Isomorphic groups that have different properties?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the properties of isomorphic groups, specifically exploring what differences exist between them beyond the naming of elements. Participants examine the implications of isomorphism in group theory and the subtleties that arise in practical examples.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants suggest that isomorphic groups differ primarily in the labeling of their elements and operations.
  • Others argue that the differences can be more subtle, as seen in the example of cyclic groups where the choice of a distinguished generator can affect the perception of isomorphism.
  • A specific example is provided regarding the group of units in the ring Z/p, where multiple generators exist, complicating the identification of a natural isomorphism with Z/(p-1).
  • One participant notes that while (Z/p)* and Z/(p-1) are isomorphic, the correspondence between elements is not straightforward due to the lack of a naturally distinguished generator.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants generally agree that isomorphic groups differ in their element labeling, but there is disagreement on the implications of this difference, particularly regarding the selection of generators and the naturalness of isomorphisms.

Contextual Notes

The discussion highlights limitations in understanding isomorphism, particularly in the context of generators and the subtleties involved in defining isomorphisms between groups.

tgt
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What are some properties apart from the actual names of the elements that differ between isomorphic groups?
 
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tgt said:
What are some properties apart from the actual names of the elements that differ between isomorphic groups?

Your question actually is - what, in general, are the differences between different groups?

Elements and the defined binary operation.
 
that's pretty much it. Two isomorphic groups (or fields or... pretty much anything isomorphic) differ only in the "labeling": what you name the elements and operations.
 
in practice it is sometimes a little more subtle than it seems.

e.g. we usually give a cyclic group in the form (Z/n,+) but may not notice that this gives not only the group but also a distinguished generator, namely 1.

the group( (Z/p)*, .) of units in the ring Z/p is also cyclic when p is a prime, but it may not be immediately clear what a generator is. moreover since there are many generators, (Z/p)* and no one is naturally distinguished, there is no completely natural way to choose an isomorphism between the groups (Z/p)* and Z/(p-1).

i.e. in a sense, ({1,2,3,...,p-1}, . ) are just different names for ({0,1,2,...,p-2},+) but it is not clear which new nAME CORRESPONDS TO WHICH OLD NAME.

e.g. when p = 7, (Z/7)* is isomorphic to Z/6, and the least generator is 3, perhaps it is natural to associate n with 3^n, for n=0,...,5, but I am not sure this generator is always best.
 

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