Isolation transformer: Potential difference to the earth

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the functioning and safety implications of isolation transformers, particularly focusing on the potential differences to the earth and the associated risks of electric shock. Participants explore theoretical aspects, practical safety considerations, and the implications of grounding in electrical systems.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant notes that in a standard power plug, the neutral is at the same potential as the Earth, making it safe to touch, while the line carries the full voltage difference.
  • Another participant clarifies that grounding one terminal of an isolation transformer affects the voltage with respect to ground, stating that if one terminal is grounded, the other can be at 240V or -240V depending on which terminal is grounded.
  • A participant expresses curiosity about the initial charge exchange when grounding a terminal and questions how to calculate the resulting current, suggesting it is likely very low.
  • There is a discussion about the rationale behind using ground as a potential reference, with one participant questioning whether circuits could be safer if completely disconnected from ground.
  • Another participant agrees with the mention of stray capacitance being small and emphasizes that safety considerations are complex, highlighting the need for a low resistance path to ground in various accident scenarios.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express varying viewpoints on the implications of grounding and the safety of isolation transformers. There is no consensus on whether circuits should be completely disconnected from ground or the best practices for grounding in electrical systems.

Contextual Notes

Participants mention the need to consider stray capacitance and the complexities of safety in electrical systems, indicating that assumptions about simple scenarios may not capture the full picture.

greypilgrim
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Hi.

In a normal power plug, neutral is on the same potential as the Earth and therefore, in theory, safe to touch. Line carries the full voltage difference and is dangerous if the body provides a conducting connection to the earth, since this closes the circuit to neutral.

Isolation transformers essentially remove the connection of neutral to the earth, so one can only close the circuit (and get shocked) by touching both connections.

I don't quite understand how this works in terms of voltage differences. If the voltage difference between the connections is 240V, at least on of the connections has a voltage difference of at least 120V to the earth. Why is there still no (potentially dangerous) current if one touches one connection (and is sufficiently connected to the earth)?
 
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greypilgrim said:
If the voltage difference between the connections is 240V, at least on of the connections has a voltage difference of at least 120V to the earth.
Not really. The voltage with respect to the two connections is fixed, but the voltage with respect to ground is not. So if you ground one terminal then the other will be at 240V, but it you ground the other then the first will be at -240V.
 
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I see. If I ground one terminal, there must be some initial charge exchange to bring this terminal to the same potential as earth. I assume the caused current is very low, but how could I calculate it?

Why do we even use ground as the potential reference for the line? Wouldn't it be a lot safer to have circuits that are completely disconnected from the ground? So electric shocks could only occur if both connections in a power plug are touched simultaneously.
 
greypilgrim said:
I see. If I ground one terminal, there must be some initial charge exchange to bring this terminal to the same potential as earth. I assume the caused current is very low, but how could I calculate it?
You would have to know the stray capacitance of the circuit and then have some way of determining the voltage wrt ground without any resistive leakage. Then to a first approximation it would just be discharging that small capacitance and voltage.

greypilgrim said:
Why do we even use ground as the potential reference for the line? Wouldn't it be a lot safer to have circuits that are completely disconnected from the ground? So electric shocks could only occur if both connections in a power plug are touched simultaneously.
I am sure there is a good reason, but I don't know it. Perhaps @anorlunda can shed some insight.
 
greypilgrim said:
I see. If I ground one terminal, there must be some initial charge exchange to bring this terminal to the same potential as earth. I assume the caused current is very low, but how could I calculate it?

Why do we even use ground as the potential reference for the line? Wouldn't it be a lot safer to have circuits that are completely disconnected from the ground? So electric shocks could only occur if both connections in a power plug are touched simultaneously.

@Dale was right about stray capacitance. It is really small.

Safety is a tricky subject because it is needed when things go wrong in unexpected ways rather than the immediate simplest case you imagine, like one finger touching one wire. For most accident or mis-wiring scenarios, you want to have a low resistance path to ground that does not go through your body.

[PLAIN]https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isolation_transformer said:
[/PLAIN]
An isolation transformer is a transformer used to transfer electrical power from a source of alternating current (AC) power to some equipment or device while isolating the powered device from the power source, usually for safety reasons. Isolation transformers provide galvanic isolation and are used to protect against electric shock, to suppress electrical noise in sensitive devices, or to transfer power between two circuits which must not be connected. A transformer sold for isolation is often built with special insulation between primary and secondary, and is specified to withstand a high voltage between windings.
Isolation transformers block transmission of the DC component in signals from one circuit to the other, but allow AC components in signals to pass. Transformers that have a ratio of 1 to 1 between the primary and secondary windings are often used to protect secondary circuits and individuals from electrical shocks between energized conductors and Earth ground. Suitably designed isolation transformers block interference caused by ground loops. Isolation transformers with electrostatic shields are used for power supplies for sensitive equipment such as computers, medical devices, or laboratory instruments.
 
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