Japan Earthquake: Nuclear Plants at Fukushima Daiichi

[~kujala~]

*Also,*my colleagues warn that the type of bed rock, which geologists identify,*and the strength/suitability of the*bed rock, which soil/geo-engineers determine, is different, ...

This is also something to note.
I am not sure if I understood it correctly but it might refer to a same thing as presented here:

http://iisee.kenken.go.jp/net/yokoi/bedrock/index.htm

In the viewpoint of Earthquake Engineering, it has been proposed, based on the followings, to use the shallower interface of which underlying stratum has from 300 to 700 m/sec of the shear wave velocity. This interface is called "Engineering Bedrock". ...
As the shear wave velocity of upper Earth crust is as homogeneous as from 3000 to 3500 m/sec, the upper interface of the upper Earth crust having 3000 m/sec of the shear wave velocity is called "Seismic Bedrock".

 

[Quim]

It may seem a silly question, but having looked at these data before, I never made it to decide whether "Wind direction" means the direction the wind is coming from, or the direction it is going?

Wind direction is stated as the direction the wind is coming from.

 

[triumph61]

High-res laser scan of the reactor 1 and environs. My, they have been busy.

EDIT: Can't open those .zip files. Can anyone who has luck with opening post them on rapidshare or something?

I have the same problem. CRC Mistake...

 

[Bandit127]

I have the same problem. CRC Mistake...

Let me know if this page works.
http://www.bandit127.com/Nuclear%20Stuff.htm"

If it does I will add the other videos to the page.

It takes a long time though - I have to download, link and then upload.

 

[SteveElbows]

The attached chart from page 2 of the report to IAEA attachment VI-1 shows estimated magnitude of releases over time. It certainly tells the story of how events at reactor 2 contributed to matters according to the analysis. And also a few interesting tales of slightly lower magnitude later on, what happened on March 30th for example?

I found the original source document from the NSC that this data came from, I don't think its available in english though. Much of the data is quite readable in english though. Using dodgy computer translation I can tell that it holds some useful information about the assumptions and data used to reach these conclusions, and some of the uncertainties, but I cannot trust this computer translation enough to talk in detail about this yet.

http://www.nsc.go.jp/anzen/shidai/genan2011/genan031/siryo4-2.pdf

 

[MiceAndMen]

Just to say I doubt of the "qualitative luminescence analysis", since I believe the cam is not in "fix exposition mode", but rather adapts automatically to the lighting conditions, as all webcam do. Except if you have evidence that this is not the case, or if you know very well how this automatic adjustment is done algorithmically, I do not think you can extract meaningful information from such an analysis.

The number of posts here regarding the non-events observed while glued to the Fukushima Webcam Entertainment Network is getting annoying.

 

[clif]

Let me know if this page works.
http://www.bandit127.com/Nuclear%20Stuff.htm

It worked for me on a computer running Ubuntu (linux).

 

[biffvernon]

I have here a chart that contains the general strengths of different rock types. It's in Finnish but I can give some translations. 'Siltstone' is 'lietekivi' and it belongs to a category 25 - 50 Mpa. 'Sandstone' is 'hiekkakivi' and it belongs to a category 50 - 100 Mpa. Of course these are only general guidelines. 'Granite' is 'graniitti' and it's > 250 Mpa.

The trouble with general terms like 'sandstone' and 'mudstone' is that they tell you approximately nothing about the strength and probably nothing about the permeability of the rock.

Sandstone is any sedimentary rock composed of sand grains; mudstone is a sedimentary rock made of much finer particles; siltstone is a sedimentary rock made of particles finer than sand but coarser than mud.

Sandstone may be very weak, crumbling in your hand, if the matrix that holds the sand grains together is weak. At the other extreme a metaquartzite is a rock made of grains of quartz sand cemented together by quartz that has crystallised in conditions of relatively high temperatures and pressures. It's harder and stronger than granite.

In the Fukushima case we seem to be dealing with something not so extreme. It is probably safe to assume that the sandstones and siltstones at the site are quite adequate to build power plants upon (the area of alluvium to the north and to the south has been avoided) and that for most practical purposes the siltstones can be regarded as impermeable to the flow of water while the sandstones will allow the passage of water albeit it at very slow rates. There is likely to be a net flow of water through the rock towards the sea, pressured by rainwater descending from the higher ground inland. Over a period of years one might expect contaminated water to move down and out and released to the Pacific Ocean.

There may be other pathways, joints and bedding planes, even cracks caused by earthquakes, that allow faster flow in complex directions but one needs more site-specific data to judge that.

 

[MiceAndMen]

High-res laser scan of the reactor 1 and environs. My, they have been busy.

EDIT: Can't open those .zip files. Can anyone who has luck with opening post them on rapidshare or something?

The zip files are corrupt according to winrar.

 

[LabratSR]

In WINRAR use the console and check the "Keep Broken Files" box.

 

[MadderDoc]

The zip files are corrupt according to winrar.

My Linux Archive mounter also gives errors during unpacking, although it does produce a reasonably playable wmv. However the resulting 'high resolution laser and whatnot' movie appears to me to be some not overly interesting computer generated graphics of some technical details of the unit 1 cover manipulation.

 

[Bandit127]

The zip files are corrupt according to winrar.

All 4 videos are now hosted on my site at:
http://www.bandit127.com/Nuclear%20Stuff.htm"

They are unzipped, original WMVs from TEPCO, so they will only work on some media players.

I consider this to be 'fair use' of TEPCO's copyright, since the files were hosted on a press release section of their website, but I will be happy remove them on request from TEPCO. http://www.jim-curtis.co.uk/Contact.htm"


EDIT - http://www.izarc.org/" unzipped them for me.

 

[MadderDoc]

Following this forum since a while, thanks to all. This is my first post, Hi everyone! :-)

Just to say I doubt of the "qualitative luminescence analysis", since I believe the cam is not in "fix exposition mode", but rather adapts automatically to the lighting conditions, as all webcam do. Except if you have evidence that this is not the case, or if you know very well how this automatic adjustment is done algorithmically, I do not think you can extract meaningful information from such an analysis.
For instance a cloud could now obscure the moon, the webcam would adjust with more gain and maybe show even more luminescence on average, while in reality it would not be true.

Jeremie

Hi Jeremy, and welcome. I think you are quite right in these observations.

 

[SteveElbows]

My Linux Archive mounter also gives errors during unpacking, although it does produce a reasonably playable wmv. However the resulting 'high resolution laser and whatnot' movie appears to me to be some not overly interesting computer generated graphics of some technical details of the unit 1 cover manipulation.

They got two descriptions the wrong way round. The laser video is really the last one, but its the most broken zip so we don't get to see many seconds of this video at the moment.

 

[MJRacer]

RE: Large emissions from Unit 2

Could it simply be that the emissions from Reactors 1 and 3 are being scrubbed by the torus in each unit and those of Unit 2 are no longer being scrubbed by its damaged torus?

 

[zapperzero]

All 4 videos are now hosted on my site at:
http://www.bandit127.com/Nuclear%20Stuff.htm"

They are unzipped, original WMVs from TEPCO, so they will only work on some media players.

I consider this to be 'fair use' of TEPCO's copyright, since the files were hosted on a press release section of their website, but I will be happy remove them on request from TEPCO. http://www.jim-curtis.co.uk/Contact.htm"


EDIT - http://www.izarc.org/" unzipped them for me.

Thanks a lot. Works a treat.

EDIT: Oh hell and tarnation. No it doesn't. The movies are broken. I'm beginning to suspect I need a system that uses two-byte characters, which I don't have available right now :P. I'll try to get one tomorrow, if no-one cracks it by then.

Anyway, again this stuff is ad usum Delphinii. God forbid they release the actual data. They made a scan and they're keeping it for themselves. We get happy-coloured animations and feelgood pictures of how hard they are working.

 

[clancy688]

EDIT - http://www.izarc.org/" unzipped them for me.

Thanks. So TEPCO does know that HD exists. Interesting. So we probably know now why all people had problems with the zip file. There's probably the last part of the zip missing.

The video number 4 (110614_16) is ~7 MB big, but has a length of 1:38. It stops at ~16 seconds, so there's a large chunk missing.

 

[Pu239]

People in Seattle got on average 5 hot particles per day for the month of April, 2011.
(acc. to Arnie Gundersen, Fairewinds Associates)
Question: What's the known effect of around 5 hot particles a day? The most I can find is the following, indicating a "big" risk of leukemias and cancer - from a study done in the 70s:

http://www.nuc.berkeley.edu/node/4459

Or, anyone with nuclear plant experience know anything about hot particles and what their effects might be?

Many thanks.

 

[Pu239]

People got around 10 particles each in Tokyo. The data is from air filters in Japan and the West Coast.

 

[Joe Neubarth]

People in Seattle got on average 5 hot particles per day for the month of April, 2011.
(acc. to Arnie Gundersen, Fairewinds Associates)
Question: What's the known effect of around 5 hot particles a day? The most I can find is the following, indicating a "big" risk of leukemias and cancer - from a study done in the 70s:

http://www.nuc.berkeley.edu/node/4459

Or, anyone with nuclear plant experience know anything about hot particles and what their effects might be?

Many thanks.

Any ionizing radiation exposure above normal is net additive to the potential for Cancer.

 

[~kujala~]

The trouble with general terms like 'sandstone' and 'mudstone' is that they tell you approximately nothing about the strength and probably nothing about the permeability of the rock.

As far as I understand the velocity of the S-waves are dependent on the strength of the rock ie the harder the rock the faster the S-waves. Faster is better.

So as we know that S-wave velocity in two different earthquakes has been around 520 m/s in Fukushima I think we can make some assumptions based on that. Or can we?
http://varasto.kerrostalo.huone.net/lietekivi_4.png

This would be quite normal S-wave velocity for mudstones/sandstones when compared to those in San Fransisco:
http://varasto.kerrostalo.huone.net/lietekivi_2.png

Actually it's a little on the slow side because the borders are 350 m/s - 750 m/s so in the middle it would be 550 m/s and it's 520 m/s. But I suppose this is something to be expected because we also know that sandstone/siltstone in Fukushima is young (Quaternary).

On the other hand the soil amplification for class C in the above chart is considered not to be as significant as for classes D/E. But it's not the same as for classes A/B where no significant soil amplification is considered.

Some other hints might be found from these drawings - according to Astronuc the numbers in the first one might be pressure gradients. What about the velocities in the second one? Could they be P-wave velocities (1,600 m/s - 1,700 m/s for mudstone):
http://varasto.kerrostalo.huone.net/lietekivi_5.png
http://varasto.kerrostalo.huone.net/lietekivi_6.png

 

[zapperzero]

Could they be P-wave velocities (1,600 m/s - 1,700 m/s for mudstone):
http://varasto.kerrostalo.huone.net/lietekivi_5.png
http://varasto.kerrostalo.huone.net/lietekivi_6.png

So it seems.

 

[Borek]

All 4 videos are now hosted on my site

Are you sure they are properly described?

 

[desertlabs]

Could it be that the white spots are neutron reflectors and the black spots neutron absorbers creating a moderating field for recriticality?!

Yes! It must have been a borderline collie!
Apologies for the physics humor. ;)

Thanks so much for the humour...I needed the comic relief!

 

[desertlabs]

Have a look at the following videos. I'll drop this topic very shortly, but I do want some kind of corroboration, given that this board's topic is: Physics Forums > Engineering > Nuclear Engineering > Japan Earthquake: nuclear plants.

This was not

- a false alarm
- one of the many false alarms
- one of the many frequent steam displays

It was a *massive* and significant steam/vapour display that started with a clearly visible vertical emission of vapour, then blotted out all the other reactors - starting around 2:15 in the first video below. Also look at the 10 second mark in the second video. They look very much like explosions to me:

Here's the video:
2011.06.14 00:00-01:00 / 福島原発ライブカメラ (Live Fukushima Nuclear Plant Cam)
http://www.youtube.com/fuku1live#p/u/9/k-EDceWFovc

2011.06.14 01:00-02:00 / 福島原発ライブカメラ (Live Fukushima Nuclear Plant Cam)
http://www.youtube.com/fuku1live#p/u/8/fg8yGBhoLxU

Not an expert, however, just because the dew-point may enable better visualization of the "steam" does that mean the ongoing release is not "important"?

 

[quark42]

Not an expert, however, just because the dew-point may enable better visualization of the "steam" does that mean the ongoing release is not "important"?

No, it doesn't necessarily mean the releases aren't important. It just means there probably isn't as drastic a change in the amount being released as some interpretations of the visible vapors have suggested (as seen in the videos being discussed above).

I'd also like to see some measurements taken from within the releases (as others have mentioned).

 

[Orcas George]

Tepco plans to create the first nuclear powered Zeppelin:

http://www3.nhk.or.jp/daily/english/15_07.html

The operator of the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear plant will begin to cover the No.1 reactor building with polyester sheets this month to prevent the dispersal of radioactive substances.

The buildings of the No.1, 3, and 4 reactors were severely damaged by explosions and radioactive elements are still being released into the atmosphere. There are fears that heavy rain may hamper the workers' activities and that the rainwater may become contaminated with radioactive materials.

To prevent these situations, Tokyo Electric Power Company, or TEPCO, plans to enclose the reactor buildings with polyester sheets. The covering of the No.1 reactor building will begin later this month.

I hope that this plan makes more sense than it seems to. If the purpose is to contain the gasses and they do in fact make a leakproof covering, they will have created a Zeppelin. If hydrogen is still being produced, they will have made the Hindenberg.

Of course, if they vent the gasses to keep this from happening, then what was the point of exposing all of those workers?

All of this is aside from the fact that 1mm thick polyester is not going to survive a good gale, let alone a typhoon. I have some experience with this, having had a large expensive product shipped from China nicely wrapped in heavy-duty heat shrink poly. The captain of the container ship said that the covering barely made it out of the harbor before being ripped to shreds.

I think that the upshot of this exercise is that Tepco is now going to have to figure out how to dispose of hundreds of meters of shredded, highly contaminated polyester. This will not be easy, to say the least.

Edit: Oh by the way, that stuff floats...

 

[NUCENG]

Tepco plans to create the first nuclear powered Zeppelin:

http://www3.nhk.or.jp/daily/english/15_07.html


I hope that this plan makes more sense than it seems to. If the purpose is to contain the gasses and they do in fact make a leakproof covering, they will have created a Zeppelin. If hydrogen is still being produced, they will have made the Hindenberg.

Of course, if they vent the gasses to keep this from happening, then what was the point of exposing all of those workers?

All of this is aside from the fact that 1mm thick polyester is not going to survive a good gale, let alone a typhoon. I have some experience with this, having had a large expensive product shipped from China nicely wrapped in heavy-duty heat shrink poly. The captain of the container ship said that the covering barely made it out of the harbor before being ripped to shreds.

I think that the upshot of this exercise is that Tepco is now going to have to figure out how to dispose of hundreds of meters of shredded, highly contaminated polyester. This will not be easy, to say the least.

Edit: Oh by the way, that stuff floats...

Might they possibly include hydrogen recombiners and filtered venting? I don't know but that might help!

 

[etudiant]

Tepco plans to create the first nuclear powered Zeppelin:

http://www3.nhk.or.jp/daily/english/15_07.html I hope that this plan makes more sense than it seems to. If the purpose is to contain the gasses and they do in fact make a leakproof covering, they will have created a Zeppelin. If hydrogen is still being produced, they will have made the Hindenberg.

Of course, if they vent the gasses to keep this from happening, then what was the point of exposing all of those workers?

All of this is aside from the fact that 1mm thick polyester is not going to survive a good gale, let alone a typhoon. I have some experience with this, having had a large expensive product shipped from China nicely wrapped in heavy-duty heat shrink poly. The captain of the container ship said that the covering barely made it out of the harbor before being ripped to shreds.

I think that the upshot of this exercise is that Tepco is now going to have to figure out how to dispose of hundreds of meters of shredded, highly contaminated polyester. This will not be easy, to say the least.

Edit: Oh by the way, that stuff floats...

Are there not several stadiums and even Denver Airport covered with some sort of fabric?
I assume this is not shrinkwrap that they plan on using.

In general, surely it is better to keep the dirt collected and try to deal with it immediately than to allow it to waft all over and then to try to clean some of it up as is the case presently.

 

[etudiant]

Edit:
Just read the NHK writeup with the 1 mm poly detail in the story.
That does seem quite inadequate, especially as this is a flat structure, the wind pressure on it will be material.

Apparently this is a temporary initial version which is supposed to be replaced in the longer term by a more robust enclosure to shelter the eventual dismantling of the reactor building.