Is the Word Spiritual Avoided Due to Fear of Religious Implications?

[olde drunk]

i just used the word 'spiritual' in another post. at that point, i realized that this word isn't used very much.

are we affraid that it has a religious implication?

do we avoid our own feelings of a spiritual existence for fear that it isn't 'enlightened'?

funny, using the word made me feel better, LOL.

peace,

 

[Zero]

I think it is more to do with the fact that the word is basically meaningless, because it means so many different things to so many people. If you have to explain exactly what it means to you every time you use it, why use that word at all?

 

[Mentat]

What does the word mean to you, olde drunk?

 

[phoenixthoth]

Originally posted by Zero
I think it is more to do with the fact that the word is basically meaningless, because it means so many different things to so many people. If you have to explain exactly what it means to you every time you use it, why use that word at all?

like the word consciousness?

 

[Kerrie]

many dictionaries, church's etc define spiritual as equal to religion...in my opinion, i feel this is incorrect...

one of my favorite quotes (don't take it too literal!):

religion is for those who fear going to hell
spirituality is for those who have been there

this quote (and i have no idea where it came from) i think helps define a little bit of a difference in the sense that religion is typically a fear based belief system, where spirituality is more of a self-made belief system...spirituality is about a person's own path down the road to self-discovery and self growth...modern religion completely lacks this, and is more of a social organization with a set of relgious rules that applies to everyone...

 

[olde drunk]

Originally posted by Mentat
What does the word mean to you, olde drunk?

to me it means "that part of me that ain't physical". nothing elaborate.

peace,

 

[olde drunk]

Kerrie

Originally posted by Kerrie
many dictionaries, church's etc define spiritual as equal to religion...in my opinion, i feel this is incorrect...

one of my favorite quotes (don't take it too literal!):

religion is for those who fear going to hell
spirituality is for those who have been there

this quote (and i have no idea where it came from) i think helps define a little bit of a difference in the sense that religion is typically a fear based belief system, where spirituality is more of a self-made belief system...spirituality is about a person's own path down the road to self-discovery and self growth...modern religion completely lacks this, and is more of a social organization with a set of relgious rules that applies to everyone...

kudos! you deserve to be a mentor!

i'm a simple,

 

[Mentat]

Originally posted by olde drunk
to me it means "that part of me that ain't physical". nothing elaborate.

peace,

How do you know there is such a part of you?

 

[Kerrie]

Originally posted by Mentat
How do you know there is such a part of you?

mentat, the drive and inspiration to be a better person, to be more aware, the drive to learn i think can be defined as basic spirituality...we are not automatic biological robots. the desire for some of us to achieve knowledge or great feats is motivated by our spirit, thus making us spiritual-and i think spiritual is often confused with religious. let's make a loud distinction, as i think many human beings are looking for a spiritual outlet and think religion is automatically the way to it---i certainly disagree with this.

how do we know there is such a part of us (spiritual)? well, this begs the question: does biology dictate our spirit, or does the spirit dictate our biology? i don't believe we have the *technology* to discect spirit, we have come a long way, but to claim we know all about human nature is quite the ignorant one...there is nothing magical or mystical about spirit, in essence, our spirituality is the part that makes us human-whether we are artists, philosophers, or scientists---all of these have one thing in common, and that is to better ourselves as a human being.

 

[Zero]

Hey! There's nothing wrong with being a biological robot, is there?!?

 

[Fliption]

Originally posted by phoenixthoth
like the word consciousness?

And let's not forget the word "materialism".

 

[Kerrie]

Originally posted by Zero
Hey! There's nothing wrong with being a biological robot, is there?!?

not at all...but i also don't see biological robots have a great ability to play guitars either...

 

[Zero]

Originally posted by Kerrie
not at all...but i also don't see biological robots have a great ability to play guitars either...

That's unfair...I do pretty good considering I have short fingers and no formal training...

 

[olde drunk]

Originally posted by Mentat
How do you know there is such a part of you?

after 60+ years of looking for answers, i have mine. if you believe that this is all there is, you will become depressed and fall victim to other illnesses. no, there ain't no way to 'prove' this other than my observations thru life and how peoples beliefs influenced their life.

i am the supreme authority of what i believe and espouse. you might be able to quote a mile long list of recognized experts on any given subject. until they or you, show me, within my daily experience that your point of view or belief is better than mine, i'll retain my refined knowledge.

it is nice to fantasize about the matrix, or a computer generated world, but how does that concept help you enjoy a better tomorrow? for me, there is something beyond the physical, I've witnessed 'my proof'. experience is the only teacher. i wish you the same relevation.

peace,

 

[Fliption]

What's a biological robot?

 

[olde drunk]

shhh, don't let kerrie see this

any one know if kerrie is a mature female looking for fun??

i sure like the way s/he thinks. sorry I won't go gay.

peace,

 

[Zero]

Originally posted by Fliption
What's a biological robot?

That's what Kerrie calls the materialistic version of a human being.

 

[Royce]

I've never met a sentient biological robot. Is that something like Santa Clause? Does it own a pink unicorn?

 

[Zero]

Originally posted by Royce
I've never met a sentient biological robot. Is that something like Santa Clause? Does it own a pink unicorn?

Very funny, Royce. I thought pink unicorns were YOUR department? You, and the rest of the non-materialist crowd, can be convinced to believe in anything that makes you feel warm and fuzzy, after all.

 

[raptor5618]

Originally posted by Kerrie
many dictionaries, church's etc define spiritual as equal to religion...in my opinion, i feel this is incorrect...

one of my favorite quotes (don't take it too literal!):

religion is for those who fear going to hell
spirituality is for those who have been there

this quote (and i have no idea where it came from) i think helps define a little bit of a difference in the sense that religion is typically a fear based belief system, where spirituality is more of a self-made belief system...spirituality is about a person's own path down the road to self-discovery and self growth...modern religion completely lacks this, and is more of a social organization with a set of relgious rules that applies to everyone...

I think this is one of the best quotes and explanations that I have read in a long time. The only thing I would change is at the end where you say "rules that applies to everyone" I think you should have said "rules that it demands are applied to everyone" I find that much of what is considered religeous is in fact pretty hateful. Believe as they believe or else.

For instance this gay marriage thing. I have been thinking and thinking and trying to come up with one reason why it could be a bad thing. If two people are commited to each other why shouldn't they have the same rights as others who just happen to be of the opposite sex. When I hear of the awful things that happened to one side of a gay couple when one passes away I think it is a total tragedy. Ok reliegion does not have to embrace it as a religeous tie but why are they against it as a civil matter. We allow business partnerships of people of the same sex and we allow marriages of atheists.

Ok I got off track but I did what to thank you for these entry as it states very clearly what I have been trying to understand for a while.

 

[Kerrie]

Originally posted by Zero
That's unfair...I do pretty good considering I have short fingers and no formal training...

i am sure you do really well zero, especially considering you don't have formal training...but it's the desire and drive in you that plays and does well...and all i am saying is i think this is what spirituality is---nothing more, nothing less...

 

[Zero]

Originally posted by Kerrie
i am sure you do really well zero, especially considering you don't have formal training...but it's the desire and drive in you that plays and does well...and all i am saying is i think this is what spirituality is---nothing more, nothing less...

And all I am saying is that drive is also biological.

 

[raptor5618]

There is most definately something spiritual about playing a guitar or any instrument for that matter. I picked up a guitar that was not played in many years because its owner died tragically at the age of 22. The guitar sat in its case for 10 or 15 years. I was dating his sister and said that it really should be played. I tuned it up with the old strings and it played and even sounded good. I bought new strings, tuned it and started playing.

What came out was not from me. It sounded so different than how I play and it was as if I was watching myself play. The hair stood up on my arms as I continued to play. What I played came from somewhere else that is for sure. The next time I played well that feeling was gone and it was back to me playing again. Not really proof of anything but sometimes when you play it is like you are taken over by such a feeling that what comes out seems as if it was created by another. Sure practice and ability allow this to happen but at times it only supplies part of the equation.

 

[Zero]

Originally posted by raptor5618
There is most definately something spiritual about playing a guitar or any instrument for that matter. I picked up a guitar that was not played in many years because its owner died tragically at the age of 22. The guitar sat in its case for 10 or 15 years. I was dating his sister and said that it really should be played. I tuned it up with the old strings and it played and even sounded good. I bought new strings, tuned it and started playing.

What came out was not from me. It sounded so different than how I play and it was as if I was watching myself play. The hair stood up on my arms as I continued to play. What I played came from somewhere else that is for sure. The next time I played well that feeling was gone and it was back to me playing again. Not really proof of anything but sometimes when you play it is like you are taken over by such a feeling that what comes out seems as if it was created by another. Sure practice and ability allow this to happen but at times it only supplies part of the equation.

Of course it came from you...your mind has "hidden" levels, some of which only express themselves in art.

 

[phoenixthoth]

spirituality is about a person's own path down the road to self-discovery and self growth...modern religion completely lacks this, and is more of a social organization with a set of relgious rules that applies to everyone

what do you think about the following quotes from the new testament:

“But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.”
--Matt 6:33
“Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.”
--Luke 17:21

 

[Kerrie]

Originally posted by Zero
And all I am saying is that drive is also biological.

well, we could argue all day of whether the spiritual motivates the biological, or the biological motivates the spirituality...it's a matter of perspective truly as we don't fully know the answer, however humanity doesn't create art, music, ideas for purely biological reasons.

 

[Kerrie]

Originally posted by phoenixthoth
what do you think about the following quotes from the new testament:

“But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.”
--Matt 6:33
“Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.”
--Luke 17:21

i really don't think much of the bible honestly...the language of it doesn't speak to me.

 

[olde drunk]

phonixthoh

i subscribe to the second and believe that number 1 springs from number 2.

all is within. our inner beliefs and feelings are projected outward to create our experience. this includes our understanding of a god.

peace,

 

[Zero]

Originally posted by Kerrie
well, we could argue all day of whether the spiritual motivates the biological, or the biological motivates the spirituality...it's a matter of perspective truly as we don't fully know the answer, however humanity doesn't create art, music, ideas for purely biological reasons.

Why do you make these sort of declarations?

 

[Mentat]

Originally posted by Fliption

Originally posted by phoenixthoth
like the word consciousness?

And let's not forget the word "materialism".

God help us

 

[Mentat]

Originally posted by Kerrie
well, we could argue all day of whether the spiritual motivates the biological, or the biological motivates the spirituality...it's a matter of perspective truly as we don't fully know the answer, however humanity doesn't create art, music, ideas for purely biological reasons.

Wouldn't it be that much more interesting and miraculous if the "drive" that you speak of were a purely biological function of a purely biological being? Then you'd have to reconsider many of the more primary assumptions you've taken for granted (I don't mean "you" personally; I mean people in general, for the most part).

Have you seen my "Made of Meat" thread?

 

[Kerrie]

Originally posted by Mentat
Wouldn't it be that much more interesting and miraculous if the "drive" that you speak of were a purely biological function of a purely biological being? Then you'd have to reconsider many of the more primary assumptions you've taken for granted (I don't mean "you" personally; I mean people in general, for the most part).

Have you seen my "Made of Meat" thread?

mentat, here is my perspective of it...if you have a television, that's great, now you have a tv that has the potential to provide you entertainment for hours...but without electricity, some kind of live force, it does you no good...just like a human vegetable on life support, without them being alive in the brain to make individual decisions they are just flesh being kept alive by machinery...

cutting life on Earth down to just the bilogical is fine, but without the other half of it-a spirit of some sort-life would not exist...your drive to learn, understand is part biological of course, however your degree of that drive is where the human spirit kicks in...as for human instinct, yes i totally believe that is biological...

we can say this is fact: science has not been able to scientize the human or animal spirit...does this mean it doesn't exist because we can't catagorize, label and discect it?

 

[Kerrie]

Originally posted by Zero
Why do you make these sort of declarations?

wow zero, is that the best you could respond? it's obvious you disagree, so accept and let's move on.

 

[Zero]

Originally posted by Kerrie
wow zero, is that the best you could respond? it's obvious you disagree, so accept and let's move on.

Well, no, I really want an answer...why CAN'T things be biological? My need to eat is biological, why not my need to make music? Birds sing, animals dance as part of their mating, that is biological, isn't it?

 

[olde drunk]

ZERO

may i intrude?

ok, thanks. i would suggest that instinct is a part of an animals consciousness, whether human or otherwise. you cannot tell me that DNA or whatever imprints a young kangaroo to climb all the way up into the mother's pouch for a drink. possible? yes. probable? not much.

hunger, desire etc drive the young roo, but it is too immature to have a biological awareness of where to go.

logical, circumstantial information saves a ton of headaches when trying to wrap my brain around a complicated issue. mating, singing maybe biological, but the 'desire' to mate or sing is beyond physical.

peace,

 

[Kerrie]

Originally posted by Zero
Well, no, I really want an answer...why CAN'T things be biological? My need to eat is biological, why not my need to make music? Birds sing, animals dance as part of their mating, that is biological, isn't it?

because spirituality is the one thing that is indidual...the ability and drive to create art unlike another is truly spiritual in my opinion...if we were pure biological robots (and i emphasize robot as automatic and non-individualized), then the ability and drive to create your own music in your own style most likely wouldn't exist (in my opinion)

this isn't a case of biological vs spiritual, but like the yin and yang-you need both to flourish as a human being...just existing is purely biological.

zero, i personally think you exemplify a lot of spirit in these forums by expressing yourself so strongly. if you were a biological robot, you wouldn't give a damn of expressing what you say is true and right (in your opinion of course :D ).

 

[selfAdjoint]

As the vegans never tire of pointing out, animals have personalities and "spirit" according to their capabilities too. It's a straw man argument to say that the antithesis of an ensouled person is a robot. Either that or begging the question, because that difference is precisely what the whole discussion is about. Can a being without a soul be "human" and creative, and all? I say yes.

 

[Kerrie]

Originally posted by selfAdjoint
As the vegans never tire of pointing out, animals have personalities and "spirit" according to their capabilities too. It's a straw man argument to say that the antithesis of an ensouled person is a robot. Either that or begging the question, because that difference is precisely what the whole discussion is about. Can a being without a soul be "human" and creative, and all? I say yes.

i am naming the humanity and creativity as the spiritual, nothing more nothing less

 

[Zero]

Originally posted by Kerrie
because spirituality is the one thing that is indidual...the ability and drive to create art unlike another is truly spiritual in my opinion...if we were pure biological robots (and i emphasize robot as automatic and non-individualized), then the ability and drive to create your own music in your own style most likely wouldn't exist (in my opinion)

this isn't a case of biological vs spiritual, but like the yin and yang-you need both to flourish as a human being...just existing is purely biological.

zero, i personally think you exemplify a lot of spirit in these forums by expressing yourself so strongly. if you were a biological robot, you wouldn't give a damn of expressing what you say is true and right (in your opinion of course :D ).

Hey, robots can be individual, too. Since my hardware is biological, and each "blueprint" is unique, there's nothing in my biology that would make me anything other than an individual. Especially since brain development is based largely on environmental influences, even "identical" twins are unique.

 

[Royce]

Here your wrong in degree, Zero. It has been shown time and time again that identical twins raised apart have remarkably similar tastes behaviors and lives pointing more to genes than environment.

Why does on being a biological being preclude one having a soul or spirit? If sentience, consciousness and awareness or emergent phenomena why can't spirit be emergent. I can see on no biological survival value for art and the appreciation of beauty whether music, painting, sculptor, dance, or nature. It is part of what makes us human instead of cows.

By the way, I had an anthropology teacher tell us that humans have no instincts. We have and are born with reflexes but not instincts and have to learn everything. After a lot of thought I had to agree with him for I could not think of one instinct that we are born with.

 

[Zero]

Originally posted by Royce
Here your wrong in degree, Zero. It has been shown time and time again that identical twins raised apart have remarkably similar tastes behaviors and lives pointing more to genes than environment.

Why does on being a biological being preclude one having a soul or spirit? If sentience, consciousness and awareness or emergent phenomena why can't spirit be emergent. I can see on no biological survival value for art and the appreciation of beauty whether music, painting, sculptor, dance, or nature. It is part of what makes us human instead of cows.

By the way, I had an anthropology teacher tell us that humans have no instincts. We have and are born with reflexes but not instincts and have to learn everything. After a lot of thought I had to agree with him for I could not think of one instinct that we are born with.

You sort of contradict yourself on this one...are you saying that biological similarity would mean that "souls" are also very similar? That makes little sense.

"Spirit" is an undefinable, unprovable null phrase. Nothing precludes it, but nothing shows that it is extant or required either.

BTW, human beings absolutely do have instincts and biological programing, certain things we are hardwired for. If not, how is it that people of completely different backrounds, social situations, etc, react in the exact same way to stimulus? Listen to Loveline on the radio for a month, and notice how Dr. Drew and Adam can tell a person's "life story" in about 2 minutes of telephone conversation.

 

[Kerrie]

Originally posted by Zero
Hey, robots can be individual, too. Since my hardware is biological, and each "blueprint" is unique, there's nothing in my biology that would make me anything other than an individual. Especially since brain development is based largely on environmental influences, even "identical" twins are unique.

i find it interesting you didn't address my point regarding your own spirit displayed in this forum (my attempt to "prove" what i am referring to as spirit)...here i provide proof, but you perhaps don't care for the term "spirit" because of it's close relation to religion (?)...who knows, but i seem to remember a time when you proclaimed to be open minded but not so much to let your brains fall out...i thought that was quite balanced in being objective, but no more does it seem that you display this quality.

in any event, i am done trying to help you understand where i am coming from, even though i think i provided a good example of your own spirit being expressed in this forum (i can't see a robot expressing it's opinion as strongly as you do in a forum)---for now, i would like to discuss this with those who would rather share new ideas over argue over defintions and such...

bottom line is, the human life is charged from something, otherwise our flesh would literally rot...this is what is basically spiritual in my opinion.

 

[Royce]

Originally posted by Zero
You sort of contradict yourself on this one...are you saying that biological similarity would mean that "souls" are also very similar? That makes little sense.

Souls would be no more similar or dissimilar than personalities and appearance. I don't see the contradiction just too many typos or what your getting at.

"Spirit" is an undefinable, unprovable null phrase. Nothing precludes it, but nothing shows that it is extant or required either.

This would depend on your or my understanding of the word spirit. If, if is exists is not material or objective; therefor, a null phrase in science. Outside of science as in ever day life spirit has many meaning and is easily defined depending on usage i.e. school spirit, esprit de corps, Spirit of St. Louis etc. There is also that which make of different from your equally nonsensical biological robot, Zombie (?).

BTW, human beings absolutely do have instincts and biological programing, certain things we are hardwired for. If not, how is it that people of completely different backgrounds, social situations, etc, react in the exact same way to stimulus? Listen to Loveline on the radio for a month, and notice how Dr. Drew and Adam can tell a person's "life story" in about 2 minutes of telephone conversation.

Look up the biological definition of "instinct", essentially, an innate complex set of behavior not learned and repeated without deviation as in a computer program of true robotic instruction sets. Name one instinct that we are born with and is not learned. I couldn't. If you are a parent you should have the experience necessary. If your not a parent then you will have to ask those that are of take someone else's word for it. I am a parent and grandparent but no expert on the subject. I am only repeating what an anthropologist told me/us. Social behavior is learned not instinctive as children grown up in isolation from other humans has shown.

 

[Zero]

Originally posted by Kerrie
i find it interesting you didn't address my point regarding your own spirit displayed in this forum (my attempt to "prove" what i am referring to as spirit)...here i provide proof, but you perhaps don't care for the term "spirit" because of it's close relation to religion (?)...who knows, but i seem to remember a time when you proclaimed to be open minded but not so much to let your brains fall out...i thought that was quite balanced in being objective, but no more does it seem that you display this quality.

in any event, i am done trying to help you understand where i am coming from, even though i think i provided a good example of your own spirit being expressed in this forum (i can't see a robot expressing it's opinion as strongly as you do in a forum)---for now, i would like to discuss this with those who would rather share new ideas over argue over defintions and such...

bottom line is, the human life is charged from something, otherwise our flesh would literally rot...this is what is basically spiritual in my opinion.

Awww, Kerrie...does this mean you won't be my date to the spring cotillion?

My personality comes through...I just consider it to be a manefestation of my unique wiring.

 

[Kerrie]

Originally posted by Zero
My personality comes through...I just consider it to be a manefestation of my unique wiring.

i certainly agree, but without electricity, no manifestation will occur i am comparing the spirit to electricity...

 

[Zero]

Originally posted by Kerrie
i certainly agree, but without electricity, no manifestation will occur i am comparing the spirit to electricity...

Bioelectricity, Kerrie! Neurons firing, signals being generated by my brain, sending directions to my fingers, typing at you at 90 words a minute(hunt and peck, no less!)

 

[Kerrie]

Originally posted by Zero
Bioelectricity, Kerrie! Neurons firing, signals being generated by my brain, sending directions to my fingers, typing at you at 90 words a minute(hunt and peck, no less!)

so this will to to continue on arguing about this is automatic? or does a robot have the need to continue convincing me of his side? the way we function can obviously be explained by science, however there still is the "program" that commands these functions, the pure will and desire...why is your brain commanding you to express your opinions and feelings, especially so strongly? because of your will/drive/spirit/need for your individual expression...this is why people create art, make music, philosophize, etc---the human spirit...the human being (or any sort of life for that matter) would not exist without the will to, thus you have the "marriage" of spirit and matter to make life...i would say you are well proving your spirit to express the non-existance of your spirit...how very ironic.

wow, i would have to say you are a true biological robot fundamentalist.

 

[Zero]

Originally posted by Kerrie
so this will to to continue on arguing about this is automatic? or does a robot have the need to continue convincing me of his side? the way we function can obviously be explained by science, however there still is the "program" that commands these functions, the pure will and desire...why is your brain commanding you to express your opinions and feelings, especially so strongly? because of your will/drive/spirit/need for your individual expression...this is why people create art, make music, philosophize, etc---the human spirit...the human being (or any sort of life for that matter) would not exist without the will to, thus you have the "marriage" of spirit and matter to make life...i would say you are well proving your spirit to express the non-existance of your spirit...how very ironic.

wow, i would have to say you are a true biological robot fundamentalist.

Most things I do are completely automatic. I assume (so correct me if I am wrong) but most of the things that we all do are automatic, with just a nudge of what you call "will" to get things rolling.

I'm going to be mostly polite about the whole "need to create art" business, except for this: why do guys learn to play guitar?

*edited to add* I think it is interesting that being a bio-robot doesn't bother me a bit. Certainly, it doesn't bother me as much as it bothers some people that I suggest it.

 

[Deeviant]

Originally posted by Kerrie

wow, i would have to say you are a true biological robot fundamentalist.

I just so happen to be a card carrying member of the biological robot fundamentalists so try to be just alittle more sensitive to our insensitivity.

Oh yeah, I play guitar too. I learned guitar and seek to be a performer because it will allow me to... ah.. express myself. Yup, that's it, express myself.

 

[Zero]

Originally posted by Deeviant
I just so happen to be a card carrying member of the biological robot fundamentalists so try to be just alittle more sensitive to our insensitivity.

Oh yeah, I play guitar too. I learned guitar and seek to be a performer because it will allow me to... ah.. express myself. Yup, that's it, express myself.

You lying POS!