B Is the Universe Finite or Infinite?

AI Thread Summary
The discussion centers on whether the universe is finite or infinite, with participants debating the implications of its expansion. While some argue that the universe's expansion suggests it is finite, others contend that expansion does not inherently determine size or shape. The concept of the universe being unbounded is supported by the idea that it could be infinite or finite but unbounded, with no definitive evidence for either claim. The balloon analogy is mentioned to illustrate the universe's expansion, but it is clarified that this is merely an analogy and not a literal representation. Ultimately, the nature of the universe remains uncertain, with ongoing exploration needed to understand its true characteristics.
newrd
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The universe- from our understanding, is expanding, thus the regions (for lack of a better word) particles have not yet reached do not exist. How far our universe can/ will expand is unknown, it may be infinite, but we can conclude at this time, as it is still expanding, that it is finite. True or False?
 
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newrd said:
The universe- from our understanding, is expanding, thus the regions (for lack of a better word) particles have not yet reached do not exist. How far our universe can/ will expand is unknown, it may be infinite, but we can conclude at this time, as it is still expanding, that it is finite. True or False?
False. We cannot conclude anything about the size/shape of the universe based on our current knowledge, other than that it is likely to be FAR bigger than the Observable Universe. It could be infinite or it could be finite but unbounded.
 
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Expanding has nothing to do with being finite or infinite. Take a line (not a segment.) It's infinite right? Now take two points on the line, doesn't matter where they are. Now expand the line so that the distance between the two points is doubled. The line is still infinite, but has expanded considerably.
 
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Yes, indeed. True or False. Finite and unbounded. (*) Which Google. Just Google around for plenty good and bad stuff. Wonder and learn. And don't ask the wrong questions (like 'True or False?')
Have you already stumbled upon the balloon analogy ? Check out Peter Hinds and especially his signature.

(*) I bow to phinds' reply - which crossed my slow typing.
 
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BvU said:
Yes, indeed. True or False. Finite and unbounded. (*) Which Google. Just Google around for plenty good and bad stuff. Wonder and learn. And don't ask the wrong questions (like 'True or False?')
Have you already stumbled upon the balloon analogy ? Check out Peter Hinds and especially his signature.
.
Damn. I usually get "Phil" as the wrong name. "Peter" is a new one. :smile:

Paul
 
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To be clear, is there any evidence to support the idea that the universe is unbounded? The lack of a mathematical equation to describe a boundary condition does not eliminate the possibility.

If you mean the universe to include all of spacetime, isn't there a boundary where time = 0?
 
newrd said:
The universe- from our understanding, is expanding, thus the regions (for lack of a better word) particles have not yet reached do not exist.

That's not how expansion works. Expansion causes all objects to get further away from all other objects not bound by gravity or some other force. Particles are not sent flying off into unoccupied space, they are simply getting further away from everything else.
 
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newjerseyrunner said:
To be clear, is there any evidence to support the idea that the universe is unbounded? The lack of a mathematical equation to describe a boundary condition does not eliminate the possibility.
You make a good point but I think the general thinking is that a boundary just really messes up known physics.

If you mean the universe to include all of spacetime, isn't there a boundary where time = 0?
Another good point, but I think we were discussing space, not space-time (at least I was).
 
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@newrd I second BvU's advice that you check out the link in my signature. It may clearly up some of your misconceptions.
 
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  • #10
newjerseyrunner said:
To be clear, is there any evidence to support the idea that the universe is unbounded? The lack of a mathematical equation to describe a boundary condition does not eliminate the possibility.

There is approximately the same amount of evidence supporting the idea that the universe is unbounded as there is supporting the idea that it is bounded.

newjerseyrunner said:
If you mean the universe to include all of spacetime, isn't there a boundary where time = 0?

No, there's a mathematical singularity at t=0, not a boundary.The density everywhere in the universe goes to infinity as t approaches 0, so at no point could you say that there is a boundary.
 
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  • #11
Drakkith said:
No, there's a mathematical singularity at t=0, not a boundary.The density everywhere in the universe goes to infinity as t approaches 0, so at no point could you say that there is a boundary.
Can you have time being a negative value? I understand that space could have still been unbounded at time = 0, but isn't it generally accepted that at that point, there was nothing before it, and therefore it's a boundary condition at the beginning of time? I'm referring to spacetime, not space.
 
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  • #12
newjerseyrunner said:
Can you have time being a negative value?

I'm not certain. Time is linked to the scale factor of the universe, so a negative value would be... problematic.
 
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  • #13
newjerseyrunner said:
I understand that space could have still been unbounded at time = 0, but isn't it generally accepted that at that point, there was nothing before it, and therefore it's a boundary condition at the beginning of time? I'm referring to spacetime, not space.

It is unknown whether or not something existed before t=0. That point in time could be a true "point of creation" for the universe, or it could simply be a misunderstanding based on an incomplete knowledge of physics. We really don't know.
 
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  • #14
newjerseyrunner said:
Expanding has nothing to do with being finite or infinite. Take a line (not a segment.) It's infinite right? Now take two points on the line, doesn't matter where they are. Now expand the line so that the distance between the two points is doubled. The line is still infinite, but has expanded considerably.

Drakkith said:
That's not how expansion works. Expansion causes all objects to get further away from all other objects not bound by gravity or some other force. Particles are not sent flying off into unoccupied space, they are simply getting further away from everything else.
Ahh ok, so there is no particle horizon so to speak, there is only the expanding balloon analogy again. I think I understand. So does infinity come down to the fact of whether we live on the surface of the balloon, or inside it?
 
  • #15
newrd said:
Ahh ok, so there is no particle horizon so to speak, there is only the expanding balloon analogy again. I think I understand. So does infinity come down to the fact of whether we live on the surface of the balloon, or inside it?
Did you read the article in the link in my signature?
 
  • #16
phinds said:
@newrd I second BvU's advice that you check out the link in my signature. It may clearly up some of your misconceptions.
Thankyou to both of you, I have bookmarked it and put it on tomorrows reading list :) All of your replies remind me of the saying- "There is no such thing as a stupid question"- we are all here to learn and we all have to start somewhere!
 
  • #17
newrd said:
Ahh ok, so there is no particle horizon so to speak, there is only the expanding balloon analogy again. I think I understand. So does infinity come down to the fact of whether we live on the surface of the balloon, or inside it?

The surface. There is no inside of the balloon. Just like there is no spoon!
 
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  • #18
Drakkith said:
The surface. There is no inside of the balloon. Just like there is no spoon!
Could we not be the fish inside a 1ft x 1ft fish tank, unaware of anything outside our little tank which we can circumnavigate with ease, until one day, surprisingly, our little fish tank has expanded so much we think it may be endless?!
 
  • #19
newrd said:
Could we not be the fish inside a 1ft x 1ft fish tank, unaware of anything outside our little tank which we can circumnavigate with ease, until one day, surprisingly, our little fish tank has expanded so much we think it may be endless?!
We could be. It's a perfectly logical conclusion, it's just not mathematical. If we don't know for sure, we can't make assumptions one way or the other, we can simply say what we think is most likely.
 
  • #20
newrd said:
Could we not be the fish inside a 1ft x 1ft fish tank, unaware of anything outside our little tank which we can circumnavigate with ease, until one day, surprisingly, our little fish tank has expanded so much we think it may be endless?!
A fun concept for sci-fic but just blather for actual science. If it is endless (infinite) then it has always been infinite. You can't get from finite to infinite physically.
 
  • #21
phinds said:
A fun concept for sci-fic but just blather for actual science. If it is endless (infinite) then it has always been infinite. You can't get from finite to infinite physically.
I think he was stating that from the fish's point of view, the space has expanded beyond what it can see so it would appear infinite.
 
  • #22
phinds said:
A fun concept for sci-fic but just blather for actual science. If it is endless (infinite) then it has always been infinite. You can't get from finite to infinite physically.
The blather was a reply to the Matrix reference! But that being said, how has it come to be thought that we are on the surface of the expanding balloon and not actually inside the balloon (or fishtank!)? I really must read the balloon analogy before I ask anymore questions..
 
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  • #23
newrd said:
The blather was a reply to the Matrix reference! But that being said, how has it come to be thought that we are on the surface of the expanding balloon and not actually inside the balloon (or fishtank!)? I really must read the balloon analogy before I ask anymore questions..
What an excellent idea.
 
  • #24
newrd said:
The blather was a reply to the Matrix reference! But that being said, how has it come to be thought that we are on the surface of the expanding balloon and not actually inside the balloon (or fishtank!)? I really must read the balloon analogy before I ask anymore questions..

The key is that the balloon analogy is just that. An analogy. The real universe has three spatial dimensions (not two like the surface of the balloon) yet the behavior of objects within space is similar to imaginary objects on the surface of this imaginary expanding balloon. But that's it. A similarity.
 
  • #25
newrd said:
But that being said, how has it come to be thought that we are on the surface of the expanding balloon and not actually inside the balloon (or fishtank!)? I really must read the balloon analogy before I ask anymore questions..
YAGpXPd.png


I prefer the baking raisin bread analogy. It's already in 3D.
 
  • #26
newjerseyrunner said:
I prefer the baking raisin bread analogy. It's already in 3D.

Yeah but it tastes funny and has all those nasty edges!
 
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  • #27
Your grandma cut the crust off your grilled cheese sandwiches, didnt she.
 
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  • #28
Quantum321 said:
The concept of the BB happening everywhere at the same time was proposed around 1999.
Quantum321 said:
I consider the concept of the BB occurring everywhere at the same time a proposal. As far as I know its not a theory...it has no postulates..it makes no predictions.
Where does this come from? It was there from the inception. I think you're somehow confusing it with the discovery of dark energy, which happened around the time you indicated.
It is also an integral part of the BB cosmology, and any predictions BB makes are necessarily linked to it happening everywhere.

Consider the development steps of the theory:
- You start with General Relativity and the observation that the universe you see is homogeneous and isotropic (i.e., 'cosmological principle').
- Application of the cosmological principle to GR equations allows you to obtain a solution describing the metric of the universe (the FLRW metric)
- The FLRW metric describes how the universe evolves in time depending on its curvature and contents, which are determined from observations, and gives predictions as to the redshifts, form of the CMBR, age of the universe, abundances of elements.
- The phrase 'Big Bang' is used to describe either the whole theory, or the early, dense, hot stage, or the singularity popping up when you extrapolate the evolution sufficiently backwards in time.

You assume there is no center when you decide to apply the cosmological principle, and you decide to do that based on observations. That using this assumption to solve the equations of an extremely well-tested theory (GR) gets you predictions that match observations is a clear indication that it was a good assumption. You don't get to keep the predictions while ditching the no-center assumption that got you those.

The FLRW metric includes the curvature parameter, which determines whether the universe is finite or infinite. The parameter is not time dependent, so whichever the universe really is - it stays that way throughout its evolution.

For an overview of inflation and where it fits into the BB see this paper by A.Liddle:
An introduction to cosmological inflation
If maths is a problem, you can still get some understanding from the descriptive parts, but you'd probably be better off reading Guth's own popularization book: 'The Inflationary Universe'.
 
  • #29
The concept that the big bang happened everywhere was not introduced, that's completely backwards. It was determined that the universe was denser in the past than it is now. That density, if you rolled the clock backwards approached infinity. The "size" of space has been increasing too, things aren't simply flying apart from each other like shrapnel from a bomb, it's the space between them that's stretching. But if you roll the clock back on this, you still have an infinite amount of space at the beginning, not a point.
 
  • #30
newjerseyrunner said:
The concept that the big bang happened everywhere was not introduced, that's completely backwards. It was determined that the universe was denser in the past than it is now. That density, if you rolled the clock backwards approached infinity. The "size" of space has been increasing too, things aren't simply flying apart from each other like shrapnel from a bomb, it's the space between them that's stretching. But if you roll the clock back on this, you still have an infinite amount of space at the beginning, not a point.
It's not known that there was an infinite amount of space at the beginning so you should not state that as fact. It is possible that the universe is and was finite but unbounded. Yes, the consensus is that it is and was infinite but that is not a known fact.
 
  • #31
Quantum321 said:
@PeterDonis I don't know if this is even a legit reference for PF but I'd appreciate your comment on the fact that it contravenes what you told me in another thread, namely that the Big Bang Theory does not include the early inflationary period but rather starts with the hot dense plasma at the end of that period. @Quantum321 has been discussing this issue in several posts in this thread and has asked for clarification on it so I suspect he'd like to hear your input as well.

Thanks
 
  • #32
Look, to me it seems that if we can't see the end of the universe (which we can't), we can't tell if it is finite or infinite. We can either not see the end of the universe because it is infinite, or the end of the universe is to far away for us to see with our current telescopes. Also, how would we know if we were looking at the end of the universe? What would it look like? Because nothing is something so it doesn't work like that. There is no equation to date that tells us a definite answer, so, until someone writes one, I will say the universe is finite and is expanding, the same way it says it should in the balloon analogy (as a child I made a universe expansion theory, which turned out to be the same as the balloon analogy!). But all this is just my opinion so... I short I don't think there is an answer to this question and we are all just wasting our time discussing this.
 
  • #33
phinds said:
You make a good point but I think the general thinking is that a boundary just really messes up known physics.

Another good point, but I think we were discussing space, not space-time (at least I was).

I seem to get confused by the difference between the universe as defined by the big bang and (if there is) the universe that exists beyond the the big bang.
 
  • #34
I think that the following article, "Misconceptions about the Big Bang, Scientific American Feb 21 2005. by Charles Lineweaver and Tamara Davis world be of interest.

http://ccs.dogpile.com/ClickHandler.ashx?encp=ld%3d20160719%26app%3d1%26c%3dinfo.dogpl%26s%3dDogpile%26rc%3dinfo.dogpl%26dc%3d%26euip%3d174.109.107.219%26pvaid%3dd4b0380c60e7485f91fe0baa30eef7b3%26dt%3dDesktop%26sid%3d1830193568.760267776997.1468940139%26vid%3d1830193568.760267776997.1373747654.118%26fcoi%3d417%26fcop%3dtopnav%26fct.uid%3d30e880645d4c4e599ca2d928badf81bf%26fpid%3d27%26en%3d0WEFU%252fZhSoTF%252fFm%252bpLeuVl4UPZzISdzyg%252baGYj7N8ISb7M1aTnzzgA%253d%253d%26ru%3dhttp%253a%252f%252fwww.mso.anu.edu.au%252f%25257Echarley%252fpapers%252fLineweaverDavisSciAm.pdf%26ap%3d2%26coi%3d1494%26npp%3d2%26p%3d0%26pp%3d0%26mid%3d9%26ep%3d2%26du%3dwww.mso.anu.edu.au%252f%257echarley%252fpapers%252fLineweaverDavisSciAm.pdf%26hash%3d92C2CD1E7C9BBAB63BB27317AA86EB09&cop=main-title

This is a very readable article that directly addresses pretty much everything that has been kicked around on this thread.
Highly recommended.

--diogenesNY
 
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  • #35
Pjpic said:
I seem to get confused by the difference between the universe as defined by the big bang and (if there is) the universe that exists beyond the the big bang.
There is no such thing as "the universe that exists beyond the the big bang"
 
  • #36
phinds said:
False. We cannot conclude anything about the size/shape of the universe based on our current knowledge, other than that it is likely to be FAR bigger than the Observable Universe. It could be infinite or it could be finite but unbounded.
Finite but unbounded can happen in infinite dimensional spaces. However, in finite dimensional spaces unboundedness seems incompatible with finiteness. Can you explain this further?
 
  • #37
Stephen_Ceci said:
However, in finite dimensional spaces unboundedness seems incompatible with finiteness.

Why? Think about 2D sphere.
 
  • #38
Stephen_Ceci said:
Finite but unbounded can happen in infinite dimensional spaces. However, in finite dimensional spaces unboundedness seems incompatible with finiteness. Can you explain this further?
phinds means without boundary when he says unbounded. I've been trying to get him to use the terminology correctly for ages :rolleyes:

weirdoguy said:
Why? Think about 2D sphere.
The surface of a 2D sphere is bounded. It does not have a boundary.
 
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  • #39
Bandersnatch said:
phinds means without boundary when he says unbounded. I've been trying to get him to use the terminology correctly for ages :rolleyes:
AAACCCKKKK ! I'll never learn apparently. Thanks and sorry. o:)
 
  • #40
By bounded I am just thinking simple metric spaces where distances in space or space-time are finite. Can you explain how a distance would be infinite in such a space?
 
  • #41
phinds said:
I had had the same impression that you did, which was that the Big Bang Theory started immediately after the singularity but Peter told me that it is not considered to have started until after the tiny part of the first second which is the inflationary period.

More precisely, the first state of the universe that we actually have good observational evidence for is the hot, dense, rapidly expanding state that, according to our best current models, occurred at the end of inflation. This state is the one that is properly referred to as the "Big Bang" state in our actual cosmological theories--the term "Big Bang" is also used to refer to those theories themselves, the group of models that all contain the same hot, dense, rapidly expanding state and the same future development of that state into the universe we observe.

In articles for non-scientists, it is true that the term "Big Bang" is also used to refer to the "initial singularity" that appears in highly idealized models such as those that were developed in the 1920s as the first attempts to apply General Relativity to cosmology. However, practically nobody actually believes that those models are applicable before the end of inflation, i.e., before the "Big Bang" state described above. They are just notional models that are used to get across some basic ideas to non-scientists. (There are some speculative models that try to extrapolate the highly idealized models back to the Planck epoch, but AFAIK they haven't gotten any traction.)

Also, while our best current understanding is that what preceded the "Big Bang" state described above was an inflationary epoch, we actually don't know that with the same confidence that we know about the "Big Bang" state itself. It is possible that something else came before, and there are various speculative models that have been published in the literature. But they all have in common the key property that there is no "initial singularity". In inflationary models, the inflationary state is "eternal" in the past (some early inflation models weren't like this, but those have all been ruled out). In other speculative models, there are various versions of a "bounce", i.e., a previous collapse phase that got turned by some quantum process into the expanding phase we now observe. There is even a speculative model (the Hartle-Hawking "no boundary" proposal) in which the universe only has a finite extent in the past, but there is no initial singularity (quantum corrections "smooth things out" so that everything remains finite--yes, it's counterintuitive, but AFAIK nobody has challenged the mathematical consistency of this model).

In short, there is no current version of a "Big Bang theory", whether it's our best current understanding or the speculative alternatives, in which the theory starts "immediately after the singularity". The only model in which that is the case is the notional model described above, that nobody actually believes is applicable. That's why I objected to that particular phraseology.

Quantum321 said:
When ever someone disagrees with a published article and does not offer a competing publication I really don't give their opinion much credence.

Your "published article" is not a textbook or peer-reviewed paper; it is just an article for popular consumption on the NASA website. (At least, that's the "published article" you linked to in the exchange with phinds that led to this post by me.) You should not be using it as a source to find out what the Big Bang theory, the actual one used by cosmologists and described in textbooks and peer-reviewed papers, actually says.

If you want something from an actual paper, the Liddle paper that was linked to earlier has this on p. 10:

"Inflation does not replace the hot big bang theory; it is a bolt-on accessory attached at early times to improve the performance of the theory."

In other words, the inflationary epoch happened before the events covered by the standard hot big bang theory. This is entirely consistent with what I described earlier in this post. Note also that that paper never even mentions an "initial singularity".
 
  • #42
diogenesNY said:
I think that the following article, "Misconceptions about the Big Bang, Scientific American Feb 21 2005. by Charles Lineweaver and Tamara Davis world be of interest.

http://ccs.dogpile.com/ClickHandler.ashx?encp=ld%3d20160719%26app%3d1%26c%3dinfo.dogpl%26s%3dDogpile%26rc%3dinfo.dogpl%26dc%3d%26euip%3d174.109.107.219%26pvaid%3dd4b0380c60e7485f91fe0baa30eef7b3%26dt%3dDesktop%26sid%3d1830193568.760267776997.1468940139%26vid%3d1830193568.760267776997.1373747654.118%26fcoi%3d417%26fcop%3dtopnav%26fct.uid%3d30e880645d4c4e599ca2d928badf81bf%26fpid%3d27%26en%3d0WEFU%252fZhSoTF%252fFm%252bpLeuVl4UPZzISdzyg%252baGYj7N8ISb7M1aTnzzgA%253d%253d%26ru%3dhttp%253a%252f%252fwww.mso.anu.edu.au%252f%25257Echarley%252fpapers%252fLineweaverDavisSciAm.pdf%26ap%3d2%26coi%3d1494%26npp%3d2%26p%3d0%26pp%3d0%26mid%3d9%26ep%3d2%26du%3dwww.mso.anu.edu.au%252f%257echarley%252fpapers%252fLineweaverDavisSciAm.pdf%26hash%3d92C2CD1E7C9BBAB63BB27317AA86EB09&cop=main-title

This is a very readable article that directly addresses pretty much everything that has been kicked around on this thread.
Highly recommended.

--diogenesNY
The second series of pictures on page 39 suggests (to me anyway) that the big bang has a boundary that is displacing the white space. But I don't think that is correct for some reason.
 
  • #43
It's a major theory that space can be bent. If that's the case, wouldn't that make our universe finite?
 
  • #44
Sue Rich said:
It's a major theory that space can be bent. If that's the case, wouldn't that make our universe finite?

[1] Measurements indicate that the universe is flat, suggesting that it is also infinite in size. (however this is still being debated) The speed of light limits us to viewing the volume of the universe visible since the Big Bang; because the universe is approximately 13.8 billion years old, scientists can only see 13.8 billion light-years from Earth. [Infographic: The History & Structure of the Universe]

1. http://www.space.com/24309-shape-of-the-universe.html
 
  • #45
Sue Rich said:
It's a major theory that space can be bent. If that's the case, wouldn't that make our universe finite?
No, it is NOT a major theory that space can be bent. That is a pop-sci misconception. Space is not a thing that can be bent or stretched.

This misconception comes about because in space-time, absent any force, an object follows a geodesic, which in Riemann Geomtry (the geometry that describes space-time) is a straight line. In Euclidean geometry, which is not actually applicable, these space-time geodesics appear "bent".

How you conclude that this requires a finitely universe, I have no idea but it does not.
 
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  • #46
Sue Rich said:
It's a major theory that space can be bent.

I assume you are referring here to GR. GR says that spacetime can be curved (and is if gravity is present). But that does not require "space" to be curved. "Space" is not an invariant concept; it depends on your choice of coordinates. So saying "space can be bent" is not really a statement about physics; it's a statement about a particular coordinate choice. Choices of coordinates can't affect the underlying geometry of spacetime, so they can't affect whether the universe is finite or infinite.
 
  • #47
Now that the poster who gave incorrect references about the "standard Big Bang model" is gone, in case anyone else is interested, the actual "standard model" of Big Bang cosmology is described here...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lambda-CDM_model

...and in the references given there.
 
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  • #48
Peter, thanks for your clarifications on all this.
 

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