Japan Earthquake: Nuclear Plants at Fukushima Daiichi

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The Fukushima Daiichi nuclear plant is facing significant challenges following the earthquake, with reports indicating that reactor pressure has reached dangerous levels, potentially 2.1 times capacity. TEPCO has lost control of pressure at a second unit, raising concerns about safety and management accountability. The reactor is currently off but continues to produce decay heat, necessitating cooling to prevent a meltdown. There are conflicting reports about an explosion, with indications that it may have originated from a buildup of hydrogen around the containment vessel. The situation remains serious, and TEPCO plans to flood the containment vessel with seawater as a cooling measure.
  • #12,691
SteveElbows said:
As we are on the subject of vent pipes, I shall repeat something I said on the reactor 2 thread not so long ago.

<snip>

btw thankyou for bringing up the hardened vent pipes in relation to the hydrogen transfer a few posts ago. I was stuck on just the one pathway of how the hydrogen had migrated as you can see.
 
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  • #12,692
NUCENG said:
<..>The third stack at Fukushima Daiichi is a shared stack foR the offgas treatment system over by the offgas building. The offgas stack takes processed effluent from turbine building air ejectors and gives it an elevated release point. If you look at the top of the offgas stack there appear to be four separate pipes at the top of the stack so it is possible that the release paths are actually separate from each plant.<..>.

Not that it relates to anything in particular, just to set that straight, now you mention it.

From photos it can be gleaned that the off-gas from unit 4 goes to the east pipe of the third (most southerly) stack, while the offgas from units 2 and 3 combine in something called the 'Exhaust building', from which the north tube is then fed. Unit 1 otoh does not have any obvious connection to any of the four tubes of the third stack.
For completion, the south tube of the third stack takes offgas from the Central radiation waste facility, and the west tube from the nearby 'Incinerator and machine building'.
 
  • #12,693
SteveElbows said:
<..>
http://www.tepco.co.jp/en/nu/fukushima-np/images/handouts_110802_01-e.pdf

Look closely and both the large duct pipe (grey) and the smaller pipe (white) for reactor 2 can be seen in that photo, heading away and to the right of the photographer, and then angling upwards. And the gamma blob which is to the right could be showing the source is material stuck in the smaller pipe.

I am not sure the resolution of the gamma camera is sufficient to judge whether the blob is coming from the unit 1 or the unit 2 smaller pipe, or for that matter from the bottom of the larger duct pipe. Interesting on review, that there is a small (blue) blob close to the ground under the larger blob. Apparently we are looking at something that has been, er, dripping.

I have attached the best frame I could find from a video showing the area. The angle to the interesting spot is somewhat different from that of the gamma photo, but close.
 

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  • #12,694
westfield said:
Yes it is an image from the 20th,... I.E. RB4's explosion didn't visibly do further damage to the RB 3's remnant of SGTS ducting. It's just one of the better images to show the state of that ducting.

The yellow arrows in the linked document are presumably pointing the "hardened vent" lines

SteveElbows said:
Look closely and both the large duct pipe (grey) and the smaller pipe (white) for reactor 2 can be seen in that photo, heading away and to the right of the photographer, and then angling upwards. And the gamma blob which is to the right could be showing the source is material stuck in the smaller pipe.

Many thanks to both of you, now it is much clearer. They vented through the hard vent line, the exhaust stack wasn't big enough to release all that pressure, and so it "backfired" into the buildings via the SGTS.
 
  • #12,695
MadderDoc said:
a small (blue) blob close to the ground under the larger blob. Apparently we are looking at something that has been, er, dripping.

Isn't it where the hard vent pipe connects to the stack?
 
  • #12,696
MadderDoc said:
I am not sure the resolution of the gamma camera is sufficient to judge whether the blob is coming from the unit 1 or the unit 2 smaller pipe, or for that matter from the bottom of the larger duct pipe. Interesting on review, that there is a small (blue) blob close to the ground under the larger blob. Apparently we are looking at something that has been, er, dripping.

I have attached the best frame I could find from a video showing the area. The angle to the interesting spot is somewhat different from that of the gamma photo, but close.

Thanks for the photo, very helpful as it originally took me quite a lot longer to figure out the orientation of the gamma and other photo in that document. So that should help others to understand the gamma photo orientation more quickly.

I agree that the single gamma camera image is not enough to decently support my hypothesis that the reactor 2 pipe is the location of the radiation source. We'd need another gamma image taken from a different angle to confirm it. The timing of my original speculation regarding this was simply down to the discussion about possible reactor 2 brief dry vent, which opened up this possibility for the first time and made me think of stuff that I don't remember discussing back when this highly radioactive stack detail was originally published.

Well spotted on the 'drip' gamma, I hadn't noticed that before.

duccio said:
Isn't it where the hard vent pipe connects to the stack?

No, since he is referring to a very thin blue line of gamma detection, not the other large gamma source on that photo. I think we are assuming that this blue line represented something that has fallen onto the ground or equipment below that point, which is a little way away front he stack itself.

The other large source looks to be in approximately the same location as is being monitored by a person with a pole in the first picture in that document, which is indeed at a point just before that pipe enters the stack like you suggest, and just below the point where the pipe from reactor 2 joins the pipe from reactor 1. Sometimes when I look at the picture it is tempting to look at how the discolouration of the pipe only begins once the reactor 2 pipe joins it, which I could use as weak supporting evidence for the idea that the stuff has come from reactor 2 rather than reactor 1.
 
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  • #12,697
SteveElbows said:
The other large source looks to be in approximately the same location as is being monitored by a person with a pole in the first picture in that document...
Be careful with those photos, the perspective is tricky, and that stack is HUGE.

I've attached a picture where I marked the supposed location of the gamma camera. The person with the stick is on the other side of the stack, the gamma cam can't see him or the position he pokes with that stick. Actually, we have no real picture about that source on the bottom of the stack which the gamma cam see.

The other source high in the air can be both on the small or the big pipe (I've underlined the small with green and 'overlined' the big with blue), but the position is clearly outside the base area of the stack tower.

So the small 'drip' will be outside that area too. And we have no real picture about that area too.
 

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  • #12,698
http://www.tepco.co.jp/nu/fukushima-np/images/handouts_120326_06-j.pdf unit 2 second endoscope mission. Accumulated water surface is estimated to be 60 cm above PCV bottom. Accumulated water temperature is 48.5°C~50°C. The water was transparent but deposits were found.

http://photo.tepco.co.jp/library/120326-01/120326_01.jpg top of water surface
http://photo.tepco.co.jp/library/120326-01/120326_02.jpg underwater
http://photo.tepco.co.jp/library/120326-01/120326_03.jpg electrical conduits and grating
 
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  • #12,699
Rive said:
Be careful with those photos, the perspective is tricky, and that stack is HUGE.

I've attached a picture where I marked the supposed location of the gamma camera. The person with the stick is on the other side of the stack, the gamma cam can't see him or the position he pokes with that stick. Actually, we have no real picture about that source on the bottom of the stack which the gamma cam see.

Yeah I know its on the other side, but I was under the impression that the gamma camera would see it, since the gamma rays would be picked up even though the stack was between the source and the camera?
 
  • #12,700
edit - oops I edited this post instead of quoting it. Lost what I said here originally, but it was something about water being 5 metres lower than they expected in January. Here is the new reply which should have been a new post...

Oops, make that about 4 metres below the level they expected in January.

60cm of water isn't a lot really is it? I presume they would be more comfortable if the water level was higher than that?

I note that the water level on the diagram is at approximately the same level as the point where the drywell connects to the suppression chamber, is this about right? Not that I would take this clue too far, since we are apparently talking about the very bottom of the drywell anyway, the water level cannot go too much lower than its shown to be, so long as the rate of water injection exceeds the rate at which its leaking out?

Tomorrow they will be measuring the radiation level inside containment. What sort of range of possible values would we expect?
 
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  • #12,701
SteveElbows said:
Yeah I know its on the other side, but I was under the impression that the gamma camera would see it, since the gamma rays would be picked up even though the stack was between the source and the camera?

Good point. Possible. I don't know.
 
  • #12,705
According to this article they had previously expected a water level of about 3 metres.

http://www3.nhk.or.jp/daily/english/20120326_34.html

Found an article about the previous mission in January, and it states that they initially expected a water level of 4.5 metres, and after that mission failed to find the water they revised it to 4 metres or lower.

http://ajw.asahi.com/article/0311disaster/fukushima/AJ201201190067
 
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  • #12,706
http://www3.nhk.or.jp/news/genpatsu-fukushima/20120326/2255_osensui.html There was a 120 ton leak of water decontaminated from cesium. 80 [liters] [1] are believed to have flowed to the ocean. This water contains strontium. Beta rays are 0.25 Bq/cm³.

SteveElbows said:
According to this article they had previously expected a water level of about 3 metres.

http://www3.nhk.or.jp/daily/english/20120326_34.html

Found an article about the previous mission in January, and it states that they initially expected a water level of 4.5 metres, and after that mission failed to find the water they revised it to 4 metres or lower.

http://ajw.asahi.com/article/0311disaster/fukushima/AJ201201190067

In January I had found the following piece of news:

tsutsuji said:
http://www.shimbun.denki.or.jp/news/main/20120120_04.html The endoscope was able to look down to the grating (PCV first floor) at OP 9.5 metre, so that the water level must be lower than this. As part of severe accident countermeasures, a water level gauge is installed at OP 8.3 m, which switches on when submerged, and this switched on signal is being received. For this reason, it is possible to estimate that the water level is between OP 8.3 and OP 9.5 m, but Tepco said : "the integrity of the water level gauge is unclear, so it is necessary to carefully evaluate that matter".

That water level switch must be broken.

[1] Edit "tons" was wrong. "liters" is correct. Thanks to Joffan. Sorry for the mistake.
 
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  • #12,707
tsutsuji said:
http://www3.nhk.or.jp/news/genpatsu-fukushima/20120326/2255_osensui.html There was a 120 ton leak of water decontaminated from cesium. 80 tons are believed to have flowed to the ocean. This water contains strontium. Beta rays are 0.25 Bq/cm³.
tsutsuji can you please check the units for the amount going to the ocean, Google translate has it as 80 liters.
 
  • #12,708
Is it safe to say that there may be only a minute amount of corium outside the Unit 2 reactor vessel?

There's only 60 cm of water, but it is not boiling.
 
  • #12,709
If you look on drywell drawings or models 60cm is equal to level where large pipes to suppression chamber are, so maybe suppression chamber is leaking ? It would be easier to damage suppression chamber (for example via hydrogen explosion) than big drywell walls.
But 60cm of water wouldn't cover corium enought and there would be big radiation, so maybe most of corium is still in RPV ?
 
  • #12,710
Yes there are certainly some interesting questions as a result of this stuff, but as I try to draw conclusions from it I struggle to find safe ones.

Yes the water could be draining into the suppression chamber that is then leaking to the torus room.

But various papers about drywell wall failure do tend to suggest that a possible failure point involves the area around the pipes that connect the drywell to the suppression chamber. If there is sufficient quantity of molten core, hitting the ground whilst at the right temperature, the corium can spread out, and eat through some of the drywell shell wall in an area that's near to the pipes to s/c. Material then blows down into the torus room from the drywell via the gap, it doesn't have to go via the pipes & suppression chamber.

So that's two different possibilities, and I have no particular evidence to favour one over the other, although I expect the core blowdown to torus room sounds like a wilder claim than a more basic suppression chamber leak. As someone mentioned its possible that not much core material is actually down at the drywell floor, which if true would certainly hugely reduce the possibility of drywall shell each-through and blowdown.

But I am not sure if todays info about the water level actually gives us much guide as to quantity of core in the drywell. If it spread out, or ate into concrete, then that would change the equation about how much water was needed to cover it.

And I am not sure what we learn from the temperature of the water either really. Doesn't it depend on how often the water is being replaced with completely new water at the bottom, i.e. how long it takes for 60cm worth of water to drain down to the torus room? And what temperature the water is just before it reaches the bottom of the drywell, which will be dependant on factors such as what core material it met and cooled as it journeyed from the reactor vessel downwards.
 
  • #12,711
The results of today's survey is no surprise to me. Apparently this kind of containment isn't able to do it's job in case of a core melt-down accident.

If I recall correctly, the weak spot of the MKI containment was supposed to be the joints between PCV and SC. So all the water poured into the RPV escapes rather quickly through either damaged joints or a damaged torus and ends up in the torus room. And perhaps some corium has already taken the same path one year ago.
But to get confirmation about the location of the corium, further investigations will be needed.

PS: Considering the deformed door to the torus room in unit 3, I would expect much more damage to the torus there.
 
  • #12,712
I found information that radiation in air was 6.1 Sv/h there, anyone know how big would be radiation from uncovered corium or from corium under 60cm of water ?
 
  • #12,713
Yamanote said:
The results of today's survey is no surprise to me. Apparently this kind of containment isn't able to do it's job in case of a core melt-down accident.

If I recall correctly, the weak spot of the MKI containment was supposed to be the joints between PCV and SC. So all the water poured into the RPV escapes rather quickly through either damaged joints or a damaged torus and ends up in the torus room. And perhaps some corium has already taken the same path one year ago.

Well speaking more broadly I think what Fukushima taught us is that containment doesn't actually do a job of containing everything, which is how it tended to be described in the past. Either temperature or pressure or both will cause it to fail under severe core melt conditions.

Rather, at least at these type of reactors & containment facilities, containment still contains a lot of stuff and keeps radiation levels down to the extent that people can at least work on site. But in the event of a core melt the containment will not keep everything inside.

If we discover that reactor 2 did release the majority of the substances that contaminated land, then I think the lesson here is one that was already known, that you have to release some of the nasties from containment via wet-venting. You release some substances but at least a lot of stuff is scrubbed or otherwise remains inside containment. Containment may then leak but at least a lot of the stuff that came out of the fuel at the height on the accident got scrubbed before release. But if you fail to wet-vent at all, like happened with reactor 2, then you risk these substances coming straight out from the drywell when it fails.

So on one level containment seems like a misnomer if you have to release stuff from containment via venting in an accident to save containment, what sort of containment is that? But in fact its much better to do that than not wet-vent at all.

And even the much discussed known flaws with containment due to heat or pressure have a silver lining. If we look at the worst fears over Fukushima, they involved the containment itself exploding or otherwise breaking in a rather dramatic way. But the sorts of leaks due to heat or pressure that seem likely to have occurred at Fukushima probably helped prevent this from happening. Not much consolation since a leaking containment vessel is still bad news for the environment, but I guess its not as bad as a more explosive loss of containment.

And no I don't think you can describe the MK-I containment weak spot as being the joints between S/C and D/W, simply because there are lots of weak spots and I don't think it would be fair to single one out in particular as being the weakest. All manner of seals etc will degrade at certain temperatures, as well as the containment cap, personnel & equipment access hatches and other pipework penetrations.
 
  • #12,714
elektrownik said:
I found information that radiation in air was 6.1 Sv/h there, anyone know how big would be radiation from uncovered corium or from corium under 60cm of water ?

Where did you find that? As far as I know they are doing this measurement on Tuesday.

Perhaps you've seen something based on CAMS drywell readings? Many of these readings have been described as potentially faulty by the company, so I will be glad to get a reading taken in a different way.
 
  • #12,716
Joffan said:
tsutsuji can you please check the units for the amount going to the ocean, Google translate has it as 80 liters.

The NHK says 120 tons leaked among which 80 liters flowed to the Ocean. Sorry for the mistake.
 
  • #12,717
elektrownik said:

Cheers, but no clue where he got that number from, and this is not a source I place too much weight on. Maybe its right but I will wait until official document is published about this.

Anyway since the discussion of the water level brings up discussion of the corium, I went back to remind myself of how they got the initial estimate that only a small amount of the core of reactor 2 fell down to the drywell, and that lots remains in the reactor vessel.

Its based on modelling using the following data:

Reactor water level gauge
Heat decrease of core over time
Amount of time that water was not injected into reactor after water level dropped
The temperature measured by RPV sensors after the disaster
How this temperature changed when injection amounts or methods changed

Reactor 1 always creates the most extreme estimates because of how long they failed to inject water, and to a lesser extent because it happened sooner after reactor shutdown. And higher temperatures of RPV vessels of reactors 2 & 3 make them think more fuel is in those RPVs.

They might be broadly correct or, as the incorrect water level estimates show, they may have got it wrong. I suppose we shouldn't be surprised if a lot of the fuel at reactors 2 and/or 3 turns out to still be in the RPV, since it isn't necessary to have a large core release to the drywell to explain the other things that went wrong or the large levels of radioactive release.

This is the sort of document I sued to remind myself of how they did the estimates. http://www.tepco.co.jp/en/nu/fukushima-np/images/handouts_111130_04-e.pdf
 
  • #12,718
OK I checked the data for reactor 2 and the 6.1 Sv/hr figure you found is indeed from drywell CAMS A, its not a new measurement done in a new way, and it was misleading of that site to throw it into the article as if it was data from Mondays investigation. But it will be interesting to see how it compares to the level they should measure on Tuesday as part of this investigation.

(CAMS data is part of the temperature data now released mostly in csv format http://www.tepco.co.jp/en/nu/fukushima-np/f1/images/2012parameter/csv_6h_data_2u-e.csv )
 

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