Is the US really better than Mexico?

  • Thread starter ShawnD
  • Start date
In summary, illegal immigrants in the US start off with very little, often working in unsafe conditions, and have very little chance of improving their lives.
  • #1
ShawnD
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A lot of people try to illegally emigrate from Mexico to the US, but are they really improving their lives?

As an illegal immigrant you start with no money, no house, no job. Not knowing English makes you less employable than somebody who does speak English. Given that it's illegal in many places to hire illegal immigrants, your employers must be rather shady to hire you. Your shady boss also will not even pay you minimum wage since he's already breaking the law by hiring you. Your job will be less safe than a typical American job because there are no safety regulations to follow; complaining to OSHA will only get if you sent back to Mexico. You will probably not get any medical attention when injured because you have no money, no insurance, and you are not covered by medicaid.

Overall this sounds like a horrible life. Is Mexico really that bad?
 
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  • #2
A lot of people try to illegally emigrate from Mexico to the US, but are they really improving their lives?
Yes, they are.

As an illegal immigrant you start with no money, no house, no job.Not knowing English makes you less employable than somebody who does speak English.
In some cases yes, in some cases no. Farmers have no one to work for them. They don't necessarily need someone who can speak english, just someone to do work for them.

Your job will be less safe than a typical American job because there are no safety regulations to follow
That's not true. If you work without papers at say, a small business, safety regulations are not an issue. Safety regulations have to be followed no matter who works there, the inspector does not 'skip' places with illegal help. They could get into a lot of trouble if their illegal workers got injured and sued them.

will probably not get any medical attention when injured because you have no money, no insurance, and you are not covered by medicaid.

Oh, you should watch the news then. They are taking up too much of hospital resources.

Overall this sounds like a horrible life. Is Mexico really that bad?

The alternative? A life in mexico where education stops at middle school, the government is corrupt, and you can't work your way to success.

It sure is better, else why would they continue to come here?
 
  • #3
People aren't coming to the US illegally from places like Mexico City or other developed cities in Mexico. They come from the poorer areas of Mexico where it simply is THAT bad, many of which are in hte northern part of Mexico. I mean it's not like people moving from a place like Seattle to find a better life in Vancouver, BC.
 
  • #4
cyrusabdollahi said:
Oh, you should watch the news then. They are taking up too much of hospital resources.

Yes, this is very true. Yah they don't have medical insurance... but the hospital can't refuse to treat them... dispite what some people seem to think. The cost is simply incurred by the government directly. What happens is people simply go into the emergency room and the hospital treats them there.

Also, as cyrus said, there's pretty much no way an employer can make a job environent less safe for specific workers without putting himself in danger of being investigated.
 
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  • #5
Pengwuino said:
Yes, this is very true. Yah they don't have medical insurance... but the hospital can't refuse to treat them... dispite what some people seem to think. The cost is simply incurred by the government directly. What happens is people simply go into the emergency room and the hospital treats them there.

Can you pull this same scam as an American? Just go in for treatment and never pay for any of it?
 
  • #6
ShawnD said:
Can you pull this same scam as an American? Just go in for treatment and never pay for any of it?

Yes. Emergency rooms can be real madhouses so I am not evne sure there's a system in place that even tries to prevent such fraud though.
 
  • #7
ShawnD said:
Can you pull this same scam as an American? Just go in for treatment and never pay for any of it?

No, you will get a bill sent to your house (A DAMN big one if you don't have insurance). A person illegal might get a bill, but how are they going to pay? They wont. So Joe Blow gets stuck with the bill via taxes.
 
  • #8
cyrusabdollahi said:
No, you will get a bill sent to your house (A DAMN big one if you don't have insurance). A person illegal might get a bill, but how are they going to pay? They wont. So Joe Blow gets stuck with the bill via taxes.

That's if you provide them with accurate information...
 
  • #9
You're not going to just walk out of the hospital without showing them paper work.
 
  • #10
cyrusabdollahi said:
You're not going to just walk out of the hospital without showing them paper work.

Oh ye of little faith... can probably google the proper documents :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: Well not exactly, but its no serious guard against fraud, especially in your typical ER.
 
  • #11
Um, yeah. Because you will google fake documents and print them out form your hospital bed. Right.
 
  • #12
cyrusabdollahi said:
Um, yeah. Because you will google fake documents and print them out form your hospital bed. Right.

I think he means show up in the ER with no identification of any kind and give them a fake name with a strong russian accent.
 
  • #13
cyrusabdollahi said:
No, you will get a bill sent to your house (A DAMN big one if you don't have insurance). A person illegal might get a bill, but how are they going to pay? They wont. So Joe Blow gets stuck with the bill via taxes.
There are Americans without insurance who can't afford to pay either. The same holds true. The hospital will keep sending bills, but it doesn't mean they have the money to pay them. Sometimes, all they ever get paid is $5/month or something that shows the patient is making an effort to pay, but really will never cover the actual costs of care.

The drain on the hospital system in border towns is one of the bigger complaints about illegal immigrants. In some border towns, they're not even moving to the US to stay, just crossing the border for the medical care and crossing back. I don't blame them in the least for trying. When you don't have any medical care closer to home, you'll try anything to save your loved ones. But, there has to be a better way without draining resources from our own citizens...like have Mexico cough up some money to cover the costs of its citizens using our border hospitals if they don't have any place to go within their own country that's comparable.
 
  • #14
Moonbear said:
...like have Mexico cough up some money to cover the costs of its citizens using our border hospitals if they don't have any place to go within their own country that's comparable.
There is a hospital in Dallas that is suing the Mexican and other governments for health care for their citizens. I believe they're also suing specific counties within Texas for care provided to the indigents with a last known address there. How that's going to work out, I have no idea. I'll look for the link.
 
  • #15
My father-in-law travels a lot to archeological digs in Mexico. He has been to a lot of places and I can say that from his experiences, YES they are much better here.

I am going to hold my tongue on the whole issue. Where I lived on Long Island, the illegal worker issue was/is a very hot button topic. You would be very surprised at just how many ways there are to get a free ride if you have the guts to try.
 
  • #16
ShawnD said:
Is Mexico really that bad?

Feel free to illegally immigrate to Mexico and find out. Have you ever even visited a 3rd world country? There's a definite reason 20 million people plus have run across the border in search of a better life.

On the other note, it is a tragedy what is happening to our public services because of the hordes of illegal immigrants running across the border and demanding medical attention/social security/citizen's rights. I'm not sure I have the answer to the problem, but I do know something must be done. I personally don't like my tax dollar's going to supporting this illegal community.
 
  • #17
The formal Dutch "grand strategy" on reducing inflow of economic fugitives is to help and take away the reason to flee.

They learned that from the Americans who donated millions to a devastated Western Europe right after the second world war, in a project called the Marshall Plan. One of the reasons: if you help them prosper, they will trade with you and help you prosper.

So does America rememberthat method?
 
  • #18
Andre said:
So does America rememberthat method?
Yeah. Now it's called NAFTA and it's kicking the crap out of us.
 
  • #19
Andre said:
The formal Dutch "grand strategy" on reducing inflow of economic fugitives is to help and take away the reason to flee.

They learned that from the Americans who donated millions to a devastated Western Europe right after the second world war, in a project called the Marshall Plan. One of the reasons: if you help them prosper, they will trade with you and help you prosper.

So does America rememberthat method?

We can't just CARRY Mexico's economy, it needs to develop the infrastructure itself... and throwing money at the problem won't help with the corruption possible. Yanking an entire country out of it's "3rd worldness" is no easy task...
 
  • #20
That figures, a bit of a catch22, it seems.
 
  • #21
Mech_Engineer said:
We can't just CARRY Mexico's economy, it needs to develop the infrastructure itself... and throwing money at the problem won't help with the corruption possible. Yanking an entire country out of it's "3rd worldness" is no easy task...

The last ones who did that were the Germans... by taking up Eastern Germany. Yes, it has its price... but hats off.
 
  • #22
The countries of western Europe after WWII had far more legitimate governments, that actually made an effort to improve infrastructure and foster economic growth, than Mexico has ever had.
 
  • #23
ShawnD said:
A lot of people try to illegally emigrate from Mexico to the US, but are they really improving their lives?

As an illegal immigrant you start with no money, no house, no job...

Overall this sounds like a horrible life. Is Mexico really that bad?
I think you are caught up in your own catch-22. Illegal immigrants immigrate illegally precisely because they are the most desperate. Immigrants who immigrate legally are better off when they get here and were likely better off when they left. Either way, both groups gain by coming here.

And setting aside how life is for the immigrant, many people immigrate here for the sake of their children, who are guaranteed by the government a far better upbringing here than they could get unless they were quite well off in Mexico.
 
  • #24
And just an example of how it is for legal immigrants, my company is currently in the process of bringing over someone we met on a job in Chihuahua last year. He's 25 and has a mechanical engineering degree. He works as a technician/installer of controls for HVAC systems, something that is typically done by non-degreed technicians in the US - it is very common to be overqualified for your job in Mexico. He makes on the order of about $7,000 a year, and we plan on paying him 3-4x that, which will put him at about 1/2 to 2/3 of what we'd pay an equivalent American citizen.
 
  • #25
russ_watters said:
He makes on the order of about $7,000 a year, and we plan on paying him 3-4x that, which will put him at about 1/2 to 2/3 of what we'd pay an equivalent American citizen.
And does that really give him a better life? What can he afford on about $7000 a year in Chihuahua compared to that 3-4 X that in Philly? That's a pretty poor salary to live on in Philly.
 
  • #26
Four times 7k, he might as well work at wall-mart, he'll make more money.
 
  • #27
Moonbear said:
And does that really give him a better life? What can he afford on about $7000 a year in Chihuahua compared to that 3-4 X that in Philly? That's a pretty poor salary to live on in Philly.

When these kinda things are brought up, it makes me wonder exactly what the difference is between your average person living in say, Philly vs. a place like Chihuahua. "That's a pretty poor salary" certainly only has a useful meaning if living on a certain salary gives the same standard of living in Philly vs. Chihuahua.

Made sense to me.
 
  • #28
Pengwuino said:
When these kinda things are brought up, it makes me wonder exactly what the difference is between your average person living in say, Philly vs. a place like Chihuahua. "That's a pretty poor salary" certainly only has a useful meaning if living on a certain salary gives the same standard of living in Philly vs. Chihuahua.

Made sense to me.
That was exactly my question to Russ. He's been to Chihuahua, I haven't. I'm wondering what things cost there. On a salary under $30,000 in Philly, depending on whether he's also trying to support a family, and if health insurance will be included as a benefit, he might not be able to afford much more than a roach-infested hole in the wall apartment. What would he have had on $7000 in Chihuahua? Unless he was living in a shack without running water and was going hungry, I'm having a hard time believing he'd be better off moving to Philly. Maybe to the midwest somewhere, where you really can live on $21,000 to $28,000, at least if you're single and expect no luxuries.
 
  • #29
I highly doubt he'd go hungry, but I am sure he's not going to be living on brand name food like up here. I would think to make a good comparison, you'd have to compare the whole idea of living in philly vs. Chihuahua. How ones house is wouldn't be the whole story. Crime, education, proximity to governmental services (and how good they are). I have a suspicion that the housing would be better, but you'd still know you weren't living in a highly developed country.

Hell what am i saying, my whole mothers side of the family has experience in mexican cities, let's go find out.
 
  • #30
russ_watters said:
And just an example of how it is for legal immigrants, my company is currently in the process of bringing over someone we met on a job in Chihuahua last year. He's 25 and has a mechanical engineering degree. He works as a technician/installer of controls for HVAC systems, something that is typically done by non-degreed technicians in the US - it is very common to be overqualified for your job in Mexico. He makes on the order of about $7,000 a year, and we plan on paying him 3-4x that, which will put him at about 1/2 to 2/3 of what we'd pay an equivalent American citizen.
Since I am a serious pessimist...For the most part, it sounds like any major company moving their operations to Mexico for the lower labor costs. I think in the long run the guy will benefit, but it does sound like he's being taken advantage of. I know I could barely make it here on 28k, let alone in Philly. Also, your company sits on his visa...there is definitely an opportunity for abuse there. I don't see any impetus to treat this guy as any other employee and advance him at the same rate. If he is indeed a degreed engineer, why not pay him as one would a recent graduate?
 
  • #31
russ_watters said:
He makes on the order of about $7,000 a year, and we plan on paying him 3-4x that, which will put him at about 1/2 to 2/3 of what we'd pay an equivalent American citizen.
Would this not be a violation of the Equal Pay Act or of the Equal Employment Opportunity laws? I really don't know how these laws apply to non-citizens.
 
  • #32
[to Fred and Gokul] No, it would not be. He isn't really equivalent to "the equivalent American citizen". As you can imagine, there is an inherrent risk to my company in transplanting him from another country.

It is a serious risk for both the company and for him. That's a given. If he doesn't work out, we'll be stuck with him for two years, and if he does, he can expect to be rewarded quickly. He will have a contract.

Besides - being a small company, mine is not equipped to handle all that much risk. *I* started below the industry average in my job, but in 3.5 years, my pay has gone up by about 50%.
 
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  • #33
Moonbear said:
And does that really give him a better life? What can he afford on about $7000 a year in Chihuahua compared to that 3-4 X that in Philly? That's a pretty poor salary to live on in Philly.
At $21-$28k (I can't actually remember what we were going to pay him - it was probably toward the higher end), he'll be making enough to own a car and share an apartment in suburban Philly, and the general living conditions will be better than in Chihuahua.

Something else I didn't mention - he'll be getting a starting bonus. That's kinda a necessity just to get him here. It won't be much, but it should be enough to buy a cheap used car, pay the start of his insurance and pay his first month or two of rent.
cyrus said:
Four times 7k, he might as well work at wall-mart, he'll make more money.
Wall Mart starts people at $28k? I doubt that.
 
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  • #34
I'm not sure that a manager at WalMart even makes $28k. Nonetheless, the first job I ever held was in retail with no prior experience, and it took me all of four months to get promoted to a position that paid a wee bit over $25k. Heck, had I stayed in that job rather than opt to go to college, I'd likely now be making somewhere between $45-50k (assuming the company continued to grow at the rate it had been growing when I joined). It sucks (for lack of a better word) that someone with an engineering degree will be making about what I made in a basically entry-level position straight out of high school.

Just another reason to be glad I wasn't born in Mexico, I guess. I do think that anyone contending it isn't enough to live on, however, should remember back to their days as a student. I'm currently living on nothing but financial aid, which gives me around $15k a year after tuition and fees to live off of, and I'm living fairly comfortably with that. I'd never be able to support a family or buy a house, but I can certainly survive, eat well, and pursue basic recreational habits.
 
  • #35
You guys are perceiving this as a high risk move for him. Of course it is! What have we been talking about in this thread? :confused:

You have to remember, for both the skilled legal and unskilled legal, the risk is high, but the potential reward is also high.

We work with another company in Philly that transplants Indians and puts them up townhouses dormatory style. They seem happy with the situation, but I wouln't be and the guy we are bringing from Mexico will be better off.
 

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