Japan Earthquake: Nuclear Plants at Fukushima Daiichi

[M. Bachmeier]

It's been a long, long time since I even thought about Ksp (?) - solubility constants in water. But do I remember correctly that CaCO₃ is less soluble in warm water than in cold?

Yes, see:

https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=480954

P.S. the calcium carbonate would not need to precipitate out as it would be a suspension in the water and from my experience it can build fast. The only way I know to get rid of it is to add nitric acid:(

 

[havemercy]

24/03-11h : Reactor Pressure Vessel (RPV) Temperature :
UNIT1 : RPV Water Supply Nozzle T° = 175.3°C | T° at the bottom head of RPV = 182.8°C
UNIT2 : RPV Water Supply Nozzle T° = 100°C | T° at the bottom head of RPV = 105°C
UNIT3 : RPV Water Supply Nozzle T° = 14.1°C (under survey) | T° at the bottom head of RPV = 185.5°C


Is it not the confirmation of the scenario of IRSN regarding reactor number 3 ?

 

[jlduh]

Ok for thread clarity and readability, i repost the complete summary i updated on the last page:

------------------
Ok, I'm going to summarize quickly what is said (and especially what is new) in the latest report from IRSN (published 4 hours ago).
( http://www.irsn.fr/FR/Actualites_pr...Seisme-Japon_Point-situation-24032011-08h.pdf
All the daily reports can be accessed from here:
http://www.irsn.fr/FR/Actualites_presse/Actualites/Pages/201103_situation_au_japon.aspx#1 )1) NEW: the pump for cooling the pool (NOT THE CORE) of N°5 reactor has stopped "automatically" and has now to be repaired. So no more cooling in the pool of reactor 5.

2) NEW: Concerning the reactor 3, they talk about the grey smoke of yesterday and add this sentence:

"Important smoke production has been observed. IRSN is evaluating the potential causes for confinement damages on reactor n°3. One hypothesis reviewed by IRSN is the possibility of the rupture of the reactor vessel followed by an interaction between the corium and the concrete at the bottom of the confinement well".

This the first time the word Corium is put in their reports. Of course everybody knows how serious is this possible scenario (I sent a mail to IRSN 4 days ago about this hypothesis but got no answer so far... except this new sentence of course!), especially when we know that any abrupt contact with a fair amount of water would then probably trigger a big steam explosion (not really different in essence with a phreatomagmatic explosion) with all the consequences we can imagine in terms of radioactive contamination of the air at a certain altitude depending on the magnitude of the explosion and also in terms of "domino effect" towards the rest of the installations and the other reactors. This is my BIG FEAR since the very beginning and would result in a much much bigger mess...

This is only a scenario at this time being, but the scary thing is that they confirm that it is not only a movie scenario it seems.

3) this is not new but i wanted to mention that since their report of 19th March (I double checked when this statement appeared), they consider that the "biological protection over the reactor well n°3 has disappeared" (which is then constantly reported on their satellite picture with annotations added to the report). There is maybe a slight contradiction in their 19th of march report because they both considered in this report:

a) in the paragraph related to the pool: that the "anti-missile protection" (so the concrete plug i think) has been " "probably destroyed" during the H2 explosion of the 14th of March (leading to leaks from the pool and to a reduced maximum water level in the pool).
b) in the paragraph related to the reactor: that the confinement vessel is not leaking

BUT as i mentioned earlier, they modified this last statement in their following reports saying after that the confinement vessel IS leaking (direct leak to the atmosphere).

The words "biological protection disappeared over the confinement well of the reactor" are now constantly put on the annotated satellite picture they include.

4) they also say (not new) that the common pool with 6500 fuel rods (which is the closest building full West of reactor 4) has CURRENTLY NO ELECTRIC SUPPLY and that (new) the japanese injected "by prevention" water yesterday in the pool (which means that some was missing/ evaporating?).

5) concerning reactor n°1 (NEW): they write that the cooling flow in the core has been adjusted to 10M3/h to control the temperature over the core, but that had to be decreased because the pressure in the confinement vessel (which is believed to be intact) was increasing. If this continues, they would need to depressurize the confinement vessel to the atmosphere through the vent.

 

[timeasterday]

The words "biological protection disappeared over the confinement well of the reactor" are now constantly put on the annotated satellite picture they include.

Where is this satellite photo you refer to? Can you post it (or maybe it was and I missed it)?

 

[AntonL]

in the latest report from IRSN (published 4 hours ago).

"Important smoke production has been observed. IRSN is evaluating the potential causes for confinement damages on reactor n°3. One hypothesis reviewed by IRSN is the possibility of the rupture of the reactor vessel followed by an interaction between the corium and the concrete at the bottom of the confinement well".

Please aways provide links hyperlinks so that we can read complete report

 

[jlduh]

UNIT3 : RPV Water Supply Nozzle T° = 14.1°C (under survey) | T° at the bottom head of RPV = 185.5°C@

Well, i believe that unfortunately, this is one more confirmation that the reactor 3 is in direct contact with the environnement, with a so low water temp (if the reading is confirmed to be true)... I would have liked to be wrong when thinking from the video analysis and other elements that the reactor n°3 had blown up the 14th of March but i think we have to consider more and more seriously that this is the case...

Then, we have to consider the fact that very bad elements from MOX may have been rejected to the environement since this date...

 

[jlduh]

Sorry, i forgot to put the hyperlink for the source document, here it is (I edited the post to add it):

http://www.irsn.fr/FR/Actualites_pr...Seisme-Japon_Point-situation-24032011-08h.pdf

All the daily reports can be accessed from here:
http://www.irsn.fr/FR/Actualites_presse/Actualites/Pages/201103_situation_au_japon.aspx#1

The satellite annotated picture is at the end of the report.

I also put it below with my crude print screen capture on the pdf (sorry it's a little bit small, and my conversion of pdf to rtf document gave me a complete mess):

http://www.netimago.com/image_181630.html

 

[|Fred]

It is my understanding that IRSN's conclusion were based on NISA's 47th public information released Stating "Down Scale" for the RCV and the PCV pressure gauge .
As they stated that they concluded that lead them to conclude that corium had breach the RCV due to pressure readings, They further extrapolated that the smoke is due to the reaction ? between this corium and the concrete.

It is to be noted that the 48th NISA's does give figure for pressure un the RCV 107KPa and the PCV 199KPa

IRSN's seems to me so far inconsistent with the absence of increase of radioactivity due to there assumed Corium concrete Smoke .
As far as we know Smoke is under analysis, shat it contain new isotopes we should be able to validate or invalidate IRSN hypothesis

 

[havemercy]

Well, i believe that unfortunately, this is one more confirmation that the reactor 3 is in direct contact with the environnement, with a so low water temp (if the reading is confirmed to be true)... I would have liked to be wrong when thinking from the video analysis and other elements that the reactor n°3 had blown up the 14th of March but i think we have to consider more and more seriously that this is the case...

Then, we have to consider the fact that very bad elements from MOX may have been rejected to the environement since this date...

What are the other confirmation, please ?

 

[artax]

new video from engineers on the contractors who got exposed.



They are very poor with their use of units and seem to be stating 'absolute' units as in 170millisieverts, rather than the hourly rate of the water and the time they were in the water.
So it sounds like they don't really know the dose, or will just convert to units that sound reasonably close to the maximum.
Since this all began there's been a confusion over absolute dose and rate of dose.
These poor guys were young contractors!... anyone with the tiniest bit of nuclear knowledge would have been very carefull in there not to let water into their boots. POOR SODS!

 

[TCups]

can someone please explain what is producing this so called neutron ray that's been seen (sorry detected)? There was the mention of 1.5km, so I can only assume that it's been detected 1.5km distance from the plant, in a certain direction?

Artax:
I am not the best to answer, but I will give it a try, but I can only do so in a very basic way.

1) The elements in the core's fuel rods are neutron emitters. Neutrons, atomic mass 1, charge 0, are heavy but uncharged subatomic particles that come from the decay of U235 and Plutonium at high speed.

2) If the speed of the neutrons emitted are "moderated", slowed, as by water or graphite in a reactor core, then the the slowed ("thermal") neutron from one nucleus is more likely to hit or be captured by an adjacent nucleus, resulting in fission of the adjacent nucleus + energy + more neutrons.

3) If the emission of neutrons is sufficiently abundant, moderated to improve the chances of interaction with adjacent nuclei in the fuel, and the average "density" of the surrounding fissionable nuclei in the "fuel" - uranium, plutonium is sufficient, then a sustained nuclear reaction occurs and lots of heat is generated in the reactor core.

4) Boron among other substances, absorbs neutrons without undergoing fission, and therefor tends to slow the rate of emission of neutrons available for the chain reaction and controls the chain reaction. Control rods are neutron absorbers.

5) Unlike gamma radiation (very high energy photons, above the energy of the x-ray spectrum that penetrate all but the thickest shielding ), neutrons emitted from radioactive fuel are relatively easy to stop with shielding of moderate thickness. Even some plastics can do the job.

6) Detection of a "neutron beam" outside of the reactor would imply, I believe, elements in the nuclear fuel rods outside of the intact containment of the reactor vessel, or of the SFP, emitting "fast" neutrons (since they fuel was not surrounded by moderators) and therefore, potentially a much bigger problem.

7) It has not been confirmed that neutron radiation has been measured at the plant gates. In fact, one "reported" measurement of neutron radiation at or near the plant gates was a negative number (validity?). The point of measurement for the "neutron beam" was, in one source, reported to be at 1.5K from the site, and at a relatively low level, I believe.

 

[DrDu]

Sorry, i forgot to put the hyperlink for the source document, here it is (I edited the post to add it):

http://www.irsn.fr/FR/Actualites_pr...Seisme-Japon_Point-situation-24032011-08h.pdf

All the daily reports can be accessed from here:
http://www.irsn.fr/FR/Actualites_presse/Actualites/Pages/201103_situation_au_japon.aspx#1

According to the German society for reactor savety (GRS), the JAIP announced at 10 o' clock (the statement from France was at 8 o' clock) that the containment in Nr 3 is undamaged.
http://www.grs.de/sites/default/files/UE-STC-Stand_1100_240311_0.pdf

 

[Borek]

It's been a long, long time since I even thought about Ksp (?) - solubility constants in water. But do I remember correctly that CaCO₃ is less soluble in warm water than in cold?

Yes:

K<sub>sp[/sup] vs temperature in K

or

log_{10}(K_{sp}) = -1228.732-0.299440T+\frac{35512.75}T+485.818 log_{10}(T)</sub>

 

[jlduh]

What are the other confirmation, please ?

Well I should have written one more element that make us suspect that it is in direct contact with environment (let's be scientific ;o)).

Well i was thinking to the IRSN reports that is mentioned, the high readings around the reactor 3 (map) but also to my opinion the way this thing exploded the 14th of MArch.

I want to mention that some medias here question the integrity of this confinement since several days:

http://sciencepourvousetmoi.blogs.nouvelobs.com/archive/2011/03/23/fukushima-suite-16-uranium-et-transuraniens.html
http://sciencepourvousetmoi.blogs.n...-le-coeur-du-reacteur-n-3-est-il-a-l-air.html

but it 's not the vast majority (not a big title yet). The Lybian intervention focuses here a lot of the news...

It will be interesting to see how the IRSN reports with these new points are interpreted and translated into the medias here. But, independently to the fact that this option -reactor n°3 leaking since the explosion- proves to be true or not, i think that clearly this would be a tough news to release and explain to the public, especially in France because of the MOX/Areva stuff around this reactor...

 

[Borek]

Important smoke production has been observed. IRSN is evaluating the potential causes for confinement damages on reactor n°3. One hypothesis reviewed by IRSN is the possibility of the rupture of the reactor vessel followed by an interaction between the corium and the concrete at the bottom of the confinement well

That would mean very high levels of radioactivity being ejected, from my understanding so far these have been not reported.

 

[artax]

this site has some glaring omissions!

http://www.bousai.ne.jp/eng/index.html

Wonder what 'under survey' could mean, they're looking into it!

All over the page it boasts about why the site is there and the data collected... for nuclear safety, now... when the data actually means something it's covered up!

bloody ridiculous!
(oh cheers for that TCups!)

 

[TCups]

this site has some glaring omissions!

Wonder what 'under survey' could mean, they're looking into it!

All over the page it boasts about why the site is there and the data collected... for nuclear safety, now... when the data actually means something it's covered up!

bloody ridiculous!

Let's not be too critical of what is actually being done there, and what has been measured and reported. Remember that we are sitting safely in front of our computers, "speculating", not on site, in a very complicated and dynamic situation, trying to compile and report data accurately, in a section of a country that has been devastated by a quake and tsunami.

 

[|Fred]

DrDu, as I stated, French made some speculation base of some figure they read at 8, JAIP made some speculation of figure read at 11..

and I can give you the latest data even before they get published by NISA as the press conference just finished...

http://twitdoc.com/upload/sekizaiten/03242140no4.pdf

UNIT3 , temps @ nozzle are up at 65,6° / 155,7°
Pression in the RCV are 0.139MPa and 0MPa
Pression in the PCV is 0.107 MPa

this site has some glaring omissions!
bloody ridiculous!

the measurement are available else where but it's in Japanese

I want to mention that some medias here question the integrity of this confinement since several days:

What kind of credit can you give to someone who present IRSN speculation as hard evidence, and then base her own speculate on top of those dismissing very basic physics and availables data as she see fit ?

 

[|Fred]

Some pictures of the plant taken from the ground
http://www.meti.go.jp/press/20110324006/20110324006-5.pdf


Purely educated guess on my part: schematic Blue Print of the turbine block and location where the workers got contaminated
http://www.meti.go.jp/press/20110324006/20110324006-4.pdf

again educated guess: HPCP = High Pressure Condensate Pump

 

[83729780]

a couple of simple questions:

1) What is the likely concentration of boric acid in the coolant water?

2) What is the boiling point of brine + boric acid at said concentration?

 

[jlduh]

UNIT3 , temps @ nozzle are up at 65,6° / 155,7°
Pression in the RCV are 0.139MPa and 0MPa
Pression in the PCV is 0.107 MPa

For you, what would mean a ZERO Mpa reading for the RCV? If these are absolute values, then is the measurement unit damaged? If they are relative pressure readings, then this is atmospheric pressure. In GRS reports, they always talk about absolute readings... so i guess this is the case here?

The fact is that this reactor has for whatever reasons pressures which seem to be well below the other ones (I'm not talking about the ones who are in cold state). This is not in contradiction with the hypothesis of a failed confinement, even this doesn't prove either for sure that there is a failed confinement. Do you agree with this statement?

EDIT: the reactor 2 has readings for the reactor vessel of 0,065 Mpa on your japanese doc FRED, which is 0,065 x 1 000 000 = 65 000 Pascals, so less than one atmosphere of course. So either some of these readings are screwed up, either these are relative pressures.

For your remark FRED concerning the "nouvel obs" article, i give no real credit, I'm just saying that some medias ask the question here. On the other hand, it is nor abnormal that medias in France also base their article on what IRSN is saying and writting (which will be proving true or false) because this is the reference organisation in France for the follow up of this kind of accident.

 

[AntonL]

I think this estimates the equivalent exposure of thyroid gland due to Iodine-131 if one stayed outdoors continuesly from 12 to 24 March

 

[fusefiz]

| http://nnsa.energy.gov/mediaroom/pressreleases/fukushimadata

Press Release
U.S. Department of Energy Releases Radiation Monitoring Data from Fukushima Area
Mar 22, 2011

Today the U.S. Department of Energy released data recorded from its Aerial Monitoring System as well as ground detectors deployed along with its Consequence Management Response Teams. The information has also been shared with the government of Japan as part of the United States’ ongoing efforts to support Japan with the recovery and response effort.

On March 15, 33 experts from the Department’s National Nuclear Security Administration (NNSA) arrived in Japan along with more than 17,200 pounds of equipment. After initial deployments at U.S. consulates and military installations in Japan, these teams have utilized their unique skills, expertise and equipment to help assess, survey, monitor and sample areas for radiation. The 33 team members joined another six DOE personnel already in Japan.

Since arriving in Japan, NNSA teams have collected and analyzed data gathered from more than 40 hours of flights aboard Department of Defense aircraft and thousands of ground monitoring points.

That data has been collected, analyzed and posted on the Department’s website at www.energy.gov/japan2011. Consistent with the President’s commitment to share important information related to health and safety with the public, the Department will seek to update the data posted on its website daily.


[Go here to download slide presentation, MS powerpoint format]
| http://blog.energy.gov/content/situation-japan/

An image someone pulled from the slide presentation:
| http://forums.arbitraryconstant.com/images/fukushima-radiation.png

[Doesn't look like I managed to show this image inline ... follow the link, reload if necessary.]

All measurements were below 30 mRem/hr. The slide presentation says that the NRC estimates that the averge US resident receives 71 mRem/hr (from all sources combined, I presume).

 

[TCups]

Some pictures of the plant taken from the ground
http://www.meti.go.jp/press/20110324006/20110324006-5.pdf


Purely educated guess on my part: schematic Blue Print of the turbine block and location where the workers got contaminated
http://www.meti.go.jp/press/20110324006/20110324006-4.pdf

again educated guess: HPCP = High Pressure Condensate Pump

Fred: From the annotations that are in the English alphabet, that would be my guess, too - T/B = Turbine Bldg D/G = Diesel Generator, maybe. But the scale doesn't fit, unless it is only part of the building plan. The structure circled in the lower right of the floor plan, as usual, caught my eye. I was wondering if it might have something to do with the hole in the roof of Bldg 3. Probably not.

 

[TCups]

| http://nnsa.energy.gov/mediaroom/pressreleases/fukushimadata

Press Release
U.S. Department of Energy Releases Radiation Monitoring Data from Fukushima Area
Mar 22, 2011

Today the U.S. Department of Energy released data recorded from its Aerial Monitoring System as well as ground detectors deployed along with its Consequence Management Response Teams. The information has also been shared with the government of Japan as part of the United States’ ongoing efforts to support Japan with the recovery and response effort.

On March 15, 33 experts from the Department’s National Nuclear Security Administration (NNSA) arrived in Japan along with more than 17,200 pounds of equipment. After initial deployments at U.S. consulates and military installations in Japan, these teams have utilized their unique skills, expertise and equipment to help assess, survey, monitor and sample areas for radiation. The 33 team members joined another six DOE personnel already in Japan.

Since arriving in Japan, NNSA teams have collected and analyzed data gathered from more than 40 hours of flights aboard Department of Defense aircraft and thousands of ground monitoring points.

That data has been collected, analyzed and posted on the Department’s website at www.energy.gov/japan2011. Consistent with the President’s commitment to share important information related to health and safety with the public, the Department will seek to update the data posted on its website daily.


[Go here to download slide presentation, MS powerpoint format]
| http://blog.energy.gov/content/situation-japan/

An image someone pulled from the slide presentation:
| http://forums.arbitraryconstant.com/images/fukushima-radiation.png

[Doesn't look like I managed to show this image inline ... follow the link, reload if necessary.]

All measurements were below 30 mRem/hr. The slide presentation says that the NRC estimates that the averge US resident receives 71 mRem/hr (from all sources combined, I presume).

fuzefiz: May I help? Here are the two pertinent slide images you reference.

 

[|Fred]

...

Hint
the arrow on top of the drawing indicate "sea" 海 in japanse
so you got it the wrong way round

 

[timeasterday]

Fred: From the annotations that are in the English alphabet, that would be my guess, too - T/B = Turbine Bldg D/G = Diesel Generator, maybe. But the scale doesn't fit, unless it is only part of the building plan. The structure circled in the lower right of the floor plan, as usual, caught my eye. I was wondering if it might have something to do with the hole in the roof of Bldg 3. Probably not.

The orientation of the floorplan is reversed, I believe, in the overlay photo you attached. There's an arrow with the character for "sea" pointing up. I don't read Japanese but I do know quite a bit of Chinese and there are a lot of the same characters used.

 

[jlduh]

My instinct just tells me that the circle at the bottom of the drawing could represent the torus of the reactor n°3.

Some drawings also can confirm what my instinct tells me:

Typical BWR Mark I
http://www.netimago.com/image_181784.html

Oyster Creek reactor (US):
To help understand the scale of what we are talking about with these reactors, just consider the relative size of item n°32 on this sketch, which is the entrance gate for personnel and tools inside the containment vessel
http://www.netimago.com/image_181785.html
An other picture that give a good idea of the size of these litlle nuclear cookers:

http://www.netimago.com/image_181791.html

(I'm not sure if this represents the steel confinement or the concrete around it). On this picture, the round hole above the torus is maybe the gate of item 32 (it seems to be around 4,5 meters diameter based on the size of guy on the left side).

 

[TCups]

REGARDING UNIT 3

As referenced above from this document:
http://www.grs.de/sites/default/files/UE-STC-Stand_1100_240311_0.pdf

and quoting, in part, from page 10 of the document:

"From 11:03 h until 13:20 h on 23-03-2011, 35 t of sea water were pumped into the fuel pool of Unit 3 via the pool cooling and purification system.

At 16:20 h (23-03-2011), black smoke emanated from the reactor building of Unit 3. Subsequently, the surrounding premises of Units 3 and 4 were evacuated as a precau- tion. However, the measured values of the reactor pressure vessel and of the contain- ment as well as radiation measurements by the measuring probes in the direct vicinity of the plant showed no significant changes.

The smoke development seemed to cease on 24-03-2011 at around 4:50 h.
At 5:35 h, sea water injection into the fuel pool via the pool water and purification sys- tem was resumed.

According to JAIF (24-03-2011, 10:00 h), the containment is not damaged. Sea water injection into the reactor pressure vessel is being continued.

INES classification by the authority
The event in Unit 3 was classified by the authority on 18-03-2011 as INES 5."

Emphasis added is my own.

Does "containment is not damaged" refer to the reactor vessel and primary containment, or the reactor vessel only, or the primary (dry wall) containment only? I wish the statement had been more precise.

I can see only 2 sources of high level radiation contamination that might come from Unit 3 -- the reactor core or the spent fuel pool (or both). If either the RV or the RV and the primary containment are intact, then could vented steam from Unit 3 RV account for the high level contamination on the ground? If not, then it seems it must have come from the SFP.

Is there any other conclusion that would explain the highest measured levels contamination on the ground (if that is the appropriate term to use) other than it coming from either the core or SFP? Perhaps water leakage from the water sprayed on the building?

Is the most likely (even if speculative) conclusion that there has been both damage to and scattering of at least part of the fuel rod contents of the SFP at Unit 3? I cannot see any other.

 

[|Fred]

[PLAIN]http://i.min.us/imry38.jpg

D/G = Diesel Generator, in line with the diesel tank.. makes sens