Is there life in the universe, and if so has it visited Earth?

[VooDooX]

http://www.esa.int/esaCP/SEM72XRJR4G_index_0.html

well it can defiantly travel thru space

 

[Dembadon]

I believe it would be unscientific to definitively claim 'yes' or 'no'. I believe "we don't know" is the appropriate answer to this question, at this point in time.

 

[DaveC426913]

I believe it would be unscientific to definitively claim 'yes' or 'no'. I believe "we don't know" is the appropriate answer to this question, at this point in time.

You miss the point of the thread.

As a poll, its intent is to get an idea of the opinions of individuals. The "I believe that..." is implicit in every vote.

 

[baywax]

http://www.esa.int/esaCP/SEM72XRJR4G_index_0.html

well it can defiantly travel thru space

This is a great article about some outstanding experiments... thank you VooDooX!

 

[Dembadon]

You miss the point of the thread.

As a poll, its intent is to get an idea of the opinions of individuals. The "I believe that..." is implicit in every vote.

*puts on his party-pooper t-shirt*

 

[GreenLantern]

my vote is on maybe maybe not but its more towards the Probably not.

If there is intelligent life with the technology to travel here then I'd just as much assume that there really isn't anything on Earth worth seeing. Chances are if they have the technology to travel here then they have seen way more interesting things than what exists on our rock (they probably have seen other Earth's even making ours that much less interesting)
just what I feel when comparing our little planet to the vast numbers of awe inspiring things that exist in the universe.
-GL

 

[qraal]

my vote is on maybe maybe not but its more towards the Probably not.

If there is intelligent life with the technology to travel here then I'd just as much assume that there really isn't anything on Earth worth seeing. Chances are if they have the technology to travel here then they have seen way more interesting things than what exists on our rock (they probably have seen other Earth's even making ours that much less interesting)
just what I feel when comparing our little planet to the vast numbers of awe inspiring things that exist in the universe.
-GL

My vote is for They're probably Out There - and They're probably here amongst us. As our surveillance technology shrinks and becomes more capable I think a reasonable extrapolation to ETIs much older than us would be that ETIs can monitor us without our knowing about it - any sighting or encounter would be deliberate not accidental.

But will They be composed of matter as we know it? Or is there another kind of embodiment?

 

[Ivan Seeking]

eh, okay, we aren't getting into "other kinds of ebodiments", whatever that means. Let's keep it real.

 

[qraal]

eh, okay, we aren't getting into "other kinds of ebodiments", whatever that means. Let's keep it real.

I didn't mean anything flakey. Just stuff like plasma structures, positronium, electromagnetic solitons, quantum-fields (which are real in some QM interpretations) and correlated structures in space-time foam. All physical, just non-baryonic.

 

[DaveC426913]

I didn't mean anything flakey. Just stuff like plasma structures, positronium, electromagnetic solitons, quantum-fields (which are real in some QM interpretations) and correlated structures in space-time foam. All physical, just non-baryonic.

In terms of life building blocks, those're flakey.

 

[Count Iblis]

Why would these beings with giant brains build machines that would turn on them? That seems dumb.

Initially, they won't turn on them. Economic competition combined with technological innovation leads to a Darwinian evolution of better and better designs of tools, machines, etc. If you compare this with biology, then the phase we are in today is similar to the primordial soup phase life was in more than 4 billion years ago. I.e. while the whole soup can maintain itself and is capable of growing, it does not contain autonomous parts that can grow and replicate themselves on their own.

Sooner or later this will change and you'll have the first single cell organisms. For the civilization, this means that you've automated an entire part of a production process, including maintaining and building of the factories. This will happen for obvious reasons: You can the produce astronomical quantities for certain goods at extremely low costs.

E.g. consider a small solar cell factory with an area of one square millimeter that makes a copy of itself every week. Then after just 1 year and four months, the whole Earth would be covered by these machines. You could think of sending one such machines to the Moon to convert part of the Moon to solar panels and capturing a significant fraction of the entire solar output of 10^26 Watt.

Once the technique of using self replicating machines is mastered, one can think of building astronomically large supercomputers that are capable of solving complex problems by brute force computation. You can then cook up optimal designs of extremely complex machines using genetic algorithms starting from nothing, including the production process which starts from the machines that already exists.


It is from here that machines with intelligence will arise. We know that human beings are essential in our economy. It is thus reasonable to expect that when you cook up the best design for a self replicating factory on such a giant supercomputer, you will typically get a design that includes artificial intelligence. Of course, only a huge supercomputer that is large enough to simulate the artificialy intelligent agents can arive at such a design.

 

[DaveC426913]

Initially, they won't turn on them. Economic competition combined with technological innovation leads to a Darwinian evolution of better and better designs of tools, machines, etc. If you compare this with biology, then the phase we are in today is similar to the primordial soup phase life was in more than 4 billion years ago. I.e. while the whole soup can maintain itself and is capable of growing, it does not contain autonomous parts that can grow and replicate themselves on their own.

Sooner or later this will change and you'll have the first single cell organisms. For the civilization, this means that you've automated an entire part of a production process, including maintaining and building of the factories. This will happen for obvious reasons: You can the produce astronomical quantities for certain goods at extremely low costs.

E.g. consider a small solar cell factory with an area of one square millimeter that makes a copy of itself every week. Then after just 1 year and four months, the whole Earth would be covered by these machines. You could think of sending one such machines to the Moon to convert part of the Moon to solar panels and capturing a significant fraction of the entire solar output of 10^26 Watt.

Once the technique of using self replicating machines is mastered, one can think of building astronomically large supercomputers that are capable of solving complex problems by brute force computation. You can then cook up optimal designs of extremely complex machines using genetic algorithms starting from nothing, including the production process which starts from the machines that already exists.


It is from here that machines with intelligence will arise. We know that human beings are essential in our economy. It is thus reasonable to expect that when you cook up the best design for a self replicating factory on such a giant supercomputer, you will typically get a design that includes artificial intelligence. Of course, only a huge supercomputer that is large enough to simulate the artificialy intelligent agents can arive at such a design.

It took you ten weeks to write that?

 

[qraal]

In terms of life building blocks, those're flakey.

Another CHON chauvinist!

 

[DaveC426913]

Another CHON chauvinist!

Never mind CHON, let's just start with atom-chauvinist for now.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

I didn't mean anything flakey. Just stuff like plasma structures, positronium, electromagnetic solitons, quantum-fields (which are real in some QM interpretations) and correlated structures in space-time foam. All physical, just non-baryonic.

Any such discussion is far too speculative for this forum. When it comes to possibilities within the range of knowledge, we always look to published material. We can entertain exotic ideas but only if we have a published paper.

 

[Count Iblis]

It took you ten weeks to write that?

I was too lazy to check for any replies in this huge thread at the time.

 

[Chronos]

ET is a tough nut to crack. The spaniards did not bother to conceal their arrival or presence in the new world. The were technologically superior, bent on conquest and exploitation, and rather easily subdued the natives of the new world. Any alien species capable of interstellar travel is obviously, and hugely more technologically advanced than us. We can only hope they do not share the spaniards objectives. A civilization so far advanced is likely morally advanced as well. Surely there are no resources on Earth they could not have derived from the untold number of planets whose paths they crossed during the journey here. As fairly smart critters in their own right, they would immediately recognize they discovered a very rare planet, found it interesting and are entirely capable of observing us without being noticed. That is the part that doesn't make sense - why UFO behavior is often weird and inexplicable. If they view us as ants, they would land wherever, whenever and do whatever they damn well pleased. If their intent is to covertly observe us, then their methods are naive, incompetent and bumbling at best. I wouldn't doubt we have been 'visited', I merely doubt they had any 'flat tires", or abandoned any crashed ships.

 

[qraal]

In some respects the technological distance between the Spaniards & the Amerinds really wasn't too great. At most a millennium, though the ideological dimension is hard to quantify.

ETIs OTOH may well be billennia ahead of us and there would be no reason why we'd even be aware of their monitoring. If they wanted conquest we wouldn't stand a chance. Tailored nano-plagues would suffice to send us all to a speedy extinction if so desired. 'Bug spray'.

Of course that assumes a monolithic effort by the ETIs. If this planet was contested by two different advanced groups, then perhaps they're locked into a dance of move/counter-move, leaving us none-the-wiser. Heaven help us if one gets the upper-hand...

 

[DaveC426913]

If their intent is to covertly observe us, then their methods are naive, incompetent and bumbling at best. I wouldn't doubt we have been 'visited', I merely doubt they had any 'flat tires", or abandoned any crashed ships.

Happens on Star Trek all the time.

I thought they nicely addressed it. There was an ep where they were observing a primitive race from a holo duck blind. Something failed and exposed them to the people. Much hijinks ensued.

I think the lesson is that even the most advanced civilization is not perfect.

 

[CEL]

Happens on Star Trek all the time.

I thought they nicely addressed it. There was an ep where they were observing a primitive race from a holo duck blind. Something failed and exposed them to the people. Much hijinks ensued.

I think the lesson is that even the most advanced civilization is not perfect.

I saw this episode and I agree with you that sh*t happens. But given the number of sightings of alleged alien spacecraft s, if the aliens are really covertly observing us, they must be incredibly incompetent.
In the Star Trek episode, after they failed to conceal their existence, Picard allowed one of the leaders of the primitive society to visit the Enterprise in order to provide sound information and end speculations of the existence of a powerful deity.
If aliens are visiting us and they know they have being detected, why don't they make overt contact?

 

[DaveC426913]

I saw this episode and I agree with you that sh*t happens. But given the number of sightings of alleged alien spacecraft s, if the aliens are really covertly observing us, they must be incredibly incompetent.

I don't know about that.

1] "incredibly incompetent" is a ratio. It's a ratio of successes vs. failures. Multiple failures combined with high competence means a very high number of attempts. The implication is that they are very active in observing us, such that the small fraction of failures result in a significant number.

2] We never forget. If, in the entire history of that race, the scientists had only failed failed twice, they'd remember them both forever.

3] And they'd be on knife-edge looking for more. Every ball of gas in a swamp, every shooting star, would be tossed into the fray as evidence, artificially building up the apparent size of the list.

If aliens are visiting us and they know they have being detected, why don't they make overt contact?

Why don't our own leaders admit they had sex with those underage girls?

You never admit. There is no up side to coming forth with the truth.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

But given the number of sightings of alleged alien spacecraft s, if the aliens are really covertly observing us, they must be incredibly incompetent...

If aliens are visiting us and they know they have being detected, why don't they make overt contact?

This is too speculative to be discussed. We have no way to anticipate the motives, capabilities, or sensabilities of any alleged alien species. If a species is mostly like us, then we might fathom a guess. But we have no way to know what an alien species might be like. So until I can at least understand the motivations of my cats, I'm not about to take on aliens.

At times we can't even explain the actions of humans.

 

[GODISMYSHADOW]

ET is a tough nut to crack. The spaniards did not bother to conceal their arrival or presence in the new world. The were technologically superior, bent on conquest and exploitation, and rather easily subdued the natives of the new world. Any alien species capable of interstellar travel is obviously, and hugely more technologically advanced than us. We can only hope they do not share the spaniards objectives. A civilization so far advanced is likely morally advanced as well. Surely there are no resources on Earth they could not have derived from the untold number of planets whose paths they crossed during the journey here. As fairly smart critters in their own right, they would immediately recognize they discovered a very rare planet, found it interesting and are entirely capable of observing us without being noticed. That is the part that doesn't make sense - why UFO behavior is often weird and inexplicable. If they view us as ants, they would land wherever, whenever and do whatever they damn well pleased. If their intent is to covertly observe us, then their methods are naive, incompetent and bumbling at best. I wouldn't doubt we have been 'visited', I merely doubt they had any 'flat tires", or abandoned any crashed ships.

I don't really know, but I'd like to think there has always been life.
Primitive seeds of life arrived on Earth from space billions of years
ago. From that simple beginning, Darwin's evolution took over.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Note also that the question, "Has intelligent alien life visited earth?", does not assume that humans even existed at the time.

 

[Anticitizen]

I don't really know, but I'd like to think there has always been life.
Primitive seeds of life arrived on Earth from space billions of years
ago. From that simple beginning, Darwin's evolution took over.

Why would you choose to believe that? There's no evidence for it and it doesn't provide any answers about the origin of life.

 

[VooDooX]

Again i dotn think you guys realized last time what i was saying ... LIFE CAN SURVIVE IN SPACE WITHOUT A SPACE SUIT OR ANYTHING AND THRIVE...http://www.esa.int/esaCP/SEM72XRJR4G_index_0.html So all you people earlier who were dismissing the comet seed theory of life may want to think again since these microbes could EASILY live on a comet with absolutely no problem

 

[CEL]

Again i dotn think you guys realized last time what i was saying ... LIFE CAN SURVIVE IN SPACE WITHOUT A SPACE SUIT OR ANYTHING AND THRIVE...http://www.esa.int/esaCP/SEM72XRJR4G_index_0.html So all you people earlier who were dismissing the comet seed theory of life may want to think again since these microbes could EASILY live on a comet with absolutely no problem

That microorganisms, specially is the form of spores, can survive in space is a known fact. Nobody is contesting it.
But postulating that life on Earth came from space, merely transfers the origin of life somewhere else.
We are only using Occam's razor. Why should we add another hypothesis to the origin of life?

 

[dacruick]

I think that it would be extremely ignorant to assume that life off of Earth doesn't exist. But I also think that the probable distance between Earth and any other planet with life is far to great to ever cause an encounter.

 

[DaveC426913]

But postulating that life on Earth came from space, merely transfers the origin of life somewhere else.
We are only using Occam's razor. Why should we add another hypothesis to the origin of life?

I wondered this myself. But it does accomplish one thing: it gives life a lot longer to spring from non-life - at least 10 times longer.

 

[Bartleby50]

Vegetable life and the green algae in the ocean provide us with oxygen from the carbon dioxide responsible by the major part of the greenhouse effect. The growing temperature is in the origin of phenomena like El Niño, that cause droughts and inundations all over the world.

Higher Temperatures means MORE vegetable life and MORE green algae.