I've finally hit a wall with math

[MarcZZ]

Hi folks, I'm just going to cut to the chase. I'm not sure I can survive my Chemistry major, as I am being tormented by my performance in math. I need to take 5 math courses (Calc I, II, II, LA I, and ODE I) of those I've completed two Calc I (84%) and LA I (51%) and am now taking Calc II and I'm not doing very well in it (I got a 30% on the first midterm...) and have now taken desperate measures to get a tutor so I can pass this course. However the damage I think has been done with these courses and I'm seriously questioning my ability to get through my Chemistry degree even though I'm getting A's in both my Chemistry and Physics (Electricity and Magnetism) course. Do complicate measures further when I went to my academic advising center they suggested I may have developed a math test anxiety which is killing me on all my tests. What do I do??

Edit: I should mention, that I am very discouraged with my math abilities right now. I DO WANT TO LEARN IT. It's just that I'm not sure how these failures will reflect on me when it comes to future job prospects and such. With that LA course I got a 12% on the first midterm and worked my butt off to pass. I'm just wondering if I should retake these courses so I know I can do well to build confidence before I continue on with Chemistry. Thanks.

 

[seaofghosts]

If you're doing well in physics but not calc II, and you did well in calc I, you shouldn't consider this an ability thing. But without seeing what went wrong on your test(s), it's hard to really suggest anything... Were you missing the big picture, or just making small mistakes that you groan over later, like missing negatives or blanking on formulas?

If your problem is test anxiety rather than ability, I like this list: http://www-ugs.csusb.edu/sail/study_skills/overcomingtestanxiety.pdf

I like it because it goes beyond the standard "get plenty of sleep, eat a good breakfast, relax", because those never help. I do that anyway! I think when it comes to test anxiety, the most important thing is to take your time and remember to look at the minute details. Also, one of the things on the list is to remember that bad scores or overall grades do NOT make you a failure. You can still get a chemistry degree and become successful in your field if you have to re-take a class or two. It takes some people longer than others to really get things, especially in courses as hard as calc II.

As for whether you should re-take courses even though you've passed... that's really up to you. Some might find it enough to do extensive reviews over the summers instead, but if you have the money and are willing to possibly extend your degree by a semester or so, then go for it. But I think for certain disciplines there are aspects of things like LA and calc that matter more than in others, so it might be enough to study on your own if you're able to pass your classes. If you're planning on going to grad school, then I would say ask your advisor how your grades will affect the admissions process down the line.

 

[chiro]

Hey MarcZZ and welcome to the forums.

My suggestion is to use your resources: this forum is but one resource that you can use where you have access to quite a number of people who have a lot of experience and also a way to explain something from a point of view that can make things make sense.

If you are not acqainted with mathematics or see the symbols instead of the ideas, then consider posing a question somewhere and if its well posed and thought out and you have shown effort in its construction, then someone (usually many) are bound to answer it.

 

[Group_Complex]

Sadly, most people have a limit in grasping higher mathematics, yours may be calculus.

 

[chiro]

We all have our differences, but one thing about a good teacher is that they can make something like ridiculously easy when compared to another teacher who can make something ridiculously hard.

Most people look at math and see symbols, rules and formulas, instead of ideas that can be related to things that are intuitive to them.

Good teachers extract the ideas and bad teachers emphasize the cryptic symbols without any intuition.

 

[MarneMath]

Let's not make hasty conclusions. I earnestly believe anyone can learn the material in Calc II to at least the level to pass the course. From what I understand, the day to day life of Chemist after their undergrad isn't so mathematically intense. Keep in mind I have limited relations with chemist, but there is one I knew quite well who is quite successful working for some oil company, and he probably can't tell you anything about calculus. In fact, I'm fairly certain he barely passed it.

You may have formed test anxiety over Mathematics due to the level of stress. I offer no solution, but just simple encouragement that I do believe with enough work and help you can overcome your challenge and go on with your education. Calculus II, for a lot of students, seems to be a stumbling block, but even so, a lot of students end up passing it.

 

[chill_factor]

Calc 2 will seriously come up again. The most important math classes for chemists is going to be calc 1-3 and linear algebra and ODE... well that's all your math requirements actually. But calc 2 is absolutely essential. It comes up in every single important chemistry class: quantum chemistry, stat mech, chemical kinetics, thermo, quantitative analysis, molecular spectroscopy, etc. You also MUST know single variable integration like the back of your hand to tackle calc 3 and ODEs.

Here's the thing: integration is first off extremely nontrivial mathematically. That said, there's methods to the madness.

First is to realize that problems in Calc 2 come in only 5 basic forms:

1. U substitution
2. Integration by Parts
3. Partial Fractions
4. Completing the Square
5. Trig Substitution

The most important skill is to recognize which method will solve what type of integral, then apply that method.

 

[MarcZZ]

I'm at the point where I can't understand anything, and if I waste my time on this course I feel like I'm going to hurt my Physics and Chemistry marks, should I just let this one go, and retry it later, and do a strategic fail so I know what material I'm facing next time around? Thanks.

 

[MathWarrior]

Everyone hits a mathematical wall eventually the trick is whether or not you can power through it and finish anyways. Anyone can, just takes patience, practice, and devotion. I would say even if you end up failing stick out the class your bound to learn something, but still try and do the work.

 

[Dembadon]

Keep giving it your best: worst case scenario is you have to retake the course, which is not the end of the world. Don't overreact and drop your entire degree plan because you're struggling in a course.

I will probably be retaking abstract algebra next semester. It is not ideal, but a lot of it just isn't sinking in like I want it to. This is not an indication that I need to drop my major, I just need more time. I believe the same is true for you. Stick with it and it'll eventually "click."

 

[MarcZZ]

Ok I'll stick through the course and do what I can. However, I'm going to turn all my focus to Physics and Chemistry, as I think this one is kind of a lost cause by this point.

 

[Best Pokemon]

Sadly, most people have a limit in grasping higher mathematics, yours may be calculus.

When does higher mathematics begin?

 

[Dembadon]

When does higher mathematics begin?

Usually when one takes a course in which the primary focus is proving theorems.

 

[lisab]

When does higher mathematics begin?

It's the first class where you work *really really* hard yet still don't get an A.

 

[Sankaku]

When does higher mathematics begin?

Wherever you happen to be, it is usually said to be 3 steps higher.

 

[Hercuflea]

I am having this same problem. I breezed through calc 1-3, diff eq, and linear algebra. Now I am in Complex Variables and I am DYING. I go into my professors office for help every time she has office hours, and I still am barely passing the class. I am generally an A student, but I only am pulling off a C in her class AFTER a 20% curve. As a matter of fact, only one person has an A in there affter the curve. I hope this is not indicative of my ability in maths as a whole.

 

[Group_Complex]

I am having this same problem. I breezed through calc 1-3, diff eq, and linear algebra. Now I am in Complex Variables and I am DYING. I go into my professors office for help every time she has office hours, and I still am barely passing the class. I am generally an A student, but I only am pulling off a C in her class AFTER a 20% curve. As a matter of fact, only one person has an A in there affter the curve. I hope this is not indicative of my ability in maths as a whole.

If you are going to office hours and studying before exams then it probably is an indication that you are reaching your mathematical limit.

 

[RufusDawes]

Hi folks, I'm just going to cut to the chase. I'm not sure I can survive my Chemistry major, as I am being tormented by my performance in math. I need to take 5 math courses (Calc I, II, II, LA I, and ODE I) of those I've completed two Calc I (84%) and LA I (51%) and am now taking Calc II and I'm not doing very well in it (I got a 30% on the first midterm...) and have now taken desperate measures to get a tutor so I can pass this course. However the damage I think has been done with these courses and I'm seriously questioning my ability to get through my Chemistry degree even though I'm getting A's in both my Chemistry and Physics (Electricity and Magnetism) course. Do complicate measures further when I went to my academic advising center they suggested I may have developed a math test anxiety which is killing me on all my tests. What do I do??

Edit: I should mention, that I am very discouraged with my math abilities right now. I DO WANT TO LEARN IT. It's just that I'm not sure how these failures will reflect on me when it comes to future job prospects and such. With that LA course I got a 12% on the first midterm and worked my butt off to pass. I'm just wondering if I should retake these courses so I know I can do well to build confidence befor
e I continue on with Chemistry. Thanks.

There are always trades and traineeships. Get out of university while you're young. It can be a life ruiner.

 

[MarneMath]

I find the above responsive a bit extreme. The guy is having problem in math and doing well in his other classes, so therefore he should quit and and do something else entirely? Seriously?

I think a good number of people struggle in one area in college. It happens. You might fail. That happens too! But guess what, you figure out why and overcome it. I failed Physics I when I was 18 and just out of high school. I dropped out of college, went to the military, got out and went back to college and passed it was a 98. Not only passed that course, but every other physics course I encountered afterward.

While you can argue I matured a bit and learn to study. The thing is that when I was failing Physics I with a 40, I went to the professor daily with help, I went to nearly every study group. I just could not pass a test for the life of me. During my time in the military, I spent a lot of time talking to a lot of different people, but one person who helped me the most was an Officer with a math degree, and he taught me a new way to study that I just wasn't aware of when I was an 18 year old kid. So, what does this mean? You can overcome this. Don't let the negativity from others keep you from trying to obtain your goals.

 

[RufusDawes]

I find the above responsive a bit extreme. The guy is having problem in math and doing well in his other classes, so therefore he should quit and and do something else entirely? Seriously?

I think a good number of people struggle in one area in college. It happens. You might fail. That happens too! But guess what, you figure out why and overcome it. I failed Physics I when I was 18 and just out of high school. I dropped out of college, went to the military, got out and went back to college and passed it was a 98. Not only passed that course, but every other physics course I encountered afterward.

While you can argue I matured a bit and learn to study. The thing is that when I was failing Physics I with a 40, I went to the professor daily with help, I went to nearly every study group. I just could not pass a test for the life of me. During my time in the military, I spent a lot of time talking to a lot of different people, but one person who helped me the most was an Officer with a math degree, and he taught me a new way to study that I just wasn't aware of when I was an 18 year old kid. So, what does this mean? You can overcome this. Don't let the negativity from others keep you from trying to obtain your goals.

Nah I know everything about life.

 

[Group_Complex]

I find the above responsive a bit extreme. The guy is having problem in math and doing well in his other classes, so therefore he should quit and and do something else entirely? Seriously?

I think a good number of people struggle in one area in college. It happens. You might fail. That happens too! But guess what, you figure out why and overcome it. I failed Physics I when I was 18 and just out of high school. I dropped out of college, went to the military, got out and went back to college and passed it was a 98. Not only passed that course, but every other physics course I encountered afterward.

While you can argue I matured a bit and learn to study. The thing is that when I was failing Physics I with a 40, I went to the professor daily with help, I went to nearly every study group. I just could not pass a test for the life of me. During my time in the military, I spent a lot of time talking to a lot of different people, but one person who helped me the most was an Officer with a math degree, and he taught me a new way to study that I just wasn't aware of when I was an 18 year old kid. So, what does this mean? You can overcome this. Don't let the negativity from others keep you from trying to obtain your goals.

As long as his goal is not to become a Mathematician. I am sorry, but some people just have a better aptitude for mathematics and physics than others, and it may get to a point where all apptitude is gone.

 

[MathWarrior]

"Attitude not aptitude determines altitude."

Anyone can go far in math.

 

[Group_Complex]

"Attitude not aptitude determines altitude."

Anyone can go far in math.

If by far you mean do mathematical research then that is clearly not true.

 

[Best Pokemon]

http://terrytao.wordpress.com/career-advice/does-one-have-to-be-a-genius-to-do-maths/

 

[clope023]

If you are going to office hours and studying before exams then it probably is an indication that you are reaching your mathematical limit.

http://www.tumblr.com/tagged/skeptical-hippo

This is bull, studying for complex variables will not be the same as studying for calc 1-3; it doesn't mean they've reached a limit it means they're studying the wrong way.

 

[micromass]

If you are going to office hours and studying before exams then it probably is an indication that you are reaching your mathematical limit.

As long as his goal is not to become a Mathematician. I am sorry, but some people just have a better aptitude for mathematics and physics than others, and it may get to a point where all apptitude is gone.

If by far you mean do mathematical research then that is clearly not true.

Got anything to back up these statements??

 

[DrummingAtom]

Got anything to back up these statements??

Of course he doesn't. If you read his other posts he has concerns about doubting his own ability so he comes on here and tries to make others feel bad.

 

[micromass]

Of course he doesn't. If you read his other posts he has concerns about doubting his own ability so he comes on here and tries to make others feel bad.

I know it's rubbish, but I thought I would give him a chance to defend himself.

 

[WannabeNewton]

Of course he doesn't. If you read his other posts he has concerns about doubting his own ability so he comes on here and tries to make others feel bad.

Everyone was thinking this but you were the only one brave enough to say it :p

 

[dkotschessaa]

Yes, I can't believe what I'm reading about "mathematical limit" and "mathematical walls" and so forth. Full on, unmitigated BS.

There are so many conditions that can determine how you are doing in a class. The time spent, the quality of the time, the quality of the teaching, the resources, how pedantic your teacher is in grading, etc. (Note the absence of the word "aptitude.")

In the scope of your entire career, of which your degree is but one part, and your classes a part of that, your math classes at this point are just a particular hurdle you're going to have to figure out. There is no one answer. You might have to retake a class. You might have to take less classes so you can spend more time on it (and yes, this is more time and possibly tuition.)

There's teacher office hours, online resources (khan academy!), supplemental books, this forum, tutors, improved study habits, repetition, pondering, brute force of will, commitment, time management, stress reduction, meditation, diet, sleep, and exercise. Note again the absence of the word aptitude.

By the way - what kind of things are holding you back? Is it little "dumb mistakes" or a failure to grasp some of the concepts? What might be mischaracterized as "aptitude" is often just some sort of neurological brain fart (a.d.d., dyscalcula/dyslexia, working memory problems, etc.) that can be addressed in direct ways.

-Dave K

 

[dkotschessaa]

Of course he doesn't. If you read his other posts he has concerns about doubting his own ability so he comes on here and tries to make others feel bad.

Ah, so Group complex has a complex. And one other guy was probably being sarcastic. So 60% of the replies here are pretty much bogus.

-Dave K

 

[MarcZZ]

Yes, I can't believe what I'm reading about "mathematical limit" and "mathematical walls" and so forth. Full on, unmitigated BS.

There are so many conditions that can determine how you are doing in a class. The time spent, the quality of the time, the quality of the teaching, the resources, how pedantic your teacher is in grading, etc. (Note the absence of the word "aptitude.")

In the scope of your entire career, of which your degree is but one part, and your classes a part of that, your math classes at this point are just a particular hurdle you're going to have to figure out. There is no one answer. You might have to retake a class. You might have to take less classes so you can spend more time on it (and yes, this is more time and possibly tuition.)

There's teacher office hours, online resources (khan academy!), supplemental books, this forum, tutors, improved study habits, repetition, pondering, brute force of will, commitment, time management, stress reduction, meditation, diet, sleep, and exercise. Note again the absence of the word aptitude.

By the way - what kind of things are holding you back? Is it little "dumb mistakes" or a failure to grasp some of the concepts? What might be mischaracterized as "aptitude" is often just some sort of neurological brain fart (a.d.d., dyscalcula/dyslexia, working memory problems, etc.) that can be addressed in direct ways.

-Dave K

It's just kind of a mix of a bunch of things. Firstly, I underestimated the course and what I needed to study, I suppose I came off feeling a little to sure of my footing from Calculus I and thought that I would be able to grasp integrals as readily as I grasped derivatives (big mistake), I did study and I did all my assignments and did well on them, and managed to answer most of the bonus questions in the book that my professor recommended. However, come test day I went in with about 3 days previous worth of pretty solid math concept practice behind me and I just got absolutely clobbered and only managed to get 30% on the midterm, (the class average was 39%) unfortunately this midterm was weighted as 20% of my mark so I took a huge beating from it. I know it's not the end of the world one bad midterm, but since then I feel I've been struggling to catch up, I went to the professor, I've gotten a tutor, I'm doing whatever I can to try to get ready for the next midterm. However it's next week, and I don't think I'm going to perform well on it, my grades have gone down in my recent assignments, and I'm not understanding the material.

I would invest even more time into this course but by now I'm just completely stressed out, I'm also juggling another nasty time sucking course (E&M) which I'm doing very well in thanks to hard work, and I am very weary of trying to save Calculus II which I don't think I'm going to be able to salvage this semester anyways by this point, and risk killing my E&M mark at the same time. I am just really bothered as I had a similar thing happen to me in LA last semester where I got a (12%) on my first midterm, though I survived that course through sheer grit and all nighters. But I'm not pleased with the mark I got in that course, and I don't have the determination to do that this time as I have practically 0 confidence. My academic advising center has suggested I've developed a math test anxiety. I most certainly have some sort, as I feel stress is obstructing everything I do with this course.

I'm already behind in my studies when I came into university I failed my MPT which set me back a semester last year, then I had second doubts about what I want to major in so took some different courses, now I have a good idea, however I don't think I'll be able to handle the major I'm aiming for if I can't handle 3 tough courses at once, I just feel I'm never going to graduate and that I can't afford to keep treading water in university anymore trying to juggle courses which I'm not passing, and getting nowhere. I haven't failed a course yet, and I have a reasonably high average outside of math (3.7 in Chem, 3.5 in Physics), but I'm just getting slaughtered in math and worried that this is a sign of things to come, and I can't afford to keep taking reduced course load semesters just so I can pass math courses.

I'm in a particular pickle with this course as it is a co-requisite for the Physics I'm doing well in, so if I drop it I won't be able to finish my Physics course, and then I totally waste tons of money this semester for nothing. But I'm destined to get a F on my transcript which I hear has negative ramifications for job prospects afterwards. I'm kind of just wondering if I should go to trade school, because my job prospects afterwards might be ruined by these bad math grades. :/

 

[symbolipoint]

dkotschessaa at least makes some sense. At least doesn't seem too extreme or onesided. Some sensible points are made: Posts #30 and 31.

Aptitude has some significance in learning Mathematics, but effort and studying intelligently are still mandatory. Some people learn Mathematics slower than others. The educational systems are set to make some of them feel bad. Basically if you not pass a course, you must retake it. If you retake it too many times, the school prohibits you from retaking it again - but you should have gotten the help you needed before that.

 

[dkotschessaa]

So, I think it's pretty clear that this has nothing to do with aptitude. It's stress, time, and a whole bunch of other factors.

I've never heard of a job asking for transcripts! They look at the degree, maybe what classes you had, what other kinds of things you have done (research, internships, etc). Have you not heard "D is for diploma!" Maybe you won't get the highest honors, etc, which of course we all want. There's lots of stuff you can do.

Talk honestly to your advisors and professors about your concern for your grades and co-requisites and what not, and see what they say. I mean really honestly, like "I'm stuck and I'm freaking out." They want you to do well, and at least get your degree, even if it feels like they are trying to kill you. That co-req/pre-req stuf stuff is not always as set in stone as it looks...Sometimes they can be flexible, especially if you are doing well in other classes and showing commitment.

-Dave K

 

[MarcZZ]

So, I think it's pretty clear that this has nothing to do with aptitude. It's stress, time, and a whole bunch of other factors.

I've never heard of a job asking for transcripts! They look at the degree, maybe what classes you had, what other kinds of things you have done (research, internships, etc). Have you not heard "D is for diploma!" Maybe you won't get the highest honors, etc, which of course we all want. There's lots of stuff you can do.

Talk honestly to your advisors and professors about your concern for your grades and co-requisites and what not, and see what they say. I mean really honestly, like "I'm stuck and I'm freaking out." They want you to do well, and at least get your degree, even if it feels like they are trying to kill you. That co-req/pre-req stuf stuff is not always as set in stone as it looks...Sometimes they can be flexible, especially if you are doing well in other classes and showing commitment.

-Dave K

I suppose you could say that my aptitude is gone because of stress and loss of confidence. :/ Do you think I should just focus on my Physics and Chem whilst trying to pick up what I can from Calc II to have another go at it, or should I just try to pass it right now. I know I will probably seriously hurt my Physics marks if I do so, and I really don't want to do that. I would almost rather fail a course and get A's in the other 2, than get a D in Calc and a C in Physics. :|

 

[MarcZZ]

I also should mention that when I study it seems to take me forever to do assigned problems, or get answers and I don't feel like I'm very time efficient when I study. Many of my recent assignments of my course I can't even do and have to go in for my profs help lol...

 

[symbolipoint]

This must be a very recent trend in scientific and business culture:

...

I've never heard of a job asking for transcripts! They look at the degree, maybe what classes you had, what other kinds of things you have done (research, internships, etc). Have you not heard "D is for diploma!" ...

-Dave K

 

[Group_Complex]

Of course he doesn't. If you read his other posts he has concerns about doubting his own ability so he comes on here and tries to make others feel bad.

No. I find it irritating that this forum continues to perpetuate politically correct myths such as "Anyone can do advanced math if they work hard at it".

As for my evidence, it is entirely empirical. I never got below 95% in mathematics in my entire life until I took my second course in Abstract Algebra and am now sitting on 70% due to a complete inability to grasp some concepts. My brain had no problem in Real Analysis (I got 98% total in the course with very little study) but when it comes to Algebra I have 0 intuition. At the end of the semester I will be lucky to scrape a B, which rules me out of attending a top graduate school and decent mathematical advisors.

If you want to do well in mathematics, hard work is enough, I put in the hard work, even with some talent for prior mathematics and have ended up with subpar results. I have spoken to my professors and they agree that to work in pure mathematics requires a spark of talent, either you have it or you don't.

 

[MarneMath]

Well, that's a nice opinion to have, and if that is how you choose to view the world, that's fair enough for you. Even if we assume you're absolutely right, I don't see how simplying telling someone "oh you reached your ability give up" is productive. I think the simple fact is that the OP can pass Calc II and finish his Chemistry degree. I also think the other person who jumped in can pass his class and also one day finish his degree.

Your answers seems to be, no they can't, which is a bit of an unproductive answer.

 

[symbolipoint]

Group Complex is trying to say something moderate but members are just not understanding it. Hard work is often important, but so is talent. The distinction is, talent is relative. Top talent in Math means maybe you could get a degree and do good research; less than top talent means you have plenty of room in something that uses or relies on Math.

 

[dkotschessaa]

I suppose you could say that my aptitude is gone because of stress and loss of confidence. :/ Do you think I should just focus on my Physics and Chem whilst trying to pick up what I can from Calc II to have another go at it, or should I just try to pass it right now. I know I will probably seriously hurt my Physics marks if I do so, and I really don't want to do that. I would almost rather fail a course and get A's in the other 2, than get a D in Calc and a C in Physics. :|

You should probably talk to your professors and advisors and see what they recommend. They encounter these kinds of situations a lot, where there are decisions to be made about what to take and what to drop depending on what grade.

 

[dkotschessaa]

I also should mention that when I study it seems to take me forever to do assigned problems, or get answers and I don't feel like I'm very time efficient when I study. Many of my recent assignments of my course I can't even do and have to go in for my profs help lol...

Is it

a) Trouble with larger concepts?
b) dumb mistakes and algebraic stuff? (Switching signs, numbers, etc.)
c) "other"? (not sure what that would be).

 

[dkotschessaa]

No. I find it irritating that this forum continues to perpetuate politically correct myths such as "Anyone can do advanced math if they work hard at it".

This is not what's being said. You are telling a person, based on very limited information, that they are probably at a mythical "wall," and that they may not have the aptitude for something. It's clear that the poster is facing a variety of circumstances involving stress and time management (too much coursework).

As for "anyone can do math..." well it's not as simple as that. The truth is that anyone can do whatever amount of math they want, provided they are willing to put in the time and effort and that they enjoy it enough to do so. There may come a point where someone says "this is too much work, given my aptitude, so maybe I should do something else." This is not the same sentiment as "I'm no good at math and I should give up." There is no wall. Only hills and humps. Or perhaps walls which require tunneling through.

One can always increase ones knowledge, sometimes bounds or by small increments, in whatever subject they can will themselves to do so. This is not politically correct. It is just correct.

As for my evidence, it is entirely empirical. I never got below 95% in mathematics in my entire life until I took my second course in Abstract Algebra and am now sitting on 70% due to a complete inability to grasp some concepts. My brain had no problem in Real Analysis (I got 98% total in the course with very little study) but when it comes to Algebra I have 0 intuition. At the end of the semester I will be lucky to scrape a B, which rules me out of attending a top graduate school and decent mathematical advisors.

You're being dramatic and projecting your perceived failure (a B, really?) onto someone else.

If you want to do well in mathematics, hard work is enough, I put in the hard work, even with some talent for prior mathematics and have ended up with subpar results. I have spoken to my professors and they agree that to work in pure mathematics requires a spark of talent, either you have it or you don't.

Funny, most people I've spoken too have said the opposite. Either you heard them wrong or you need to talk to less cynical professors.

-Dave K

 

[dkotschessaa]

This must be a very recent trend in scientific and business culture:

Aside from a highly hypothetical scenario where an employer will look at employees A and B, otherwise perfectly matched, and say, "this one has a better GPA," I don't remember ever hearing about an employer asking for grades. Are your experiences different?

-Dave K

 

[MathWarrior]

This seems highly relevant to this conversation those who have not watched/heard/seen it might enjoy it. Very informative, for those who might think they aren't that great in math, or are struggling.

https://client.blueskybroadcast.com/siam08/hyman/

 

[clope023]

Aside from a highly hypothetical scenario where an employer will look at employees A and B, otherwise perfectly matched, and say, "this one has a better GPA," I don't remember ever hearing about an employer asking for grades. Are your experiences different?

-Dave K

I was recently at a career fair where my fairly low overall gpa compared to my upper division/ major gpa kept me out of the loop for jobs, but these were internships and jobs for people just graduating. I've heard when one has already worked and have been out of school for a number of years your grades become irrelevant, or something to that effect.

 

[MarcZZ]

I was recently at a career fair where my fairly low overall gpa compared to my upper division/ major gpa kept me out of the loop for jobs, but these were internships and jobs for people just graduating. I've heard when one has already worked and have been out of school for a number of years your grades become irrelevant, or something to that effect.

I'm aware, that after you get into the workforce that your grades become irrelevant. However, getting into the workforce is a major challenge especially if you don't have stellar academics behind you. The constant beating I'm taking in my math courses is making me question whether I should continue, or if it would be practically career suicide to continue so. I really like science, unfortunately I'm being roughed up by the math. :(

 

[clope023]

I'm aware, that after you get into the workforce that your grades become irrelevant. However, getting into the workforce is a major challenge especially if you don't have stellar academics behind you. The constant beating I'm taking in my math courses is making me question whether I should continue, or if it would be practically career suicide to continue so. I really like science, unfortunately I'm being roughed up by the math. :(

I was being roughed up by the math as well when I started college as well (started below college algebra), now I'm a physics and electrical engineering major and am well versed in applied math (know PDE's and complex variables).

The math comes with lots of practice, office hours and lectures aren't enough for me so I do extra study and reading on my own, doing lots of problems from schaum's outlines. I know people don't like working with solutions in this site but doing problems with worked solutions right in front of me helps me to generalize the procedure and now I can do problems and proofs on my own.

Don't get me wrong, I think there's talent; there was a girl in my university who had done calc 1-3, diffy q's, linear algebra, complex variables, and intermediate classical mechanics and she was 17 and still in high school (she's going to caltech now). I don't think that's just hard work alone, but I try not to let cases like her discourage me (thought it does), there's still plenty of work to do in stem IMO.

 

[micromass]

No. I find it irritating that this forum continues to perpetuate politically correct myths such as "Anyone can do advanced math if they work hard at it".

As for my evidence, it is entirely empirical. I never got below 95% in mathematics in my entire life until I took my second course in Abstract Algebra and am now sitting on 70% due to a complete inability to grasp some concepts. My brain had no problem in Real Analysis (I got 98% total in the course with very little study) but when it comes to Algebra I have 0 intuition. At the end of the semester I will be lucky to scrape a B, which rules me out of attending a top graduate school and decent mathematical advisors.

If you want to do well in mathematics, hard work is enough, I put in the hard work, even with some talent for prior mathematics and have ended up with subpar results. I have spoken to my professors and they agree that to work in pure mathematics requires a spark of talent, either you have it or you don't.

Oh, so you're an undergrad yourself? I don't see where you get the experience that aptitude is so important.
I had the same difficulty as you in abstract algebra. I found it very very hard and I couldn't get my brain around it. It was very abstract and I'm very lucky I passed the course. But a year later, I found abstract algebra very easy and I didn't see what the problem was that I was having. And now I'm a PhD student in mathematics, so I ended up alright for somebody with little aptitude, no??

The thing is that abstractions tend to be very hard to grasp and it requires time. Not even working constantly can help you. The concepts really need to sink in for a long time. It's not because you don't understand a concept immediately that you have hit a wall that you can never cross. Quite the contrary. Give it some time. In a year or two you will find that abstract algebra was extremely easy.

In any case, I don't think you should make judgements about others and about how they're not going to make it. Certainly if you're only an undergrad yourself and have little experience in learning abstract topics.

 

[dkotschessaa]

Good for you micromass.

I think even non-abstract math works this way. I never really understand the material in a course until probably the day after the final exam. And even then...

-DaveK