Is There Proof That God Exists?

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The discussion centers on the existence of God and the nature of belief, emphasizing that proof of God is inherently elusive and subjective. Participants argue that personal experiences, often through meditation, can lead to a profound understanding of God that transcends traditional notions of faith. Some express skepticism about the need for God in modern society, suggesting that reliance on the concept of God can lead to dangerous conflicts. The conversation also touches on the relationship between science and spirituality, with some asserting that both can coexist and that new theories may bridge the gap between the two. Ultimately, the dialogue reflects a deep exploration of belief, experience, and the quest for understanding the divine.
  • #51
Mumeishi,

with all beliefs, we do not start by assuming existence and challenging others to disprove it. Can you give me any non-religious examples of this?
Some physicists believe in a theory of everything, even though there is no evidence that it exists. Are these believing physicists being irrational?
 
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  • #52
god

i said some believe in god because they cannot porve other wise and no i do NOT mean acrobatics i have a thread of my own read that threadand you will see what i mean
 
  • #53
Originally posted by Bariyon
Some physicists believe in a theory of everything, even though there is no evidence that it exists. Are these believing physicists being irrational?

It is not irrational to believe in the possibility. It is irrational to feel certain when evidence does not justify that.

It also depends what you mean by 'believe in a theory of everything'. It seems very plausible that all phenomena have a common source and as time goes by we collect more and more evidence to unify the phenomena that we know - all things are made of a finite set of atoms - all atoms are made of a smaller number of subatomic particles, matter is ultimately a form of energy. The electromagnetic forces and strong and weak nuclear forces have (I think) been shown to be aspects of the same. We can extrapolate from there. But until proven, this is just rational speculation.

Another matter is whether it is even possible for mankind with his finite brain to understand 'everything'. Even string theorists generally regard this as an open question. As Brian Greene put it:
No matter how hard you try to teach your cat general relativity, you’re going to fail.

Scientists do not 'believe in' theories in the same way that some people believe in God (not the sane ones at any rate). They simply regard a particular theory as being the best model we have for a particular phenomenon. If they get so emotionally attached to an idea that they believe it is 'true' without evidence, or with evidence against it, then they are straying into pseudoscience or at least 'bad' science.

The current best candidate for a 'theory of everything' - M theory (with the five string theories and supergravity as aspects of it) - is unproven but it's perceived value is not based on faith - it is based on its proven power to explain many hitherto incompatible aspects of physics which emerge from it mathematically without adding arbitrary constants.
 
  • #54
Where is your thread Wolf?
 
  • #55
It is not irrational to believe in the possibility. It is irrational to feel certain when evidence does not justify that.

it is not irrational to believe that God is a possibility, then. or purple people or santa clause for that matter.

question: does irrational=wrong? if so, does logical=right?

the way i would have phrased it is this: some physicists believe that a theory of everything (in particular, the one inch equation) exists though there is no proof that it does.
 
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  • #56
Originally posted by phoenixthoth
it is not irrational to believe that God is a possibility, then. or purple people or santa clause for that matter.

A very remote possibility for all of the above, if at all. And what 'God' (and 'Santa') are would have to be defined in terms which were meaningful and not self inconsistent. I'd say there was evidence against all of the above.

Originally posted by phoenixthoth
question: does irrational=wrong? if so, does logical=right?

'Irrational to believe' in real terms means probably wrong unless by coincidence (or genetic determination). Logic can tell you the most likely situation based on available evidence - it cannot give you the direct truth of factual matters.

Originally posted by phoenixthoth
the way i would have phrased it is this: some physicists believe that a theory of everything (in particular, the one inch equation) exists though there is no proof that it does.

A theory is something created by humans. No such theory exists as far as we know. It is not rational to assume that such a theory is a certainty in the future.
 
  • #57
I happen to like the idea from the post in the general philosophy -Religion imposed by Evolution . God could be just an excuse for us not to commit mass suicides whenever something bad happened. but as for proof...for some the beliefs of the masses are enough to convince them but for some of the more inquisitive ppl, the concrete/written proof seems non-existant or too old or extraordinary to seem true.
 
  • #58
I think that religion is the product of a complex interaction between evolution and memetics. Just because God is an invention does not mean that there are (or have been historically at least) social and evolutionary advantages for religious behaviour - primarily social cohesion.
 
  • #59
But still...what proof is there of a god (or proof that there isn't a god)? It isn't like ppl couldn't get along without worshiping the diety of their choice (santa & purple ppl included). Besides history also shows that religious activity leads to huge amounts of unnecessary bloodshed. I wouldn't care enough to waste the energy to reply if humans didn't go to such extremes over their religion.
 
  • #60
There is no proof or evidence for God. There is evidence against the theistic story (requiring them to reinterpret the story) eg. the sky is not a 'firmament', evolution, etc, but no proof. How can a concept like 'God' be disproved if it has not been defined in a coherent, consistent or testable way? Any number of 'non-disprovable' hypotheses can be erected - can you disprove the invisible gravity elves (who live in another dimension)? A hypothesis has to presented in a testable way and supported by evidence before there is even something there to disprove - otherwise we would have an unlimited number of unsupported beliefs.

We have better (simpler and more powerful) hypotheses for much which was explained by ancient Hewbrew tribesmen in terms of divine acts.

Certainly there have been and are some terrible and usually very long religious wars. And many atheists hark on about this. And its very easy to point to one war or historical event as if it existed in isolation and say that without religion those people would not have suffered and died. But to me whether there would be less bloodshed without religion is unclear - the world would be a different place and I simply don't know. The wars might be between secular ideologies instead - the number of people murdered by Stalinism was collosal (significantly more than those killed by the Nazis).

Religion tends to create more internal social cohesion and cooperation but to decrease tolerance to external belief systems.

But society is changing. Personally I think that pluralism and secular government is necessary for all modern multicultural states.

Anyway, whether something has evolutionary and memetic advantages has no direct reletionship with how good it is for the welfare of mankind or the individual man. Consider the cultural trait of suicide bombing - it certainly doesn't do much good to the individual, but it does give militarily dominated groups an effective weapon where otherwise they would have none - and without religion it probably wouldn't be possible.
 
  • #61
I am a Diest. Thus, I believe God created the universe but only to let the universe run by natural laws. Hence, he is not an iterventionist god and prayer is useless. Can I prove there is a God ? No. Can I prove he created us? No. Thus, this belief is just pure faith.I grew up among Hindi and Muslim friends in Malaysia and learned early to respect as well as distrust the world's major religions.


The big bang theory does not preclude a god, for me. In much the same way evolution does not preclude a god (for me.) It shows that God was a brilliant scientist! I think the state of the world shows a very indifferent god, much akin to our own indifferance when we create a whole universe of bacterial colonies in petri dishes and throw them away into the hazardous waste bins. Many great scientists and thinkers were Diests or religious, even Einstein never lost his spirituality. (Don't forget Mendel, a monk, Faraday, a devout fanatic christian, Newton, essentially a Diest/Unitarian. etc. etc.)

It is irrational, but perhaps it is because even the most rational does not relinquish the idea that there is something greater than us. In addition, for some, probing into the depths of science either makes you more of an athiest or more spiritual. As a physics professor once told me "Mathmatics and science is the language of God." not the bible. He felt that if one studied mathematics and science, we saw the intricacy and brilliance of a God without all the ridiculous sanctions imposed by cultural values.


As you can see, I am basically a simple person.

just my two cents worth.:smile: :smile: :smile: :smile: :smile: :smile: :smile: :smile: :smile:
 
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  • #62
Originally posted by adrenaline
I grew up among Hindi and Muslim friends in Malaysia and learned early to respect as well as distrust the world's major religions.

Did you learn to distrust or at least question Christianity too?

Originally posted by adrenaline

The big bang theory does not preclude a god, for me. In much the same way evolution does not preclude a god (for me.) It shows that God was a brilliant scientist!

No - it shows that the Gravity Elves were brilliant scientists! Have ye no faith?!

Originally posted by adrenaline
I think the state of the world shows a very indifferent god, much akin to our own indifferance when we create a whole universe of bacterial colonies in petri dishes and throw them away into the hazardous waste bins.

What happened to a loving omnibenevolent god?

Originally posted by adrenaline

Many great scientists and thinkers were Diests or religious, even Einstein never lost his spirituality. (Don't forget Mendel, a monk, Faraday, a devout fanatic christian, Newton, essentially a Diest/Unitarian. etc. etc.)

There's a big difference between theism and spirituality. Einstein certainly wasn't religious in any recognisable traditional sense. Belief in God actually decreases with increased education, particularly scientific education. Scientists probably have the lowest percentage of religious belief of any profession.

Originally posted by adrenaline

It is irrational, but perhaps it is because even the most rational does not relinquish the idea that there is something greater than us.

Who could possibly deny that? But it is more honest to humbly let the truth reveal itself through evidence that to claim knowledge of the ultimate through direct personal insight.
 
  • #63
Malaysia is a predominantly Islamic country with a large proportion of Hindis and Buddists (the latter due to the Asian population.) So most of my peers were not Christians. However, My father is Quaker (essentilly Unitarian.) and my mother a born again christian who could never quite sell me her religion. So yeah, I questioned Christianity my whole life argueing with her.

I believe the scientists I mentioned were very religious with the exception of Einstein. Faraday was in his heydey a member of a literal small sect called the Sandemanians. Newton rejected the trinity but still believed in a God. Einstein definitely rejected his formal Jewish beliefs and was more spiritual and pantheistic. You are right that todays modern thinkers are more and more areligious and there is a direct correlation with educational level.
 
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  • #64
A direct proof that God does exist is the fact that we have evolved to ask the question does God exist. Nothing can not exist if we think that it might. The question and the answer is inbreed in the evolution of life everywhere in the universe. Something set exactly right, all the parameter of laws, precisely correct, for us to exist.
 
  • #65
Originally posted by Rader
A direct proof that God does exist is the fact that we have evolved to ask the question does God exist. Nothing can not exist if we think that it might. The question and the answer is inbreed in the evolution of life everywhere in the universe. Something set exactly right, all the parameter of laws, precisely correct, for us to exist.

Even if 'Godidit' was the only explanation we could come up with that wouldn't be proof, as there could always be possibilities beyond our imagination and intellect which we had not conceived of.

As it is, the 'Godidit' hypothesis is is competing with more powerful(and less self-contradictory and logically absurd) ideas and is no more plausible than 'Gravity Elves' or anything else I could think up after smoking a big joint.
 
  • #66
I personally don't believe in god per se, but definitely in a higher power. How this power came to be, i cannot be for sure, but the way the god of the bible "always was" is a little strange. I mean, he existed before anything, and when i ask people (parents, priests, ect)how this can be, they just say, because he is god.

Or maybe "god" is like how adrenaline says, that he DID create us and wants nothing to do with us, or, well...maybe well...maybe we all just picked the wrong religion and mormons might be right (like on South Park, not trying to be offensive).
 
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  • #67
Originally posted by Mumeishi
Even if 'Godidit' was the only explanation we could come up with that wouldn't be proof, as there could always be possibilities beyond our imagination and intellect which we had not conceived of.

As it is, the 'Godidit' hypothesis is is competing with more powerful(and less self-contradictory and logically absurd) ideas and is no more plausible than 'Gravity Elves' or anything else I could think up after smoking a big joint.

I agree. There could always be possibilities beyond our imagination and intellect which we had not conceived of yet.
Solution stop smoking joints and you might come up with one.
:smile:
 
  • #68
Originally posted by psychosporin
I personally don't believe in god per se, but definitely in a higher power. How this power came to be, i cannot be for sure, but the way the god of the bible "always was" is a little strange. I mean, he existed before anything, and when i ask people (parents, priests, ect)how this can be, they just say, because he is god.

Or maybe "god" is like how adrenaline says, that he DID create us and wants nothing to do with us, or, well...maybe well...maybe we all just picked the wrong religion and mormons might be right (like on South Park, not trying to be offensive).

Or maybe its all emotionally and politically driven feverish speculations of a bunch of small-brained humans without the wit or humility to realize that they can't have all the answers on plate - especially not answers they can pick from a menu to suit their emotional needs.

Why do you believe in a 'higher power' whatever that is?
 
  • #69
Originally posted by Mumeishi
Or maybe its all emotionally and politically driven feverish speculations of a bunch of small-brained humans without the wit or humility to realize that they can't have all the answers on plate - especially not answers they can pick from a menu to suit their emotional needs.

Why do you believe in a 'higher power' whatever that is?

Like I said, i wasnt trying to be annoying/offensive, sorry if i have offended you Mumeishi.

But anyways...what i mean by "higher power" is that I have not proven to myself that God exists. But I believe that there is something there, some creative source, not necessarily the god of the bible (Yahweh, or something). I guess the reason that i lost my faith in god and started believeing in a higher power is because i have seen a lot of different beliefs among christianity, so i am trying to find a new religion(maybe even another denomination of christianity), hence the "higher power"
 
  • #70
You didn't offend me in the least. Feel free to annoy me as much as you like - don't hold back.

What do you mean by 'creative source' and why do you believe in it?
 
  • #71
I guess I was a little vague in my post...What i meant, was people just told me to pray to god, not giving me a reason why. All they told me was that he loved me and that he made me. Until I prove to my self that he DOES love me and made me, i shall remain skeptical. Example, I was raised as a Seventh Day Adventist, for those of you who don't know what those are, they believe that Saturday is the sabbath, and that you shouldn't eat pork, ect. I don't like pork much anyways, but that's besides the point. i was just told to believe and follow those rules, thinking that that was the only way to get into heaven. What i should have meant is that i need to prove to myself these things about god.

i guess i shouldn't have used the terms "higher power" "creative force" ect, but i was frustrated by how many different beliefs of the different denominations of christianity, compared to the one denomination of the Islamic faith. But, i suppose that i would rather be christian than anything else, except some "Christian" denominations that are cult like.
 
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  • #72
Your reply kinda sounds like one i made earlier...that our beliefs are based largely on gullibility. And you didn't have to appologize pyscho (see you monday lol)
 
  • #73
We don't know if our universe (ie. visible universe - the space time continuum of which we are a part), has an external cause, ie is part of something greater or not. Nor does it seem impossible that an intelligent entity in another part of the multiverse caused a real or virtual universe to come into being. But what is clear is that there is no evidence to reasonable cause us to assume that or worse to assume the existence of something which the concept of which is unintelligible - what does infinitely good or infinitely powerful mean? It is nonsensical when you think about it.

Its also clear that 'a feeling of certainty' (ie faith) is not sufficient justification for belief (go visit a mental hospital to find out why). Nor is something being written down in an old religious text sufficient justification, otherwise we should all be learning the Pyramid Texts and worshipping Ra, Osiris, and Isis - it is significantly older than the bible after all.

If the idea of God answers the mysteries in life at all, it does so by avoiding explaining anything and pushing those mysteries further back - subsuming them in the 'ineffable mystery of God'.

How does reality look the way it does?
'Because there is a being that can do anything and he did it.'
How?
'He can do anything'
Why?
'He has a mysterious plan'

So why do people believe? Over time, the most appealing and socially powerful religious ideas have survived and become more and more effective at spreading by using strategies such as bypassing rational thought and manipulating people through their primal emotions of love, hate and fear.
 
  • #74
Originally posted by Mumeishi
We don't know if our universe (ie. visible universe - the space time continuum of which we are a part), has an external cause, ie is part of something greater or not. Nor does it seem impossible that an intelligent entity in another part of the multiverse caused a real or virtual universe to come into being. But what is clear is that there is no evidence to reasonable cause us to assume that or worse to assume the existence of something which the concept of which is unintelligible - what does infinitely good or infinitely powerful mean? It is nonsensical when you think about it.

Its also clear that 'a feeling of certainty' (ie faith) is not sufficient justification for belief (go visit a mental hospital to find out why). Nor is something being written down in an old religious text sufficient justification, otherwise we should all be learning the Pyramid Texts and worshipping Ra, Osiris, and Isis - it is significantly older than the bible after all.

If the idea of God answers the mysteries in life at all, it does so by avoiding explaining anything and pushing those mysteries further back - subsuming them in the 'ineffable mystery of God'.

How does reality look the way it does?
'Because there is a being that can do anything and he did it.'
How?
'He can do anything'
Why?
'He has a mysterious plan'

So why do people believe? Over time, the most appealing and socially powerful religious ideas have survived and become more and more effective at spreading by using strategies such as bypassing rational thought and manipulating people through their primal emotions of love, hate and fear.

The only logical answer seems to be, that we do not understand his mysterious plan and all this fuss is part of the plan.

One hopefull note is that, the people who believe, also believe that mind body and spirit is evolving towards a greater perfection.
 
  • #75
Mumeishi,

Regarding the belief that a theory of everything exists, or at least a more complete theory, I don't doubt this either.

But regarding the existence of god, there are people who believe that there must be more to life than there presently is.

It may be possible that these people are attempting to express an experiential sense of what lies beyond our present understanding.

It is possible that some scientists are involved in the same process of expressing intuitions that lie beyond the usual intellectual faculties. Such scientists would view that their laboratory is their own body.

The way I see things, the prophets were the ancient equivalents of the scientist, albeit with a different programme. The writings of the prophets are widely misunderstood, perhaps even more so these days. For example, if a prophet writes that we shall not wear garments that are a mixture of wool and linen, either this prophet is being extremely petty, or he is up to something else that is beyond some of us.

It is no coincidence that no one has a theory of everything, and no one understands the prophets.
 
  • #76
Both of you,

It's all wishful thinking. There is no actual justification to believe any of this - only the desire to find something to combat a sense that the reality we do know is insufficiently fulfilling for many people.
 
  • #77
Mumeishi,

prove that God does not exist.

until you do, i will consider your apparent belief that God does not exist wishful thinking and irrational, not unlike those in a mental institution.

i'm wondering if the postulation of a hell is also wishful thinking.

is this something you believe that you can't prove?
 
  • #78
Define 'God'.
 
  • #79
how about the definition you were using when you wrote this:
"If the idea of God answers the mysteries in life at all..."
 
  • #80
Originally posted by Mumeishi
Define 'God'.


We could define him as being a exellent scientist.
 
  • #81
I said 'if..'. Frankly, it's not a concept I have come across an intelligible definition for, which reflects its common usage, so to say 'God does or does not exist' is gobbledigook to me.

Why is it that people have no problem understanding that the onus of proof is on the assertor of an idea except when it comes to God, they seem to conveniently forget?

Can you prove that there is no such thing as invisible blue elephants?
No.
Does this mean that they exist?
No.
Does this mean that my belief in them is as valid as your lack of belief in them?
No.
Does this mean that believing in them is rational or justified?
No.

Now replace 'invisible blue elephants' with 'God'. Actually at least the former is an intelligible idea.
 
  • #82
Originally posted by Rader
We could define him as being a exellent scientist.

Oh I believe in those. Einstein, Faraday, Hawking are all excellent scientists. Where does he live?
 
  • #83
Originally posted by Mumeishi
Oh I believe in those. Einstein, Faraday, Hawking are all excellent scientists. Where does he live?

Thats the million dollar question, you made my day. Thats the first time i had someone ask where he lives. He has a unlisted address this year. Try next year we might know.
 
  • #84
Why is it that people have no problem understanding that the onus of proof is on the assertor of an idea except when it comes to God, they seem to conveniently forget?
same applies to an assertor of the idea "God does not exist." just out of curiousity, if God is a concept you consider "gobbledigook," then why would you talk about it? if someone started a thread entitled "what's the proof that )(*&!#0 exists," i wouldn't participate most likely. i have the feeling that you actually have some idea what God might be.

Can you prove that there is no such thing as invisible blue elephants?
No.
Does this mean that they exist?
No.
Does this mean that my belief in them is as valid as your lack of belief in them?
No.
Does this mean that believing in them is rational or justified?
No.
does this mean that one who believes in them is incorrect?
no.
does this mean that one who believes in them is correct?
no.

please tell my if I'm mischaracterizing your statements. i call this the santa clause argument:
SANTA CLAUSE ARGUMENT
1. belief in imaginary beings is illogical and delusional.
2. beliefs that are illogical and delusional are automatically wrong.
3. therefore, God does not exist.

you seem to be alternating between one who thinks 'God' is intelligible enough to talk about and then to decide it's not an intelligible subject when it's convienient for you.

suppose you can't prove God does not exist. what word do you use to describe when you believe something you can't prove?
 
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  • #85
Originally posted by phoenixthoth
same applies to an assertor of the idea "God does not exist." just out of curiousity, if God is a concept you consider "gobbledigook," then why would you talk about it? if someone started a thread entitled "what's the proof that )(*&!#0 exists," i wouldn't participate most likely. i have the feeling that you actually have some idea what God might be.

If someone told me that an entity existed with characteristics quantified as infinite, the consequences of which is isolation and combination lead to absurd conclusion I would have to say that I could not make sense of the proposed concept or entity.

Originally posted by phoenixthoth

does this mean that one who believes in them is incorrect?
no.
does this mean that one who believes in them is correct?
no.

There is no such thing as absolute certainty in this world. We cannot eliminate the possibility of invisible blue elephants and we cannot eliminate the possibility of a 'higher power' (of some sort). That doesn't mean that it is justiified to believe in them without any evidence, especially when there are far more powerful and useful explanations for the phenomena they we originally dreamed up to explain.

Originally posted by phoenixthoth

please tell my if I'm mischaracterizing your statements. i call this the santa clause argument:
SANTA CLAUSE ARGUMENT
1. belief in imaginary beings is illogical and delusional.
2. beliefs that are illogical and delusional are automatically wrong.
3. therefore, God does not exist.

Yes you are. Where did you pull that from? Try again.

Originally posted by phoenixthoth

you seem to be alternating between one who thinks 'God' is intelligible enough to talk about and then to decide it's not an intelligible subject when it's convienient for you.

Perhaps I wasn't being very clear. I must be able to understand the concept enough to discuss it, but I certainly can't make sense of the supposed characteristics of that concept.

Originally posted by phoenixthoth

suppose you can't prove God does not exist. what word do you use to describe when you believe something you can't prove?

'Sanity'.

The belief in X is not justified by reason or evidence.
It is not justified to believe in X.
I have absolutely no reason to believe in X, so I don't have a belief in X.
I believe (but cannot know) that there is no X. In other words, I'd be extremeley surprised if anything like X existed. And I'd be even more surprised if X existed as described since I cannot make sense of it.
It would be irrational to act as if X existed, when there are hypotheses with very real evidence and which are not self-contradictory.

There are an unlimited number of undisprovable concepts which can be entered where X is. God has exactly the same level of credibility as invisible elephants, elves, santa claus, and the purple unicorn from dimension X.

The thing that causes people to take this concept is that it is emotionally seductive and those who are introduced to it are also asked to give up their critical thinking faculties with regard to the concept.
 
  • #86
so belief in something you can't prove is both sanity and unjustified. interesting. in particular, belief in God though you can't prove it is sanity and unjusitified.

some would call it 'faith'.
 
  • #87
Yes, please deliberately misunderstand me - good tactic.

There is indeed a certain element of faith involved in all beliefs. There is a gap between what is absoloutely knowable (very little or nothing) and the things we need to act as if true in order to have a reasonably accurate model of the world and thus hopefully survive in it.

If I wait for a bus, there is a degree of faith that one will eventually come. When I go to sleep there is a degree of faith that the sun will rise the next morning. When I drive a car, there is a degree of faith that the laws of physics won't suddenly change and make the tarmac fload off into the air.

The faith involved here is rational and based on evidence. It is just a matter of choosing the likelihood shown to be most probable by evidence and reason - for pragmatic reasons sometimes we need to close the hypothetical gap in our knowledge and act and think (at least for a while) as if something is certain. Otherwise we would remain in a state of permanent scepticism and indecision.

Now, believing something *entirely* on the basis of faith and, with a *lack* of any evidence or *contrary* to it, is *not* the same or symmetrical at all, which is what you are implying. Its an entirely different kettle of invisible purple fish.
 
  • #88
Forgive me if I'm not being absolutely clear - I've recently adjusted my stance on this and I'm still clarifying the details in my own head.

Many atheists insist on 'weak atheism' (a statement of lack of belief) as the rational position and in a sense this is true. Until very recently I agreed. However, the reality of the situation is that I believe that the idea that God exists is false. Why is this? Can I justify it?

I don't claim to *know* that there is no God, as I am not omniscient and there may be something about the situation I'm missing - my belief is a working model. To the best of my knowledge there is no more justification for belief in the existence of god than thee is justification for belief in invisible pink elephants on Alpha Centauri. And if someone asked me if I believed there were such creatures I would have to say 'no'. This doesn't mean I claim to know that there are none, but without evidence it seems unlikely.

It is a statement of probability suggested by the available evidence and of what hypothesis I'm working with. It is not possible to function in the world in a state of complete agnosticism - we have to commit ourselves to an idea to be able to do anything.

I think there *is* an element of faith in this - the same sort of faith that gravity won't suddenly invert, or that the sun will rise each morning, in other words, faith justified by the high probabilities suggested by evidence and reason.

This is not the same as religious faith, which exists contrary to or at least in isolation from evidence or rational thought. Hypotheses are not accepted purely on faith except for God for some odd reason and the argument that God is an exception because he 'cannot be apprehended by reason' or some such, fails because it presupposes his existence and characteristics in order to prove them. Any number of ridiculous ideas can be constructed which would magically pull themselves up by their bootstraps in this way.
 
  • #89
God

Aparently in the bible god said

"i shall not proof my existence because that denies faith and without faith i do not exist" this is saying that he exists as long as us humans choose to believe in him and have faith in him or her i apologize for using he so much it is a force of habit
 
  • #90
What sort of puny existence is that? Even God admits he is only an idea.
 
  • #91
are you saying that while it is likely that the sun will rise tomorrow, it is unlikely that pink elephants exist on alpha centauri and that God exists? while i can see how it might be unlikely that pink elephants exist on alpha centauri, mainly because it's probably too hot to support life (assuming the pink elephant in question is a type of life form we're accustomed to), I'm not sure how one goes about calculating the odds that God exists. how is this done? i would assume that in order to calculate the odds, or just estimate the odds and call the event "unlikely," that one would have to have a definition of God. what is the definition you're using?
 
  • #92
Taking the common Christian definition of 'God' (omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, disembodied intelligence or 'spirit' - whatever that is - that exists beyond our univese and created it and and gave us the purpose of being moral, and acknowledging him through faith, etc), how much reliable evidence is there for such a being? Here is a quick round-up of the evidence I'm aware of:

- private, subjective feelings of 'spirituality' (does not equal evidence that they are anything more than experiences caused by brain events)
- anecdotes of miracles (number confirmed by independent verification = 0)
- the Old and New Testament - claimed to be 'the word of God' (fails because the authority that they are the word of God is the texts themselves - it's circular, plus of course there are the internal inconsistencies, inconsistencies with demonstrable reality and the fact that there are a range of other texts saying contrary things, all claiming to be the 'true word of God/Allah etc'
- The existence of the universe itself. (The existence of a thing is not evidence for one particular explanation for a thing - salt exists, therefor the salt-cellar of the gods must exist? No.)
- The existence of life. (Same argument above applie, plus there are other explanations which have substantial *actual evidence* are more powerful, and provide actual detailed explanation of the processes rather than sweeping, nonspecific ones, like 'God did it' or naive, implausible ones, like 'he made man out of clay, then made woman out of his rib').

Therefore the verifiable evidence is nil. There is certainly no more evidence for a Judeo-Christian account than there is for a Shinto, Hindu or Ancient Egyptian account.

What is the evidence for the hypothesis that invisible elephant-like creatures live on a planet orbiting Alpha-Centauri or that extra-dimensional pixies inhabit this planet? Hypothetically it should not be excluded, but again there is no verifiable evidence, so the possibility remains purely hypothetical.

Furthermore this 'God' entity is proposed to possesses a number of characteristics which we have no other examples of and have difficulty even making sense of - so we don't even know if it is even possible for such a thing to exist. For example, he is said to exist outside of the universe - we don't know of any space, time or existence of any sort in which he could exist and without those concepts, in what sense can he be said to exist and to have causal relationships with our universe? If he is part of (or all of) some 'greater reality', where did it come from? This is not an explanation for the origin of everything at all its just a case of pushing the problem further backing into a transcendent reality and clouding it with 'mysterious unknowability'. If the greater reality 'always was' or 'is not subject to the concept of time' then why can't we say the same about our universe as a totality? Indeed, relativity shows time to be a *property of* the universe, not something which the universe *exists in*.

Another example is the concept of omnipotence and the conundrum this leads to. If He is all-powerful, and all-good, why is life so crappy sometimes and why is there evil? Freewill and suffering are necessary for our spiritual development and judgement I hear you say. But an all-powerful God would be able to perfect us without resort to such indirect, inefficient and painful means. And, does the concept of unlimited power actually mean anything? Can he create a rock that he cannot lift or not? Can he make a square circle? Can he make good actions evil and vice versa?

Faced with the logical absurdities even of the concept of God's existence let alone the absense of evidence, I'd have to put him into the vast category of vanishingly small possibilities and apparent impossibilities - probably some way below the invisible pink elephants and extra-dimensional elves. The fact that there are as many of these undemonstrated and untestable hypotheses as we have imagination to think of them is significant. If we accept them we would not be able to function due to uncertainty and indecision - our knowledge of reality would be effectively zero. The default state of our knowledge is not zero, ie. not a certainty that hypothesis X is false. This background of vanishing hypothetical possibilities is actually the default state. And the 'God' concept slides right into it along with unicorns and jabberwockys. What we need to find the 'real' as opposed to the merely 'conceived of' is something which will pull the proposed hypothesis out of this near-infinite mass of vanishing possibilities - that is why we seek verifiable evidence and how human understanding has advanced over the millenia. The thing that pulls the 'God' concept out of this background is not evidence or even reason, it is IMO that the memetic evolutionary complex that is religion has evolved a powerful emotional appeal and a doctrine which encourages people to circumvent the usual need for evidence and reason and accept this particular hypothesis on a faith-alone basis. See Richard Dawkins and Susan Blackmore for more details.

If, we are motivated to do so, we can redefine 'God ' in such a way that it avoids many of these logical problems. If we accept a finite entity of some sort, which nevertheless created our local universe and may have great power over it and exists in some sort of hypothetical transcendent reality, like a computer programmer who creates a simulated world, then we at least have a coherent idea. There is however, still no evidence for it, it still has no real explanatory power, it isn't the Judeo-Christian god and there is no verifiable way to acertain its intentions for our behaviour if any, no divine support (let alone absolute moral imperative) for the claim that homosexuality is evil, for example.
 
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  • #93
private, subjective feelings of 'spirituality' (does not equal evidence that they are anything more than experiences caused by brain events)
what subjective experiences aren't caused by brain events? how was it determined that the brain events caused the spiritual feelings and not that something spiritual caused the brain events?
 
  • #94
All experiences correspond to brain events. Experiences can be triggered by artificially stimulated associated brain areas, therefore a causal relationship in this direction is shown or more likely IMO an identity relationship - the brain event is the experience from a different perspective. There is no evidence even for a separate 'spirit' to cause these events - its pure conjecture.

We don't need divine intervention to cause these events - we can do it with magnets on the temporal lobes.
 
  • #95
that the experience can be simulated by other means (magnets or whatnot) proves what, even if it were possible? how was it determined that the brain events caused the spiritual feelings and not that something spiritual caused the brain events?

does subjective brain experience associated with perception of the outside universe provide evidence that it exists? why that and not the subjective brain experience associated with the perception of a spiritual presence? what makes some subjective experiences a more reliable indicator of reality than others?
 
  • #96
Originally posted by phoenixthoth
that the experience can be simulated by other means (magnets or whatnot) proves what, even if it were possible? how was it determined that the brain events caused the spiritual feelings and not that something spiritual caused the brain events?

It has been done, many times, including artificial stimulation of the temporal lobes to invoke religious-type experiences. The neuroscientist's decision whether to and how to stimulate the brain produces a fairly predictable result. What's the alternative? That God 'secretly conspired' to give the person a religious experience at the exact same time as the neuroscientist or through his actions? Apart from being absurdly implausible and rather pathetic of God, that would violate the neurosurgeon's freewill and we all know how important God values that.

Originally posted by phoenixthoth
does subjective brain experience associated with perception of the outside universe provide evidence that it exists? why that and not the subjective brain experience associated with the perception of a spiritual presence? what makes some subjective experiences a more reliable indicator of reality than others?

Because the former is verified by multiple observers.
 
  • #97
did you note the word "simulate" in my question? if i could concoct a drug (or some other stimulus) to simulate perception X does that mean that nothing else in reality gives rise to perception X independent of the drug?

Because the former is verified by multiple observers.
muliple people have had spiritual experiences. i don't see the relevance in that those multiple obervers are coming through in a subjective brain state. so if a million people say a horse exists (because they may have experienced it in some way/ways), then it does, while if a million people say God exists (because they may have experienced it in some way/ways), that is less reliable? if i could put a magnetic field around someone's head and they suddenly saw a horse when i did so, does that mean horses don't exist?
 
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  • #98
Originally posted by phoenixthoth
did you note the word "simulate" in my question? if i could concoct a drug (or some other stimulus) to simulate perception X does that mean that nothing else in reality gives rise to perception X independent of the drug?

We cannot make that assumption.

If the drug or other 'artificial' stimulus is the cause of an experience, then the experience will occur in the presence of the stimulus and not when it is absent. It is really IMO activity of a certain sort in the temporal lobes which *is* the experience and this activity can occur 'spontaneously' or artificially. Yes, the spontaneous activity could hypothetically have an invisible cause (like 'God'). But you are missing the point. These experiments show that 'God' is not a necessary factor for such experiences, therefor using such experiences as evidence for god is unsound, which was my original point.

The relationship seems to be an ordinary causal one:
stimulate temporal lobe > religious experience
stop stimulation > experience ends

It happens when the neuroscientist wills - it doesn't rely on God's will.


Originally posted by phoenixthoth

muliple people have had spiritual experiences. i don't see the relevance in that those multiple obervers are coming through in a subjective brain state. so if a million people say a horse exists (because they may have experienced it in some way/ways), then it does, while if a million people say God exists (because they may have experienced it in some way/ways), that is less reliable?

if i could put a magnetic field around someone's head and they suddenly saw a horse when i did so, does that mean horses don't exist?

It means the 'horse' may only exist as a mental experience. Few would deny that 'God' exists as a concept and possible experience - it's whether He is more than this which needs to be proved. What sort of a God can be eliminated just by taking a magnet away from someone's head?

A million people saying that something is the case doesn't make it so, but if a million people conduct sound horse research (which is transparent and open to criticism) and conclude there is a horse then it is highly likely that there is, thus the existence of the horse is established as a recognised 'fact'.

You really want to get into this subjectivist/idealist nonsense? You must be getting desperate.
 
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  • #99
Prove that God does exist or prove that he does not exist.. What is proof? Proof is local individual perception.. The proof of anything is only through the eyes of the observer.. Everything is fallible except the individuals proof.. The proof is set by the individuals paramenters for it.. Proof that God does or does not exist is provable only if you want to prove it to yourself.
 
  • #100
We cannot make that assumption.
so we assume the contrary.

If the drug or other 'artificial' stimulus is the cause of an experience, then the experience will occur in the presence of the stimulus and not when it is absent. It is really IMO activity of a certain sort in the temporal lobes which *is* the experience and this activity can occur 'spontaneously' or artificially. Yes, the spontaneous activity could hypothetically have an invisible cause (like 'God'). But you are missing the point. These experiments show that 'God' is not a necessary factor for such experiences, therefor using such experiences as evidence for god is unsound, which was my original point.


the reason why those experiences occur spontaneously is what?


The relationship seems to be an ordinary causal one:
stimulate temporal lobe > religious experience
stop stimulation > experience ends

It happens when the neuroscientist wills - it doesn't rely on God's will.
what about this situation:
The relationship seems to be an ordinary causal one:
X > certain (consciousness/brain) state permitting > religious experience
X > certain (consciousness/brain) state preventing > experience ends

or
X > religious experience
X stops > experience ends

the idea is that there is some sense (call it the third eye for lack of better term) that can percieve aspects of God that the normal five senses can't perceive and some things facilitate the opening of the third eye and some things facilitate the closing of the third eye.

it's still logically unsound, as far as i can tell, to attribute divinity to whatever may be leading to religious experiences (the phrase spiritual experiences is more apt in some cases).


It means the 'horse' may only exist as a mental experience. Few would deny that 'God' exists as a concept and possible experience - it's whether He is more than this which needs to be proved. What sort of a God can be eliminated just by taking a magnet away from someone's head?
why would you say God is eliminated when the magnet is taken away? if i close my eyes and no longer perceive a horse, is it no longer there?
A million people saying that something is the case doesn't make it so, but if a million people conduct sound horse research (which is transparent and open to criticism) and conclude there is a horse then it is highly likely that there is, thus the existence of the horse is established as a recognised 'fact'.
yes, and how do these researchers let you know they've done what you think is sound research? by either saying it or other communication. are you sure there's no sound research done in the arena of what you're talking about? the convienient notion perpetuated is that, as far as i know, few scientists are willing to investigate divinity and therefore adherents to science can say that no sound research has been done. i would like to get my hands on some of the work done by david hawkins, a scientist working in these areas.

You really want to get into this subjectivist/idealist nonsense? You must be getting desperate.

the idea was whether or not a perception being recreatable by something other than the object of perception being there proves that object does not exist.
 

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