Is there any possibility that the high voltages needed for lightning

[arydberg]

Is there any possibility that the high voltages needed for lightning come from the thunderclouds assuming some characteristics of a crystal. In the same way a PZT is able to generate enough voltage for a spark.

 

[Studiot]

They are very different effects.

The electric energy in thundercouds is thermal in origin. The electric energy in the piezo effect is elastic (mechanical).

go well

 

[arydberg]

Could you explain more. I know there are temperature differences in thunderstorms but how does this produce high voltage charges.

 

[Drakkith]

See here for more info arydberg: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lightning

 

[arydberg]

Thanks for the link. It is very complete but I intended this to be speculation perhaps for discussion. As an encyclopedia Wikipedia does not deal with speculation. Everything needs to be referenced.

 

[Studiot]

Could you explain more.

OK.

Firstly lightning.

Have you ever seen lightning from a cloudless, blue sky?
Of course not. Lightning is associated with clouds. Heavy thick clouds.
Clouds are created by thermal evaporation of water from land and sea.
They are moved around in the atmosphere by thermally generated air currents.
As they move around they bump into each other and rub shoulders and whatnot.
This action (and maybe some of the other more esoteric ideas in Wikipedia too) cause electrons to be rubbed from one cloud mass and transferred to another so the whole cloud mass becomes charged. Eventually this charge is discharged by the flash and ground return stroke we see as lightning, although sometimes the flashes also pass between oppositely charged clouds, if they approach each other closely enough.

Note that electrons are transferred.

This is why I say the process is thermally driven.

Now for piezoelectricity.

This phenomenon occurs in neutral (non charged) solids. For certain solids if they are strained (distorted) the direction of the ionic bonds is changed slightly. This polarises the crystal as whole so that one end becomes positve and the other negative. The crystal remains neutral overall, however. The faster the straining the greater the voltage developed this way, which is why spark igniters incorporate a hammer mechanism.

There is an dual phenomenon known as electrostriction where the crystal changes shape in response to an applied voltage.

go well

 

[Drakkith]

Thanks for the link. It is very complete but I intended this to be speculation perhaps for discussion. As an encyclopedia Wikipedia does not deal with speculation. Everything needs to be referenced.

What? Why would you want "speculation" instead of facts?

 

[arydberg]

because no one really knows where lighting comes from. The voltages are too high for most or all explanations.

 

[cjl]

because no one really knows where lighting comes from. The voltages are too high for most or all explanations.

What makes you think that?

 

[Drakkith]

because no one really knows where lighting comes from. The voltages are too high for most or all explanations.

While there might not be 100% conclusive proof of the mechanism for producing lightning, we definitely have reasonable explanations for it. Also, I don't believe ice crystals have a pizoelectric effect.

 

[Skaperen]

OK.

Firstly lightning.

Have you ever seen lightning from a cloudless, blue sky?
Of course not.

Yes, I have. OK, there were some small clouds way down at the horizon, probably 40 or so miles away. But where I was when the "bolt out of the blue" hit had no clouds anywhere near. Clouds did form about 20 minutes later.

This action (and maybe some of the other more esoteric ideas in Wikipedia too) cause electrons to be rubbed from one cloud mass and transferred to another so the whole cloud mass becomes charged. Eventually this charge is discharged by the flash and ground return stroke we see as lightning, although sometimes the flashes also pass between oppositely charged clouds, if they approach each other closely enough.

To establish a charge, you have to make one area become more positive and another area become more negative. That would be a neat trick to just up and transfer the electrons from one cloud to another. Are you saying the clouds rub against each other? Clouds I have seen are fuzzy and don't really have a rubbing surface at all.

So how is it that the cloud has a charge relative to ground? Did it rub on the ground, too?

 

[Skaperen]

because no one really knows where lighting comes from. The voltages are too high for most or all explanations.

I have a pretty good idea where it comes from, and I haven't seen anyone explain this anywhere, yet.

 

[arydberg]

OK then. How is it formed.

 

[Skaperen]

OK then. How is it formed.

It's still theory. I have no way of testing it or investigating. At this point I'm not ready to spill it. I'm waiting to see if any academic based research figures it out. But I can say it is not a piezoelectric effect.