Is the Subset Conditional Implication Universally True?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the validity of a specific conditional implication involving subsets and ordered sets. Participants explore whether the statement holds true universally, particularly in the context of linear orders and intervals.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • One participant questions the truth of the implication that if T is a subset of S, then there exist elements s' and s'' in S such that all elements t in T are bounded by s' and s''.
  • Another participant asserts that S must be a linearly ordered set, likely the real numbers, for the inequalities to be meaningful.
  • A participant acknowledges that S and T may need to be intervals for the implication to hold true, but they also express uncertainty about counterexamples involving non-interval sets.
  • One participant provides a specific example where T and S are not intervals, suggesting that the implication might still be valid in such cases.
  • A later reply claims that the implication is true for any ordered set S by stating that one can choose s' and s'' to be equal to any t in T.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants do not reach a consensus on the universality of the implication. There are competing views regarding the necessity of S and T being intervals and the conditions under which the implication holds.

Contextual Notes

Participants note that the discussion is limited by the definitions of intervals and ordered sets, and there is uncertainty regarding the implications of non-interval examples.

Zarlucicil
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I've used the following implication (conditional...whatever you want to call it) in a few proofs and was wondering if it's actually is true. I incorporated it into my proofs because it seemed to make obvious sense, but I'm not sure if I'm overlooking something- obvious or subtle.

T \subseteq S \Rightarrow \exists s' \in S \& \exists s'' \in S \ni [s' \leq t \leq s''], \forall t \in T.

English: If T is a subset of S, then there exists an s' in S and an s'' in S such that t is greater than or equal to s' and less than or equal to s'', for all t in T.
 
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First, we are not talking about general sets. In order for the inequalities to make sense, S must be a linearly ordered set- probably the set or real numbers. And it looks to me like, in order for that statement to be true, S and T must be intervals specifically.
 
HallsofIvy said:
S must be a linearly ordered set

Yes- I'm sorry. S is a subset of the real numbers.
HallsofIvy said:
And it looks to me like, in order for that statement to be true, S and T must be intervals specifically.

I suppose that might be true, but I can't think of a counterexample involving non-interval sets nor have I found a way to disprove the implication for non-interval sets. It seems to be true for at least some non-interval sets. For example, when T = {-3.2, -1, 7} and S = {-4, -3.2, -1, 0, 7, 9}. Hmm, or are these example sets considered to be "intervals" because they can be written as the union of intervals? --> T = [-3.2, -3.2] U [-1, -1] U [7, 7]. If they are considered to be intervals, then I don't know what wouldn't be considered an interval.
 
This is true for any ordered set S. Just pick s'=s''=t
 

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