Is This a Case of Motional emf?

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    Emf Motional emf
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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers on the concept of motional electromotive force (emf) in the context of a wire moving through a magnetic field, particularly when considering the movement of a magnet towards the wire. Participants explore the conditions under which emf is generated, referencing different reference frames and the implications of Faraday's law.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant posits that a moving wire through a magnetic field generates motional emf, questioning if the same applies when the magnet moves towards the wire.
  • Another participant clarifies that the classification of emf as motional depends on the reference frame, explaining that in a stationary magnet frame, the emf is motional, while in a stationary wire frame, it arises from the changing magnetic field according to Faraday's law.
  • A participant seeks clarification on whether there would be a potential difference in the wire due to a non-electrostatic emf, suggesting that the total emf would be zero.
  • Another participant mentions that a moving magnet generates an electric field, which could induce emf in the wire.
  • One participant reiterates that the force on charge carriers is due to the electric field from the changing magnetic field.
  • A participant points out that a circuit is necessary for the emf to be relevant, which leads to a discussion about the applicability of Faraday's law without a circuit.
  • There is an acknowledgment of potential misunderstanding regarding the necessity of a circuit for the emf discussion.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the necessity of a circuit for emf to be present and the classification of emf based on reference frames. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the implications of these differing perspectives.

Contextual Notes

Participants note that the discussion hinges on the definitions of emf and the conditions under which it is generated, highlighting the dependence on reference frames and the presence of a circuit.

MS La Moreaux
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If a straight length of wire moves in a suitable direction through the magnetic field of a magnet, there will be a motional emf in the wire. If the magnet moves toward the wire, is there an emf in the wire, motional or otherwise?
 
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Strictly, no. Whether the emf is classed as motional or not depends on your reference frame.

If your frame is one in which the magnet is stationary and the wire moves, you have a motional emf. It can be thought of as arising from the qvxB forces on the charge carriers in the conductor, as the conductor moves through space.

If you are in a frame in which the magnet moves and the wire is stationary, but part of a circuit, there will be an emf in that circuit according to the Faraday/Maxwell equation
\oint Edl = -\int\int \frac{\partial B}{\partial t}dA. The line integral is evaluated around the closed loop of the circuit, and the surface integral over any surface bounded by the circuit. So the force on the charge carriers is qE, arising from the electric field produced by the changing magnetic field.

Faraday's description of the phenomenon – the emf arises when the magnetic flux linking a circuit changes – fits in either reference frame.
 
Last edited:
Thanks. It is as I suspected. To be more precise I should have asked if there would be a potential difference between the ends of the wire, arising from a non-electrostatic emf induced in the wire. The TOTAL emf would be zero in that case, also.
 
It has been pointed out to me elsewhere that a moving magnet is accompanied by an electric field. Therefore, the wire, being in that field, will have an emf.
 
That's what I meant when I said (above) "So the force on the charge carriers is qE, arising from the electric field produced by the changing magnetic field."
 
Yes, but you specified that there had to be a circuit, and there is none.
 
I did indeed specify a circuit, as I was trying to deal with the case of an emf in a wire, as posed in your original question. But I agree that the Faraday/Maxwell equation that I quoted does not require the line integral to be taken around a conducting circuit. I'm sorry if I inadvertently misled.
 
No problem; I believe that it is all clear, now. Thanks.
 

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