Is this a good salary for a software developer?

[trickslapper]

I'm fresh out of college (21 years old) and i was recently offered an offer for 25/hour (40 hours) as an entry level software developer.

My original plan was to go to graduate school but, ~52,000+ sounds too good for me to pass up. The company also supports its employees by paying for them to go to school if it helps their career within the company. So my plan if i took this offer would be to attend graduate school part-time while i gain practical experience.

What do you guys think?

 

[gbeagle]

It really depends on where the job is (I'm assuming you are in the US). In most of the country that is an okay salary for a new grad in a software job. If it is in a big city like say NYC, Chicago, or Boston which also have high costs of living, then it's actually a pretty low salary. If the job is in the state of California and especially if it is in the Bay Area, DO NOT TAKE THAT JOB! That salary is way, way under the market rate.

As to the graduate school part - it really depends on what you want your career to be. Did you want to do a masters or PhD? What field do you want to go to graduate school in?

 

[trickslapper]

The position is in north carolina actually. I want to do a masters and i think i'll be going into a computational mathematics program. I don't know for sure where i want my career to settle but, i know that i want it to be a good marriage of math and programming skills.

 

[pi-r8]

There's a good chance you can get more if you negotiate.

 

[jesse73]

assuming you haven't negotiated

 

[jtbell]

I suppose this is for either the Triangle area (Raleigh / Durham / Chapel Hill) or the Charlotte area? My feeling is that 52K is likely to be a pretty decent starting salary, but check out typical housing costs. (I'm in a rural area of the Carolinas, where 52K goes a long way.)

 

[trickslapper]

@jtbell the position is indeed in Charlotte. I actually have negotiated from 50k to 52k also.

Maybe I'm different than most of you but, that much money seems like a lot to me. I also don't have any other job offers at the moment.

 

[gbeagle]

The position is in north carolina actually. I want to do a masters and i think i'll be going into a computational mathematics program. I don't know for sure where i want my career to settle but, i know that i want it to be a good marriage of math and programming skills.

I grew up in Richmond, Virginia which has a fairly similar cost of living to Charlotte as far as I can tell, so I'd say that salary is probably about right. On the graduate school plan that sounds good to me, especially if your company paying for it.

 

[Locrian]

What are the benefits like?

 

[trickslapper]

Pretty good: vision,dental, medical, 401k matching, etc. The medical is 20ish per paycheck which I thought was a lot but, I don't really know if that's true or not

 

[silverct9a]

I think a few useful questions would be whether you're a physics grad or cs grad and is this position with a financial firm(considering Charlotte is known to be a huge finance hub in the southeast)

 

[Floid]

Not bad for the area. Not sure what the job market is like in that area currently, but if it is an area you want to live in probably worth pursuing.

Another nice option is to see if they have option for tuition assistance (or try to negotiate for it). I had my MS paid for by my company and the company was flexible if I needed to take classes during the day.

 

[phyzguy]

One question. If you work 60 hours some week getting a piece of software out the door, will you:

(1) Get paid for 60 hours @ $25/hour
(2) Get paid for 40 hours @ $25/hour even though you worked 60?
(3) Get paid for 40 hours @ $25/hour + 20 hours @ $37.50/hour (time and 1/2) as per US hourly wage laws?

This can make a big difference. My experience is that software is rarely a 40 hour/week job.

 

[Naty1]

There are several advantages to working while you learn...

you find out what you like to do and what you don't,
company pays for your education,
you EARN while you learn and get practical experience,
Networking with people in the work world [as well as school] can be very beneficial.

On the downside,
working AND going to school can be demanding,
it takes longer to get your degree,
you don't get much in the way of weekends off.

I'd not worry too much about whether or not the money is
great or just competitive...the experience and job content is
what matters...

 

[trickslapper]

I think a few useful questions would be whether you're a physics grad or cs grad and is this position with a financial firm(considering Charlotte is known to be a huge finance hub in the southeast)

I have my bachelors in computer science and math

Not bad for the area. Not sure what the job market is like in that area currently, but if it is an area you want to live in probably worth pursuing.

Another nice option is to see if they have option for tuition assistance (or try to negotiate for it). I had my MS paid for by my company and the company was flexible if I needed to take classes during the day.

Well they have something called tuition reimbursement and it has to be a program that is approved. Hopefully i could convince them that computational math is beneficial to me and my performance with the company.

One question. If you work 60 hours some week getting a piece of software out the door, will you:

(1) Get paid for 60 hours @ $25/hour
(2) Get paid for 40 hours @ $25/hour even though you worked 60?
(3) Get paid for 40 hours @ $25/hour + 20 hours @ $37.50/hour (time and 1/2) as per US hourly wage laws?

This can make a big difference. My experience is that software is rarely a 40 hour/week job.

Option 3.

There are several advantages to working while you learn...

you find out what you like to do and what you don't,
company pays for your education,
you EARN while you learn and get practical experience,
Networking with people in the work world [as well as school] can be very beneficial.

On the downside,
working AND going to school can be demanding,
it takes longer to get your degree,
you don't get much in the way of weekends off.

I'd not worry too much about whether or not the money is
great or just competitive...the experience and job content is
what matters...

I'm not sure if i can handle a full time job AND graduate classes but, I'm going to try my hardest. A friend of mine just got accepted into a phD program and has tuition covered 100% + medical insurance but, he only makes 16k a year to live off of. I don't know that i can - or want - to live like that.

 

[phyzguy]

It sounds to me like you have a pretty good plan. You'll be making good money with benefits, and get your MS paid for as well. There's no tearing hurry to finish the MS, so you can take courses at a rate you can handle. This way you'll be getting the advanced degree and getting practical experience at the same time. I'd say go for it.

 

[Vanadium 50]

(3) Get paid for 40 hours @ $25/hour + 20 hours @ $37.50/hour (time and 1/2) as per US hourly wage laws?.

"US hourly wage laws", by which I assume you mean FLSA, do not require this. $25/hour passes the salary test, and programming requires "advanced knowledge"

 

[Locrian]

Pretty good: vision,dental, medical, 401k matching, etc. The medical is 20ish per paycheck which I thought was a lot but, I don't really know if that's true or not

$20 per paycheck is not a lot unless you're getting paid weekly. You could ask what the employer portion of the contribution is, but it probably isn't worth it.

My opinion is that this is good entry level compensation for someone with a BS.

 

[bcrowell]

So my plan if i took this offer would be to attend graduate school part-time while i gain practical experience.

Grad school is not a part-time thing. Decide on one or the other.

 

[jesse73]

A lot of people do MBA's part time and despite the impression of MBA's it still is considered grad school.

If he means a science phD that's another matter.

 

[jk]

A MS in computational math can be done part time. In fact there are a lot of programs geared toward working people.

To the OP, the salary sounds fine. I would also look into the company itself. Is it the kind of place you want to be at?

 

[EricVT]

I have a few former classmates who went the programmer route and $52,000 is in line with what they were earning at their first jobs. I think that sounds like a reasonable offer.

Not to mention Charlotte is such a beautiful city and the area offers many things to do. Sounds like a nice place to get your feet wet.

 

[Evo]

Median pay for Software developers with a BS is $90,530 per year. But not all companies pay the same, and different parts of the country are more expensive, so you should expect to get paid more than the median if you live in one of those areas.

This website compiles data on jobs and pay, it's a good reference. It is the US Bureau of Labor Statistics.

http://www.bls.gov/ooh/Computer-and-Information-Technology/Software-developers.htm

Main site http://www.bls.gov/bls/blswage.htm

 

[Saladsamurai]

Grad school is not a part-time thing. Decide on one or the other.

Get out of town. I know plenty of people who did/are doing their MS part time. We can't all be privileged.

$20 per paycheck is not a lot unless you're getting paid weekly. You could ask what the employer portion of the contribution is, but it probably isn't worth it.

My opinion is that this is good entry level compensation for someone with a BS.

I pay $155 USD every other week ... how am I doing? :sarcasm:

 

[Naty1]

An additional consideration:
Start with school plus work, live frugally, change to full time school IF that suits you
better after you have saved some money and gained some experience.

You are NOT bethrothing yourself to this employer for the rest of your life nor are they to you!

 

[trickslapper]

Well thanks for all the information and advice guys. Even if it takes me a while i think i'll be able to earn my masters degree (if i can't, i'll just work for a while and save money before i go to school full time).

I went ahead and accepted the offer. I was holding out for a few more calls but, i haven't received too many of them.

 

[Locrian]

I pay $155 USD every other week ... how am I doing? :sarcasm:

If you're young on a single contract (like trickslapper probably is), it's high. Depending on the State, you may have no other options. New York, for instance, is community rated.

If you're on a family contract then your rate is impacted by State regulations, size of group, benefit plan, rating methodology, and more (edit: tier level will have a big impact, should have included), so it is difficult to tell.

 

[Locrian]

Median pay for Software developers with a BS is $90,530 per year. But not all companies pay the same, and different parts of the country are more expensive, so you should expect to get paid more than the median if you live in one of those areas.

And that 90k is for all experience levels, I believe, so entry level should expect significantly less.

 

[jk]

Median pay for Software developers with a BS is $90,530 per year. But not all companies pay the same, and different parts of the country are more expensive, so you should expect to get paid more than the median if you live in one of those areas.

This website compiles data on jobs and pay, it's a good reference. It is the US Bureau of Labor Statistics.

http://www.bls.gov/ooh/Computer-and-Information-Technology/Software-developers.htm

Main site http://www.bls.gov/bls/blswage.htm

For entry level? I seriously doubt it

 

[Saladsamurai]

If you're young on a single contract (like trickslapper probably is), it's high. Depending on the State, you may have no other options. New York, for instance, is community rated.

If you're on a family contract then your rate is impacted by State regulations, size of group, benefit plan, rating methodology, and more (edit: tier level will have a big impact, should have included), so it is difficult to tell.

Yeah, sorry. I was being a twit. I know it's high. I'm in Massachusetts. My girlfriend pays 10 USD per week since her employer covers 98%. Can't wait to get married!

 

[Floid]

Few comments:

I did my MSEE while working, wasn't too bad but I generally only took one class a semester. A PhD might be a completely different matter, but I don't think any MS is too hard to get while working. I would be surprised if computational math was not reimbursable, my company would pay for anything related to engineering, computer science, or math.

Your health insurance rate is really good. From the few places I have worked it is common to pay $100-200 a month single and $200-300 a month for family insurance even with company assistance.

The deal is even better if you actually get time and a half overtime. That is a really nice perk.

 

[jesse73]

For entry level? I seriously doubt it

It isnt. Thats the important distinction of that data set which is that it lumps in all people working who only have a BS whether they have 20yrs experience or 0.

 

[Evo]

For entry level? I seriously doubt it

I thought they used to break down pay by brand new, and 5 years, it appears they may be averaging it all together. The information is taken from actual payrolls. The site has a wealth of information for job seekers.

Pay About this section
Software Developers
Median annual wages, May 2010

Software Developers, Systems Software $94,180
Software Developers $90,530
Software Developers, Applications $87,790
Total, All Occupations $33,840

Note: All Occupations includes all occupations in the U.S. Economy.

Source: U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics, Occupational Employment Statistics

The median annual wage of applications developers was $87,790 in May 2010. The median wage is the wage at which half the workers in an occupation earned more than the amount and half earned less. The lowest 10 percent earned less than $54,360, and the top 10 percent earned more than $133,110. The median annual wage of systems developers was $94,180 in May 2010. The lowest 10 percent earned less than $61,040, and the top 10 percent earned more than $143,330.

Most software developers work full time, and long hours are common. Nearly one-fourth worked more than 40 hours per week in 2010.

http://www.bls.gov/ooh/Computer-and-Information-Technology/Software-developers.htm#tab-5

 

[jesse73]

It really would help knowing what percentage of all software developers were entry level (is it 10%?) and what the range of pay was across different cities and state. Averaging out all these variables (exp level/location) makes it hard to compare to one number in one city/state like NC.glassdoor allows you to account for some of these variables by searching for positions in the exp level and city that seems relevant

http://www.glassdoor.com/Salaries/index.htm

 

[trickslapper]

Well I've asked some of my friends that i went to school with what they thought about my offer. All of them were surprised and thought it was a good offer. I feel better about taking this offer after this thread and talking to my classmates.
thanks again everyone

 

[Punkyc7]

For entry level? I seriously doubt it

I know some one you got 95,000 plus 20,00 stock and full benefits. It just depends on where you work and for what company.

 

[jesse73]

I know some one you got 95,000 plus 20,00 stock and full benefits. It just depends on where you work and for what company.

I think others have said that. I know somebody working at google making 120+ one year in the job but I know its an outlier case which would be awful to use to represent the average person or expectations.

 

[jk]

I know some one you got 95,000 plus 20,00 stock and full benefits. It just depends on where you work and for what company.

If this happens, it's not very common. I can see some of the financial companies in NY paying something like this for someone from a "brand name" school with the right background but it's not common

 

[trickslapper]

I've never heard of anyone making that much money out of undergraduate from where I'm from.

In other news... does anyone know if it's a good idea to get a 401k AND an HSA? I just got my benefits paperwork and it's a little overwhelming.

 

[Astronuc]

I've never heard of anyone making that much money out of undergraduate from where I'm from.

In other news... does anyone know if it's a good idea to get a 401k AND an HSA? I just got my benefits paperwork and it's a little overwhelming.

The salary looks good for a starting salary. Charlotte has UNC-Charlotte, so that's a possibility.

If one does not need the money now, it is good to start saving for retirement as soon as one can. These days a 401K is standard, as opposed to a pension. HSAs are OK to cover deductibles, and some health plans have high deductibles and out of pocket expenses, for which one can use the HSA. An HSA simply deducts money, pretax, and one can then use it for medical expenses. If it rolls over and accumulates, that's good, as opposed to a FSA, in which one loses funds not spent.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_savings_account

 

[trickslapper]

The salary looks good for a starting salary. Charlotte has UNC-Charlotte, so that's a possibility.

If one does not need the money now, it is good to start saving for retirement as soon as one can. These days a 401K is standard, as opposed to a pension. HSAs are OK to cover deductibles, and some health plans have high deductibles and out of pocket expenses, for which one can use the HSA. An HSA simply deducts money, pretax, and one can then use it for medical expenses. If it rolls over and accumulates, that's good, as opposed to a FSA, in which one loses funds not spent.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_savings_account

Everything i have read about HSAs has confused me. People say to use it as a 401k but, it's a medical expenses account.

Why don't people have a 401k for their retirement and the HSA for medical expenses?

 

[jk]

Everything i have read about HSAs has confused me. People say to use it as a 401k but, it's a medical expenses account.

Why don't people have a 401k for their retirement and the HSA for medical expenses?

401k is a retirement account and HSA is for paying health expenses. They are two different things.

I would get the 401k and put the maximum allowable amount (17k/year this year) on it. It is one of the best financial decisions you can make. In addition to saving money for retirement, it also lowers your taxable income so if you make 52,000 a year and put away 17,000 into the retirement account, you only pay taxes on 35,000. In addition, a lot of companies will give you matching money into your 401k account up to some percentage. I would also looking into getting an IRA account in addition to your 401k

I would also get the HSA but make sure to estimate your medical expenses. If you're young and healthy, you usually don't need to put much into your HSA account. Just enough to cover the cost of annual checkups, glasses, prescriptions etc. Whatever money you don't spend by the end of the year is usually forfeited. Optometrists love HSA's b/c people buy extra glasses etc at the end of the year if they have money left in their accounts. Check the rules for your plan

Also, learn as much as you can about retirement plans, investments etc. The decisions you make now will have a large impact on your life down the line.

 

[lisab]

The salary looks good for a starting salary. Charlotte has UNC-Charlotte, so that's a possibility.

If one does not need the money now, it is good to start saving for retirement as soon as one can.

I'd suggest that even if you do need the money now, still put a bit away for retirement. At least put enough into maximize your company's match. After all, that's free money!

 

[Locrian]

If you're young and healthy, you usually don't need to put much into your HSA account. Just enough to cover the cost of annual checkups, glasses, prescriptions etc. Whatever money you don't spend by the end of the year is usually forfeited.

As astronuc mentioned, an HSA is not forfeited. If you've heard otherwise it could be that there is some confusion between a Canadian Health Spending Account (HSA) and a US Health Savings Account (HSA). The Canadian HSA has a one year rollover of funds OR a one year carryover of claims.

To be clear, the US HSA is not forfeited, and is the property of the employee. For comparison, an HRA is a Health Reimbursement Arrangement (also US), and is the property of the employer. It may or may not be rolled over, at the employer's discretion.

Why don't people have a 401k for their retirement and the HSA for medical expenses?

Some people do have a 401(k) for retirement savings and an HSA for medical expenses. If you go this route, I would use them for those purposes. Note that some people use the HSA as a savings account due to its tax advantages, but I would be surprised if you had enough money left over that this would be a good idea, and would generally advise against it anyways, for a variety of reasons.

An HSA with a high deductible plan is a great deal for a young person. However, you need to be responsible enough to put money away (in the HSA, for instance) to cover the high deductible, copays and coinsurance that would be required in a catastrophic incident. If you don't think you can do that, sign up for a more comprehensive health plan.

 

[trickslapper]

Some people do have a 401(k) for retirement savings and an HSA for medical expenses. If you go this route, I would use them for those purposes. Note that some people use the HSA as a savings account due to its tax advantages, but I would be surprised if you had enough money left over that this would be a good idea, and would generally advise against it anyways, for a variety of reasons.

An HSA with a high deductible plan is a great deal for a young person. However, you need to be responsible enough to put money away (in the HSA, for instance) to cover the high deductible, copays and coinsurance that would be required in a catastrophic incident. If you don't think you can do that, sign up for a more comprehensive health plan.

So how do the people who use the HSA as a savings account pay for their medical expenses until their deductible is reached? Out of pocket?

Isn't it a better idea to take advantage of the n% contribution that a company offers for a 401k instead of using the HSA as a "401k"?

To be honest I'm a little overwhelmed with all of this. I just received a bunch of paperwork (i have a pdf with over 300 pages that describes all the benefits) from my company and I've never had to think about this sort of stuff. Good news is i have a whole month to read up and make good decisions.

 

[akdude1]

Don't let salary limit you from doing what you love. but anyway 25 bucks an hour for an entry level job is too good to pass up I'd do it...

 

[Astronuc]

So how do the people who use the HSA as a savings account pay for their medical expenses until their deductible is reached? Out of pocket?

The benefit of HSAs or FSAs is that the money is taken pre-tax, to it reduces one's taxable income, and the tax that one pays in that year. The HSA is beneficial since it accumulates, i.e., one doesn't lose it. It's better if it does not have to be used. Ideally, it would accumulate until one needs it for a serious illness, or if one were to get married and have children, which can cost a lot, and eventually when one retires in 45-50 years, although I'm not sure how HSAs carry over if one leaves a company.

Isn't it a better idea to take advantage of the n% contribution that a company offers for a 401k instead of using the HSA as a "401k"?

It is better to take advantage of any amount that the company matches.

To be honest I'm a little overwhelmed with all of this. I just received a bunch of paperwork (i have a pdf with over 300 pages that describes all the benefits) from my company and I've never had to think about this sort of stuff. Good news is i have a whole month to read up and make good decisions.

Yes - it is overwhelming, but it's part of the modern business world.

 

[Locrian]

Isn't it a better idea to take advantage of the n% contribution that a company offers for a 401k instead of using the HSA as a "401k"?

Absolutely.

To be honest I'm a little overwhelmed with all of this. I just received a bunch of paperwork (i have a pdf with over 300 pages that describes all the benefits) from my company and I've never had to think about this sort of stuff. Good news is i have a whole month to read up and make good decisions.

Take your time and really learn about it. This could end up being a significant portion of your compensation. There are several reasons group benefits are popular. One is that there are fundamental benefits to insuring groups (reduces anti-selection). Another is the tax advantage that the benefits receive.

Some of the benefits probably don't have much value to you. Group life, for instance, is taxed on benefits over $50k, and isn't something you likely need much of now, so you may choose not to go over 1x salary. Some of the post retirement welfare benefits probably have no value to you - what are the odds you'll be working there for the rest of your life? They're likely not pre-funded, so if you leave you'll receive no benefit from them.

Finally note that if this is a smallish business, your health plan will change radically in 2014 due to the Affordable Care Act. If it is large (>100 employees) then that act will have little impact on you (though your employer could still choose to make other changes).