organized resistance nor any foreign support, whereas the Palestinians have both.

- The US would withdraw its support if they did. There would be no choice.

- Israel has no interest in doing this. All Israel wants to do is partition the nation. It wants to clearly define Palestinian land and keep them confined to this land. Whatever the motive for this, it doesn't amount to a desire to see an entire ethnic group wiped off the face of the planet.

 

[Adam]

They did by the start of the war. They certainly tried, at least. The official state policy was that Jews were subhuman and had no rights. The policy of Israel is nothing like that. Palestinians are still acknowledged as human beings with rights, legally speaking.

Barely.
http://www.news24.com/News24/World/News/0,,2-10-1462_1559424,00.html
http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/story.jsp?story=429490
http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?SectionID=22&ItemID=3989
http://www.breakingnews.ie/2004/07/18/story157604.html
http://abcnews.go.com/wire/World/ap20040713_637.html

Which is all I said. If you go back to the first page of this thread, you will find yourself saying "Israel is doing today what Germany did in the approach to WW2." If all you mean is that Israel has done several things that Germany did in the 30's, well so be it. So is the United States. It seemed clear to me that you are implying Israel means to perpetrate a holocaust against the Palestinians, which is not true.

I meant precisely what I said. Israel is doing today many things which Germany did in the years leading up to WW2, along the lines of persecuting large numbers of people based on their ethnicity. Their ethnic cleansing activities mirror very closely what Germany was doing prior to WW2.

I'm not going to read any of it. I'm already aware of most of what Israel has done.

Well, that is good. It improves my day to think that some people, at least, are aware of what is happening around them.

I don't dispute that Israel is doing things it shouldn't be doing, nor do I dispute that there are similarities between measures taken today and the measures taken against Jews by Nazi Germany. There still remains one major difference.

The difference: Time. If things go badly. I hope things do not go badly.

Everything you provided, that I read, was an example of Jews defending themselves against Nazi attempts to send them away.

Did you read the pages about organised Jewish resistance groups striking factories and such throughout WW2?

Please provide me evidence showing that Jews in Germany carried out terrorist attacks on German civilians over a period of several decades and then we can compare the respective nations responses.

Why several decades? I have provided information about it occurring over several years during WW2. Why would the period extend beyond the start and end of the NAZI regime? As for whether the attacks mentioned qualify as "terrorism", well, to me, it's when people deliberately attack civilians as a means of fighting a war or furthering some political, religious, or other such cause.

Is the second half of that sentence blank on your screen or do you honestly just think this is clever?

Start posting relevant information then, and maybe I'll revise my opinion.

Thank you. I agree 100%. In Germany in the 30's, on the other hand, blame rested entirely on the Nazi regime.

I also blame as filthy murdering scum every terrorist/resistance group which ever deliberately attacked and harmed civilians. Same goes for the bomber pilots and generals who destroyed Dresden and London and so many other civilian population centres.

You know, believe it or not, some of us don't have the time to read ten news sources and go scouring the net every day. Some of us have jobs and school and girlfriends and hobbies and interests. I'll get to it if I have a chance, but no promises.

I have two jobs, and some hobbies. No girlfriend at the moment. Hard to find one who can put up with me. However, I feel the need to know what is happening in the world, thus I normally watch three news shows in a row when I get home, and others at various other times.

 

[Hurkyl]

I meant precisely what I said. Israel is doing today many things which Germany did in the years leading up to WW2, along the lines of persecuting large numbers of people based on their ethnicity. Their ethnic cleansing activities mirror very closely what Germany was doing prior to WW2.

What you are not saying is what you are clearly trying to imply. Why you don't try stating what you are trying to imply, and back that up?

 

[Adam]

Let me clarify. Obviously I can't say for certain the Israel is not planning a holocaust on the Palestinian people, but it is a safe bet they are not. Several reasons at least:

- They would not be able to. The Jews in Nazi Germany had no organized resistance nor any foreign support, whereas the Palestinians have both.

- The US would withdraw its support if they did. There would be no choice.

- Israel has no interest in doing this. All Israel wants to do is partition the nation. It wants to clearly define Palestinian land and keep them confined to this land. Whatever the motive for this, it doesn't amount to a desire to see an entire ethnic group wiped off the face of the planet.

1) Yes, the Jews in Germany during WW2 had an organised resistance.

2) Israel is already engaged in ethnic cleansing.

3) The United Nations has tried to gain international support to get Israel to stop, but the USA blocks it every time.

4) Given the way the USA government protects Israel now, why would there be no choice? The USA government does what it likes regardless.

 

[Adam]

What you are not saying is what you are clearly trying to imply. Why you don't try stating what you are trying to imply, and back that up?

I say what I mean, and I mean what I say. What do you imply I am implying?

 

[flippy]

You want basis? Look in the Koran. The Muslims are taught that if they kill Jews while killing themselves then they will go straight to heaven and get a bunch of women up there. Over the course of time, some Muslims have taken the word of Mohammad to the extreme and some, the peaceful, civil Muslims have interpreted it differently.
Just as in any religion, there are various sects which interpret their common book differently. The extremist Muslims are the ones making this war. They are blowing up innocent Israelis because the Koran tells them to. If this was a war over land it would have been settled years ago. This is their "Jihad," and they will not "win" until they obliterate the Jews. The Jews doing what the Nazi's tried to do to them? I don't think so.

 

[studentx]

2) Israel is already engaged in ethnic cleansing.

prove please, and don't give me 25 links where i have to spend hours searching

 

[drag]

You want basis? Look in the Koran. The Muslims are taught that if they kill Jews while killing themselves then they will go straight to heaven and get a bunch of women up there.

Actually, as far as I remember the excerpts I read,
the references are not aimed at Jews at all, they
talk about all the non-believers.

Live long and prosper.

 

[drag]

You know, believe it or not, some of us don't have the time to read ten news sources and go scouring the net every day.

And some of us don't have to. Personal experience and
direct information are quite sufficcient.

 

[Adam]

You want basis? Look in the Koran. The Muslims are taught that if they kill Jews while killing themselves then they will go straight to heaven and get a bunch of women up there.

Really? Please show me the section. http://www.quraan.com/index.aspx

 

[Adam]

prove please, and don't give me 25 links where i have to spend hours searching

Well duh, the links are where you can see the proof. Read a little.

 

[studentx]

i told you before, I've read your links and they don't prove that Israel is engaged in ethnic cleansing

 

[Hurkyl]

And the word 'conservative' dictates the duration.

This statement still baffles me, but I think a clarification might help. Godwin is a name, not two words.

Godwin's law is that comparing someone to Hitler/Nazis/whatever is effectively an admission of defeat. The principle is that the only point of such a comparison is to attempt to project negative emotional responses to Nazis onto the subject of debate, and resorting to such tactics is a demonstration that he who invoked Hitler has reached the end of his ability to argue his point on merit alone.

 

[Adam]

i told you before, I've read your links and they don't prove that Israel is engaged in ethnic cleansing

Good grief. After you slap your parents for me, come back and read the rest of this post...

Back now? Good. Read on.

One definition of "ethnic cleansing" is:

The systematic elimination of an ethnic group or groups from a region or society, as by deportation, forced emigration, or genocide.
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=ethnic cleansing

Feel free to go find other definitions. Until then, note that it includes deportation and forced emigration. Now, having read the pages to which I linked, you will know that Israel is forcing Palestinians out of various areas. That is deportation, or forced emigration. I'm not sure I can make it any simpler for you.

 

[Hurkyl]

I say what I mean, and I mean what I say.

So you don't think that Israel is bad or doing anything wrong, then?

 

[Adam]

So you don't think that Israel is bad or doing anything wrong, then?

I think the government of Israel and the IDF are doing many bad/wrong things.

 

[kat]

One definition of "ethnic cleansing" is:

In your own words, exactly which region are Palestinians being eliminated from?

 

[Adam]

What was it, 800,000 Palestinians driven out in the initial expansion in the late 40s? Also the Palestinians pushed out of the location of every Israeli settlement zone since then.

 

[kat]

What was it, 800,000 Palestinians driven out in the initial expansion in the late 40s?

800,00...driven? are you sure about that? and if so...wouldn't that be "cleansed" not cleansing?

Also the Palestinians pushed out of the location of every Israeli settlement zone since then.

I'm sorry...which "region" is that?

 

[Adam]

800,00...driven? are you sure about that? and if so...wouldn't that be "cleansed" not cleansing?

Like I said, it's a process, which is still happening.

I'm sorry...which "region" is that?

This map is as good as any: http://domino.un.org/unispal.nsf/cf02d057b04d356385256ddb006dc02f/c9a6bcd52cbcbd2e85256e28005a2008!OpenDocument I linked to it earlier in this thread. Didn't you bother checking the information I supplied?

 

[kat]

Like I said, it's a process, which is still happening.

You haven't answered my question. Are you actually saying that "800,000 Arabs were driven out of Palestine in the 1940's by...Jews? "Driven"?

This map is as good as any: http://domino.un.org/unispal.nsf/cf02d057b04d356385256ddb006dc02f/c9a6bcd52cbcbd2e85256e28005a2008!OpenDocument I linked to it earlier in this thread. Didn't you bother checking the information I supplied?

I asked for you to tell me in your own words, I don't have time for your laundry lists of links, I'm multi tasking to head out for the weekend. So, again what "region" are they being eliminated from?

 

[Hurkyl]

I think the government of Israel and the IDF are doing many bad/wrong things.

If you "say what you mean", then why did you never say this?

 

[Adam]

You haven't answered my question. Are you actually saying that "800,000 Arabs were driven out of Palestine in the 1940's by...Jews? "Driven"?

Don't try to put your feeble words in my mouth (or hands), Kat. Palestinian Arabs were driven out of regions of Palestine/Israel. From one of the links I so helpfully provided earlier:

The first Palestinian exodus

This territorial expansion by the use of force resulted in a large-scale exodus of refugees from the areas of hostilities. Palestinians allege that this was part of a deliberate policy to displace Palestinian Arabs to make room for immigrants, and quote Zionist sources, including Herzl:

"We shall try to spirit the penniless population across the border by procuring employment for it in the transit countries, while denying it any employment in our own country.

"Both the process of expropriation and the removal of the poor must be carried out discreetly and circumspectly"

"We suffered a reverse of a different nature on April 9 when combined Etzel and Stern Gang units mounted a deliberate and unprovoked attack on the Arab village of Deir Yassin on the western edge of Jerusalem. There was no reason for the attack. It was a quiet village, which had denied entry to the volunteer Arab units from across the frontier and which had not been involved in any attacks on Jewish areas. The dissident groups chose it for strictly political reasons. It was a deliberate act of terrorism ...

"... Women and children had not been given time enough to evacuate the village, although warned to do so by loudspeaker, and there were many of them among the 254 persons reported by the Arab Higher Committee as killed.

"The event was a disaster in every way. The dissidents held the village for two days and then abandoned it. They earned the contempt of most Jews in Jerusalem, and an unequivocal public repudiation by the Jewish Agency. But they gave the Arabs a strong charge against us, and the words 'Deir Yassin' were used over and over again both to justify their own atrocities and to persuade Arab villagers to join the mass flight which was now taking place all over Palestine."

http://domino.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/561c6ee353d740fb8525607d00581829/d442111e70e417e3802564740045a309

Feel free to read and learn a little more. I wish you would.

I asked for you to tell me in your own words, I don't have time for your laundry lists of links, I'm multi tasking to head out for the weekend. So, again what "region" are they being eliminated from?

1) From ergions of Palestine/Israel, as clearly identified by the maps I have provided.

2) Laundry list? Doesn't a "list" (in terms of a collection of items) have to be more than one item? Let's see:

A series of names, words, or other items written, printed, or imagined one after the other: a shopping list; a guest list; a list of things to do.
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=list

It was one item. Your feeble attempt to excuse your lack of having actually perused the provided information is just a waste of bandwidth.

 

[Adam]

If you "say what you mean", then why did you never say this?

I provided information from many sources. Your earlier request was the first time I was asked for my personal opinion.

 

[Hurkyl]

I provided information from many sources. Your earlier request was the first time I was asked for my personal opinion.

Well, then, if your personal opinion, until now, had nothing to do with your posts, then why, pray tell, are you only presenting information with a strong bias towards supporting your opinion?

 

[Adam]

Well, then, if your personal opinion, until now, had nothing to do with your posts, then why, pray tell, are you only presenting information with a strong bias towards supporting your opinion?

This thread is about Israel's activities involving segregation, in particular building a big wall to keep people separated. I posted links about Israel's activities.

If you want to start a thread about terrorists who attack Israelis, do so, and I may post information in that thread also.

Now how about sticking to the topic (which is not "Adam")?

 

[Hurkyl]

I thought it was about Israel's wall, not Israel's activities involving segregation.

Discussing reasons why Israel might want to build a wall would be on topic, which would include sepratist tendancies as well as terrorist activities.

Comparing Israel to Nazis (and nothing else) would be biased, as well as an appeal to emotion.