B Is There a Connection Between Thermostats and Shower Water Temperature?

[Althepump]

If I turn up thermostat to 70, the rooms get warm. I notice shower head gives warmer water at this temperature. If I turn thermostat lower, the rooms get cooler as it should be. Again I notice shower gives less warm water. What is the connection? Or is it coincidental? It happens too often that there may be a connection.

I ask this because I am aware that thermostat deals only with air. Not water.

 

[Drakkith]

Perhaps your pipes aren't as insulated as they should be?

 

[Althepump]

If I turn up thermostat to 70, the rooms get warm. I notice shower head gives warmer water at this temperature. If I turn thermostat lower, the rooms get cooler as it should be. Again I notice shower gives less warm water. Is it coincidental?

Reddit: I assume make room temperature changes on thermostat will have no effect on the temperature of shower water at all.

 

[sophiecentaur]

Two effects coinciding, I suggest: If the temperature control on the shower is not too good (and they can be poor) then the final water temperature could maybe not be independent of the hot water temperature. Also, it is not uncommon to find that the thermostatic control of the hot water supply is not too good and, with the room thermostat turned high, the boiler runs for longer per hour (to feed the radiators more). That could result in more heating water is getting into the hot water tank and raising the hot water temperature. I have definitely experienced domestic hot water temperature going up when the boiler runs more.
To sum up: two imperfect feedback / control systems are allowing the overall output value to vary when it shouldn't.
Perhaps you could measure the temperature of your hot water as the boiler duty cycle changes.??

 

[Althepump]

Beyond my grasp. When you say thermometer control of the shower, I guess you mean the dial knob that use my hand. You are right about the feed to radiators. It has hot water pipe with fins inside the radiator. More question: does shower share the same water tank as the radiator pipes. Maybe. But when water leaves water tank to boiler. It has separate pipes. One to radiator and one to shower. I am assuming shower has its own separate thermostat hooked to the dial knob. Also the wall thermostat for radiators.

 

[sophiecentaur]

Beyond my grasp. When you say thermometer control of the shower, I guess you mean the dial knob that use my hand. You are right about the feed to radiators. It has hot water pipe with fins inside the radiator. More question: does shower share the same water tank as the radiator pipes. Maybe. But when water leaves water tank to boiler. It has separate pipes. One to radiator and one to shower. I am assuming shower has its own separate thermostat hooked to the dial knob. Also the wall thermostat for radiators.

Most systems have common hot water fed to the radiators and to a heat exchanger in the 'hot tank' (if they are not 'combo' systems) with a valve to push the boiler water to one, the other or both.. There is a thermostat in the boiler that keeps the water through the boiler at a pre-set temperature (when the boiler and pump are running). There is also a 'tank thermostat' which let's water into the hot tank heat exchanger when needed. The temperature of the water in the hot tank should be kept at the setting of that thermostat but it seems to be affected by how long the boiler is supplying the rads. I always reckon that there changeover valve is not perfect. It could also be affected by how well the heat exchanger in the tank works. Bottom line is that I think the tank water is actually heated more when the boiler is on a lot (for the rads). What happens in the shower control will depend on how well it can control the temperature by mixing hot and cold. (Possibly not very well) So the water from the head will not be the same temperature but be affected by the hot tank temperature. So two controls are operating in tandem. If they were perfect, the shower temperature would be constant - but they, apparently ain't!

 

[Althepump]

Sophiecentaur,

Thank for the explanation. I will read again a few more times. Interesting.
Thank for the tips.

Alan

 

[Althepump]

When you say hot water tank, do you refer to water expansion tank?

 

[sophiecentaur]

You need to give me some help here. I don't know whether or not your system has a hot tank(=hot water storage tank). Did you think to google Domestic Hot Water Systems? There are a million images to pick from to find one like yours.
I wonder why you asked the original question. There's no way anyone could say "turn lever x and it will be sorted" without some adequate description of your system.

 

[Althepump]

Oh I see. I just googled and now know what a water tank looks like. I will take picture tonite or tomorrow and forward it. I did not know that the tank can hold hot water.
By now I gave you big help. Thanks. You huge help!

 

[CWatters]

Does the tank have a thermostat on it? If so then its a hot tank or thermal store. Otherwise it could be a cold water tank.

How many pipes go in and out of the boiler/furnace? Two or three usually.

Somewhere there is usually a valve that switches the hot flow from the boiler to either the hot water system or the heating system. If that has a fault which prevents it switching over to the heating fully then that could cause the problem.

Are there any overflow pipes on the outside of the house and are they leaking water? If yes and that water is warm that could point to a fault in the heat exchanger in the hot water tank.

The are probably many other possible causes.

 

[Althepump]

You ask many good questions. Interesting. I will try to answer by Wednesday if not Tuesday evening with picture of the water tank.

 

[sophiecentaur]

Does the tank have a thermostat on it? If so then its a hot tank or thermal store. Otherwise it could be a cold water tank.

How many pipes go in and out of the boiler/furnace? Two or three usually.

Somewhere there is usually a valve that switches the hot flow from the boiler to either the hot water system or the heating system. If that has a fault which prevents it switching over to the heating fully then that could cause the problem.

Are there any overflow pipes on the outside of the house and are they leaking water? If yes and that water is warm that could point to a fault in the heat exchanger in the hot water tank.

The are probably many other possible causes.

I don't think this is exactly a 'fault' condition - just poor temperature regulation in the system. I think that the tank thermostat system is probably responsible. It measures the temperature of the side of the tank, about 1/3 of the way up from the bottom. It knows nothing of the distribution or circulation of the warming water in the tank and the very crude heat exchanger (a simple coil) will perform differently as the heating water temperature varies. When the rads are on, the boiler water will be hotter when the valve starts to deliver to the hot tank. Simple control theory doesn't account for this sort of thing - it assumes that a thermostat always does its job and that it will produce the same result always. I fought several incarnations of my last heating system and gave up fooling around with the tank stat. It just seems to do what it likes.
If the OP has a system like mine plus an inadequate shower stat, it doesn't surprise me that he gets the results he does.
I Could suggest that althepump makes a note of the actual hot water (wash basin) variations when the rads are on and off. If it varies a lot then I reckon that's his problem. Also, what is the effect of flushing the lavatory or turning on bath taps etc. That would test how good the shower stat is - some of them are rubbishy and some are very good.

 

[Althepump]

Does the tank have a thermostat on it? If so then its a hot tank or thermal store. Otherwise it could be a cold water tank.
The pictures don't show a thermostat. I think it's just cold water.

How many pipes go in and out of the boiler/furnace? Two or three usually.
I may check this later.

Somewhere there is usually a valve that switches the hot flow from the boiler to either the hot water system or the heating system. If that has a fault which prevents it switching over to the heating fully then that could cause the problem.

Are there any overflow pipes on the outside of the house and are they leaking water? If yes and that water is warm that could point to a fault in the heat exchanger in the hot water tank.

The are probably many other possible causes.

Does the tank have a thermostat on it? If so then its a hot tank or thermal store. Otherwise it could be a cold water tank.

How many pipes go in and out of the boiler/furnace? Two or three usually.

Somewhere there is usually a valve that switches the hot flow from the boiler to either the hot water system or the heating system. If that has a fault which prevents it switching over to the heating fully then that could cause the problem.

Are there any overflow pipes on the outside of the house and are they leaking water? If yes and that water is warm that could point to a fault in the heat exchanger in the hot water tank.

The are probably many other possible causes.

 

[sophiecentaur]

You have completely flummoxed me now. That picture seems to be of a water softener. It should never get hot because it's fed with cold water.
Also, you seems to have quoted CWatters twice and mad no comment.
You could find yourself in hot water with mods for this.

 

[Althepump]

Sophiecentaur,

First thank you for pointing out it is water softener. It's.

I tried to delete CWatters w/o comment, but I could not. I will have to figure it out tonight.

 

[Althepump]

You have completely flummoxed me now. That picture seems to be of a water softener. It should never get hot because it's fed with cold water.
Also, you seems to have quoted CWatters twice and mad no comment.
You could find yourself in hot water with mods for this.

Second note: I don't know how these CWatters w/o comments get there. It must have happened when I upload pictures of the water softener.
I must have done something wrong. I hope the mods can just delete the #14 posting quickly. Or just the whole topic to make it look less messy!
I just could not delete them. Thank you for making this notice.

 

[Althepump]

You have completely flummoxed me now. That picture seems to be of a water softener. It should never get hot because it's fed with cold water.
Also, you seems to have quoted CWatters twice and mad no comment.
You could find yourself in hot water with mods for this.

Thank again for identifying the water softener. It appears I don't have water tank at all. Hope mods will delete #14 posting soon.

 

[sophiecentaur]

Thank again for identifying the water softener. It appears I don't have water tank at all. Hope mods will delete #14 posting soon.

So your boiler will be a 'combo', which turns on on-demand when you require hot water (?). That would be an easy thing to check- stand by the boiler and ask someone to run the shower for a minute or two, with the CH turned off.
There are several different designs of combi circuits. Normal combi boilers (link which you must look at!) do not heat the hot water directly but pass boiler water through a high capacity heat exchanger which is in the boiler itself. I suspect that, when the CH is in operation, the heating water may be hotter because the boiler gets cranked up higher with the flame modulator. So the supply to the HW heat exchanger will be a bit hotter - giving you hotter hot water. It could be a slight fault in the boiler.
Nevertheless, it still looks to me that the shower thermostat is not very good. AS I mentioned before, that can be checked by standing in the shower and getting someone to flush the loo and turn on cold taps fully. If you leap out of the shower, the stat isn't working too well.

 

[Althepump]

You have completely flummoxed me now. That picture seems to be of a water softener. It should never get hot because it's fed with cold water.
Also, you seems to have quoted CWatters twice and mad no comment.
You could find yourself in hot water with mods for this.

I think I know how it happened. I did add comments wth same font size

So your boiler will be a 'combo', which turns on on-demand when you require hot water (?). That would be an easy thing to check- stand by the boiler and ask someone to run the shower for a minute or two, with the CH turned off.
There are several different designs of combi circuits. Normal combi boilers (link which you must look at!) do not heat the hot water directly but pass boiler water through a high capacity heat exchanger which is in the boiler itself. I suspect that, when the CH is in operation, the heating water may be hotter because the boiler gets cranked up higher with the flame modulator. So the supply to the HW heat exchanger will be a bit hotter - giving you hotter hot water. It could be a slight fault in the boiler.
Nevertheless, it still looks to me that the shower thermostat is not very good. AS I mentioned before, that can be checked by standing in the shower and getting someone to flush the loo and turn on cold taps fully. If you leap out of the shower, the stat isn't working too well.

Quoted "which turns on on-demand when you require hot water" is an excellent reply! It is exactly what is happening every time I turn on the shower. I always have to wait a full minute or two before I feel warm/hot water. I am still trying to figure out what CH is.

 

[Althepump]

I think I know how it happened. I did add comments wth same font sizeQuoted "which turns on on-demand when you require hot water" is an excellent reply! It is exactly what is happening every time I turn on the shower. I always have to wait a full minute or two before I feel warm/hot water. I am still trying to figure out what CH is.

Central heating

 

[sophiecentaur]

Sorry. CH = Central heating.
If the "CH" is already on, the hot water will come out of your taps quicker. Combis can be very annoying to use. The heat output is not high and it can take ages to run a bath of decently warm water. It the system has a hot water tank, the water is instantly available and you can get a bath full in no time. Disadvantage is that a tank full of hot water is losing heat all the time and that means using more fuel.

 

[Althepump]

I see now about the advantage/disadvantage of the hot water tank.Good ans. My CH is always on. I never go downstairs to flip the on/off switch. The hot water from the kitchen tap turns on very instantly ...always...cuz the boiler is right below. It is the shortest and the best hot water. There are two showers 25 feet way five ft apart from one another. I already mention the first shower. The other shower (second one) is worse; it's attached to bath tub...takes forever to bring hot water. Something to do with pipes ...valves ...plumbing..cuz it uses same water! I am focusing on the first shower now. Thank for the help. You have already spent considerable time.

 

[Lowedown]

Is your furnace/boiler close to the hot water heater? If they are both in the same room, the heat from the furnace/boiler may be also heating the hot water tank or the pipe to the shower may run next to the furnace/boiler and would get extra heating.

 

[Althepump]

I am with Petro Oil company. The link: http://www.petro.com/why-petro/resources/articles/how-your-oil-fired-heating-system-works may help what mine basically looks like. I will forward you the picture tomorrow. Maybe I may get model number.

I have boiler. Boiler is oil fired for water only. When water becomes hot, it goes to baseboards and then go back to the boiler. Furnace is for air, but I don't have it. I believe hot water heater is inside the boiler. It indeed looks like furnace, but it has no steam pipes to bring hot air around the house. I just get heat from hot water.

I don't see any hot water tank.

Copied and pasted below. Picture on typical hydronic system is what I have. It does not show hot water tank.
Ignore the picture next below about typical warm air system.
How your oil-fired heating system works

 

[Althepump]

Add comments: I believe you mean heat exchanger. I guess the same as water heater. That is all I can see in basement besides water softener tank.

 

[Althepump]

You may take a look at the pictures of my boiler. You may say something about the missing water heater. It may be inside.

 

[Khashishi]

Your hot water may be insulated, but is your cold water? Your cold water temperature probably depends on the room temperature.

 

[Althepump]

hot water in the copper pipes right near the boiler is not insulated. But about 30 ft away from boiler the hot water pipes are insulated to every bedroom. Are you asking if cold water pipes are insulated,too? The answer is no.

 

[Althepump]

You may take a look at the pictures of my boiler. You may say something about the missing water heater. It may be inside.

This electric hot water heater below may be the one I have.

 

[Althepump]

I begin to realize that I have electric hot water heater inside boiler. The heater with coils bring electricity to make water hot through the coils. Then why do I have oil tank that holds 200 gallons of heating oil? Do I have oil fired boiler?

 

[CWatters]

Oil boilers have a flue/chimney for the combustion products. I don't see one I the photos.

There must be some model numbers on the boiler somewhere that you can Google.

 

[Althepump]

Yes, on right of 0121.jpg shows 8 or 10 inch duct that goes into cement wall to chimney.

 

[Althepump]

CWatters,
My basic question: why need water heaters if we use oil fired boilers? Boilers are to make water hot. I will check boiler again tmw for model and look up myself on web.

 

[Althepump]

The manufacturer is Acroliner. The web says it's oil fired hot water boiler with a tankless coil. The description appears to tell me it both oil fired burner and an electric heater with coil.

I am not able to get model no and series. Too fine wears out over the years. The boiler has to be over 60 yrs old.

 

[russ_watters]

My basic question: why need water heaters if we use oil fired boilers?

Boilers are closed-loop and are only there for heating. They can have an additional feature that runs a separate loop to heat potable water, but that is an optional extra.

 

[sophiecentaur]

This thread is getting more and more 'interesting'. A bit like speculations about the composition of distant stars and planets.

Boilers are closed-loop and are only there for heating. They can have an additional feature that runs a separate loop to heat potable water, but that is an optional extra.

You have fallen into the trap that I fell into on an earlier thread. "Boilers" are different, all over the world, apparently. (At least in the most important places. lol)
In the UK, "boilers" (for domestic use) were initially there for heating domestic water only. We had running hot water, decades before Central Heating. Over the, systems were :
With hot water tank (sometimes with an electrical immersion heater included):
Hot water, gravity operated,
HW and CH, both gravity operated
HW, gravity and CH pumped
HW and CH, both pumped.
Then:
NoTank - Combi System
I still can't be sure if the OP's system is one of the above.

The earlier thread about domestic Steam systems in the US was an eye opener for me. They seem to be a lot of trouble for domestic use but, with a full time janitor to keep them going, in a large apartment block, the higher heating capacity would make them attractive in cold winters. I Googled Acroliner boilers and there's a whole other world out there! I must say, theUK systems are a lot less threatening and seem more user friendly.

The heater with coils bring electricity to make water hot through the coils.

I hesitate to suggest anything about such an alien engineering culture but the electric input to the boiler could be just for ignition and oil pump. It would be a surprise to me if there were a heating coil inside the boiler itself; an electrical element would be unlikely to have the power (10kW+) to supply the needs of instant domestic hot water.

 

[russ_watters]

This thread is getting more and more 'interesting'. A bit like speculations about the composition of distant stars and planets.

You have fallen into the trap that I fell into on an earlier thread...

I still can't be sure if the OP's system is one of the above.

I don't think I have - I don't think there is anything to be confused about anymore, except that the OP still thinks his water heater is electric, when clearly from the diagrams he posted it is just part of the boiler, running off the same oil he heats his house from. The downside there is that the boiler has to be on even in the summer, to get hot water!

The earlier thread about domestic Steam systems in the US was an eye opener for me. They seem to be a lot of trouble for domestic use but, with a full time janitor to keep them going, in a large apartment block, the higher heating capacity would make them attractive in cold winters.

Sorry, but you still aren't quite there yet: steam systems predate hot water systems largely because they are simpler, not more complex: fewer pipes, no electric pump, and you can regulate heat to each room individually. People have them in single family homes. An ex of mine had a single pipe steam boiler that was 60 years old and she never did maintenance on it except to bleed the radiators at the start of heating season (which you also have to do with hot water systems).

 

[sophiecentaur]

You are probably in a better informed position than I about the US practice but your statement that boilers are only there for heating is questionable even in the US context and actually wrong in the UK context. As I have already said, people in the UK used coal, gas and oil for domestic hot water long before there was Central Heating in homes. You also say that water systems use pumps. Yes - nowadays, but I have lived in two houses (one of them was vast) which had radiators with a simple gravity (convection) system. (Plus, of course, a domestic hot water tank). They were original direct systems and the system needed periodic flushing, to deal with rust and limescale. But the thick, wide bore cast iron pipes and rads were pretty good natured and never seemed to corrode away, despite the fresh (Oxygen and Calcium Carbonate) water passing through them every day.
This thread is just like the US /UK domestic electricity supply threads that you can find in the top twenty posts most weeks in the E E forum. We are clearly talking in quadrature. You must have a different history to us, over here. (Your "60" years" is but the blink of an eye in our history, over here.) Hot water for HW and CH used to be produced with 'back boilers' behind downstairs living room fireplaces and with coal / wood / oil fired stoves and ovens. All very safe and silent. I have never ever come across a steam system in the UK. Look on the UK websites for CH boiler manufacturers (Worcester / Glow Worm / Baxi etc). You won't find a single steam boiler (I don't even think I am taking any risk of being proved wrong here - brave!)
I don't understand why the steam system is claimed to have no return. Some of the circuits I have seen, use return pipes, even though the (weird) sloping radiators have only one input / output pipe. When you say that they need bleeding, that implies to me that they should be full of water. Does it not just drain back down by gravity? Which bit needs yearly bleeding? A good water system with new components and an inhibitor will not need bleeding for several years.
The common building practice in the US of having houses built with cellars is probably a cause / effect of the steam heating system. With the exception of a few Victorian Terraced houses in big cities, cellars are not common in the UK and the steam system requires a drop, back to the boiler from all radiators. A gravity convection system can operate well with ground floor rads at the same level and several metres away from the boiler.
But, as far as I can see, there is one advantage in the steam system. It makes for a good theme in comedy films when people are plagued with the scary noises. Water is boring in that respect.