Are Laptops the Future of Textbooks in Education?

[Kerrie]

http://www.cnn.com/2005/EDUCATION/08/19/no.textbooks.ap/index.html

Now I really wish I was in school again! I remember lugging those huge books in my backpack and how much my back and shoulders would hurt. The article specifically states that those in support of laptops don't want to eliminate books, but this method helps link kids to more information in the web.

 

[cronxeh]

I don't think laptops really belong in the classroom, or that even a book belongs there. Books are for home studying, whereas in the classroom (especially in High School setting) you are 'broken in' for the first time and introduced to the new material. Any distraction will guarantee to have the student left with voids in knowledge. At HS level they should engange in problem based learning and by seeing the new material and talking about it and doing problems the students will learn more.

Besides I know darn well that the students who have laptops in class almost always use it for something else. There are aims going on, googling, watching anime and other distractions. If you go to a 40 minute class you better make damn sure you spend 99% of your time actually acquiaring new material. On average this percentage is about 80 - depending on the teacher, and with introduction of laptops this number will surely go down to 50.

Expect more of the D students from such recourse. Hey maybe the next President will be from Arizona

 

[Moonbear]

I don't know about that cronxeh. Here's what the article has to say on things like IM use.

Students get the materials over the school's wireless Internet network. The school has a central filtering system that limits what can be downloaded on campus. The system also controls chat room visits and instant messaging that might otherwise distract wired students.

Students can turn in homework online. A Web program checks against Internet sources for plagiarized material and against the work of other students, Baker said. "If you copy from your buddy, it's going to get caught," he said.

Sounds like it might crack down more on those who have previously gotten away with this stuff because they are more computer saavy than their peers.

Also interesting, but not surprising to me considering my experiences with college students is this:

One of the more surprising things, he said, was finding that students' proficiency at video games and e-mail hasn't always translated into other computer skills.

"One of the greatest challenges actually is getting the kids up to speed in using Word, in using an Internet browser for other than a simple global search," Gypton said.

I wonder if there's a way to set up the intranet at the school so that a monitor on the teacher's desk could show small windows of what each student has up on their computer? The obvious reason I ask is that it would allow the teacher to quickly see if the students are "passing notes" rather than doing their assignments, but it would also allow them to watch progress as students are working through an in-class assignment to see if they're all getting stuck at a certain step or something like that.

On the other hand, cronxeh, I also agree that one really shouldn't even have to lug their textbooks to class every day. Just bring your notebook and your full attention. Once in a while it is helpful to use books in-class (such as for reference when students are working through a lab assignment, or doing a group reading exercise), but most of the time, kids just lug the books around and never open them until it's time to do homework. It seems teachers could make it a lot easier on the students if they let them know that most days they can leave the book at home for studying and doing their homework and they'll let them know a day ahead if they should bring the book to class for something.

 

[dduardo]

1) Laptops don't belong in the classroom because they are a distraction. Kids are going to be playing on the laptop instead of listening to the teacher.

2) Textbooks don't belong in the classroom because teachers should be lecturing and using the blackboard. Students shouldn't be doing book work in class. That's what homework is for.

3) If they are trying to elminate printed textbooks they should allow kids to download the books in pdf format at home. The only place where students should be using textbooks is at home for further reference or homework assignments.

4) The only way I would get the books in pdf format is if they are considerably less than $50.00, which is approx what I pay for each of my textbooks through half.com in brand new condition.

 

[Smurf]

I intend to always use books when I go to Uni in september

 

[mattmns]

Hmm most of my classes had a class set of books if we needed them, while in K-12. I am not sure how it would be to use a computer for everything, sometimes it would seem nice, but personally I like the ultra freedom of pencil on paper.

edit... Also I would rather have a physical (paper) textbook instead of a file on my computer. Hmm, maybe both actually. I have to think about that one. I would definitely prefer a paper novel as opposed to reading one on a computer.

 

[Evo]

They can set up the laptops so that there are no games, no instant messaging, very restricted internet access, etc... They can even set them up within a school intranet and allow no access to the public internet. I think that might be the wisest solution. They can load the appropriate information that the students need to research on the intranet.

I think it's a good idea. I don't see completely doing away with books though, I see adding the computer as an enhancement, not a replacement.

 

[neurocomp2003]

but you can still msg using the internal msging system can't you? via windows msging.

 

[mattmns]

You can uninstall windows messanger, but the computers that these students are using (in the story) are apples (ibooks I think).

 

[Monique]

I rather have a piece of paper with information on it that I can make notes on and highlights, than a computer screen. Paper is easier to absorb information from, I always print pdf files.

 

[jcsd]

http://www.xerez.demon.co.uk/tv/CYBERMAN.JPG
"Today we learned about oxbow lakes"



It'll all end in tears I tell ya.

 

[Smurf]

They can set up the laptops so that there are no games,

They can be installed, or are these specially doctored computers which the students turn in at the end of the day or something? Mind as well just provide a screen and keyboard on everyone's desk that loads into a central computer hub. Much more secure and controllable. Plus it'll look way cooler.

no instant messaging,

Ha! You'll need to not include internet at all if you want any hope of being successfull at that.

very restricted internet access, etc... They can even set them up within a school intranet and allow no access to the public internet. I think that might be the wisest solution. They can load the appropriate information that the students need to research on the intranet.

Ah, so everything they need is pre-loaded into the intranet so the kids never need to learn how to do actual research. Clever.

I think it's a good idea. I don't see completely doing away with books though, I see adding the computer as an enhancement, not a replacement.

I see no usefulness at all in this. Certainly not worth the cost, I'd rather my tax dollars not be spent on children's toys. I'm glad Canada isn't doing this... yet.

 

[JamesU]

They can set up the laptops so that there are no games, no instant messaging, very restricted internet access, etc... They can even set them up within a school intranet and allow no access to the public internet. I think that might be the wisest solution. They can load the appropriate information that the students need to research on the intranet.

it's called hacking and its not that hard

I think it's a good idea. I don't see completely doing away with books though, I see adding the computer as an enhancement, not a replacement.

I agree

 

[Smurf]

You can uninstall windows messanger, but the computers that these students are using (in the story) are apples (ibooks I think).

Yeah, but you can't uninstall telnet. (except they're apples so they don't have that at all... they have some other equivalent)

 

[Smurf]

it's called hacking and its not that hard

Yeah. Adults these days seem to severely underestimate how knowledgeable the youth are becoming about Computers. If you give them all free computers they will be exploited in any way they can

(and believe me, they can.)

 

[dduardo]

Paper is easier to absorb information from, I always print pdf files.

That's exactly what I do. My professors provide pdf notes before class and I print them out. If there is anything additional or any clarifications I write it directly onto the notes during class. When I get home I stick the notes in a 3-ring binder and repeat the process. There is no need to carry books back and forth.

I find that giving students notes before class is very effective because I can read the notes beforehand, come to class with actual questions in mind, and absorb any additional material that the professor gives during class.

 

[Monique]

I find that giving students notes before class is very effective because I can read the notes beforehand, come to class with actual questions in mind, and absorb any additional material that the professor gives during class.

Exactly, the same with giving a printout of the powerpoint presentation. That way you can write extra notes on the slides and highlight the important ones. I'd never give a digital copy of a powerpoint presentation to a student, they'll mindlessly copy the files for their own presentations.

 

[Moonbear]

You can uninstall windows messanger, but the computers that these students are using (in the story) are apples (ibooks I think).

Yeah, they said iBooks. I'm not sure how they expect to stop the kids from installing stuff on them though. You can set an administrator password on them that is required for installation of any new software, but I've found ways around those myself (the IT guy who set up the computers in the lab I'm about to leave left and never told anyone what the administrator passwords were).

I too have always preferred written notes. I like to add diagrams and arrows to connect thoughts too, so it's not just a matter of typing instead of writing. I just don't think the kids are going to learn very well if they're looking at a computer screen instead of the teacher.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

I do the same thing. In fact, one thing that I struggle with here at PF is missing information from posts, or even entire posts. Sometimes I just miss things; its almost like there's a blind spot getting me. But this never happens with paper. I always print out long programs to debug serious problems. Its a real pain to print out, but in addition to the fact that I miss things on the screen, the ability to make notes and such is very helpful.

 

[Moonbear]

Exactly, the same with giving a printout of the powerpoint presentation. That way you can write extra notes on the slides and highlight the important ones. I'd never give a digital copy of a powerpoint presentation to a student, they'll mindlessly copy the files for their own presentations.

This works well with graduate students, okay for some undergraduates, but terribly with high school students. Graduate students know the importance of writing their own notes and realize they are only being provided an outline to save them some time in their note-taking, some undergrads have learned that too, but most just think everything they need is on the handout and don't write anything more if you provide copies (someone told me they had provided notes with fill-in-the-blank spaces with information they revealed during the lecture, and actually had someone come up after the class and ask for a copy of the filled-in version...they hadn't written anything down themselves!). For high school students, this is a complete disaster. If you give them a handout, not only do they expect it to be a complete set of notes and not write anything, but they don't necessarily pay attention to the lecture either. You have to keep in mind the level of the student when deciding what to provide them in notes and what to expect them to write for themselves.

 

[loseyourname]

I've never even seen the point in taking notes, personally. If I'm writing things down, I just end up missing what is being said. On the other hand, if I just listen attentively, engage in class discussion, and complete the readings, I seem to remember everything I need to remember perfectly fine.

 

[Evo]

Ah, so everything they need is pre-loaded into the intranet so the kids never need to learn how to do actual research.

Finding information on an intranet can be more difficult than finding it on the internet.

 

[Evo]

I've never even seen the point in taking notes, personally. If I'm writing things down, I just end up missing what is being said. On the other hand, if I just listen attentively, engage in class discussion, and complete the readings, I seem to remember everything I need to remember perfectly fine.

I'm the same way, I don't take notes. It does tend to bug people that have no memory.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

I've never even seen the point in taking notes, personally. If I'm writing things down, I just end up missing what is being said. On the other hand, if I just listen attentively, engage in class discussion, and complete the readings, I seem to remember everything I need to remember perfectly fine.

That works for some people, but I've also seen people crash and burn for the same reason; esp where information is covered that's not in the textbook. In physics, I don't see how anyone can remember five chalkboards full of complex equations.

 

[Evo]

In physics, I don't see how anyone can remember five chalkboards full of complex equations.

That's when a camera phone becomes handy.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

That's when a camera phone becomes handy.

Of course, when you and I were in school, the best we could manage is Polaroid Swinger shot.

Mmmmmm, I can still smell the emulsion.

 

[loseyourname]

That works for some people, but I've also seen people crash and burn for the same reason; esp where information is covered that's not in the textbook. In physics, I don't see how anyone can remember five chalkboards full of complex equations.

The thing is, nothing is ever covered in class that isn't written down somewhere, even if not in your textbook. You aren't deriving new theorems in class, at least not any class I've ever been in. The only class I ever had the slightest problem in was organic chemistry, largely because the text sucked and we did cover a lot that wasn't in it. Even so, I managed to get the relevant information I couldn't remember somewhere, without having to distract myself by constantly jotting everything down. To be honest, I usually don't even bother showing up to lecture classes. Most of the time, I only attend discussions, seminars, and workshops.

That said, it's a different case when math is being done is class. Then I'll work along, as the point in that is to practice.

 

[Kerrie]

i think one of the biggest benefits of having a laptop to store information over a textbook is not having to lug around the weight of a book. in high school, i remember having 4 thick books to carry home and i had some strains in my shoulders, neck and back at 16! i like monique's idea of just printing out the material needed say for that week and read it on paper so you aren't missing it on a screen like some people tend to do.

computers can certainly be controlled so that chatting and instant messaging is under control, that is what they do at the public library where i live now.

 

[Smurf]

Finding information on an intranet can be more difficult than finding it on the internet.

"Difficulty" is irrelevant. It's not research if it's all there, they know it's all there and they don't have to go anywhere else to get any of it.

 

[Smurf]

computers can certainly be controlled so that chatting and instant messaging is under control, that is what they do at the public library where i live now.

Yeah, that's what they try to do at my public library too, you just havn't figured out the holes yet. Believe me, the youth probably have.

 

[heman]

They can set up the laptops so that there are no games, no instant messaging, very restricted internet access, etc... They can even set them up within a school intranet and allow no access to the public internet. I think that might be the wisest solution. They can load the appropriate information that the students need to research on the intranet.

I think it's a good idea. I don't see completely doing away with books though, I see adding the computer as an enhancement, not a replacement.

Evo,that seems to me best.!
Its the only way Laptops can come up as strength.They can increase the power to compute,enhance learning this way well!

 

[Kerrie]

Yeah, that's what they try to do at my public library too, you just havn't figured out the holes yet. Believe me, the youth probably have.

all the more to hire IT personnel or college students for school credit in schools to monitor this.

 

[Smurf]

Ah, so now we're giving everyone a lap top AND hiring people to make sure they use them properly because we can't be bothered to teach the staff to lecture properly.

 

[moose]

This reminds me of someone I know who always whines about how the school district doesn't give their school enough money for smart boards and such. Although its a good utility, it is seriously not needed for good teaching. A good teacher will be able to teach you with nothing more than words if it's all that is available.

 

[Kerrie]

Ah, so now we're giving everyone a lap top AND hiring people to make sure they use them properly because we can't be bothered to teach the staff to lecture properly.

Yes, it's called progression, you might want to keep up with it, or find yourself complaining a lot.

 

[Smurf]

Yes, it's called progression, you might want to keep up with it, or find yourself complaining a lot.

Yes. I suppose I should try harder to catch up on the times. Which half of my brain is it I need to remove?

 

[Moonbear]

Yes, it's called progression, you might want to keep up with it, or find yourself complaining a lot.

Well, it might turn out costly for that one school district, but I think it's something that has to be tried to find out if it will work before a lot of other schools adopt the policy.

One thing that occurred to me though is your comment about back strain from carrying the textbooks, Kerrie. At first, that sounded sensible. I know I had a lot of headaches from neck strain when still in school, and it still returns if I have a lot of stuff I'm carrying back and forth to the office. However, as I've let the thought settle a bit and mulled it over more, I'm wondering if we'll just be substituting one ailment for another. Instead of back strain, will the kids be more susceptible to repetitive stress injuries and eyestrain? Since they're all using laptops, and laptop keyboards are considered the worst kind of keyboard for repetitive stress injuries due to their flat layout and cramped keys that can affect both the hands/wrists, and your shoulders/neck from being hunched as you type, along with the fact that you can't adjust the height of the monitor either.

Will they also remember to teach them to look up from the monitor from time to time to avoid eye strain?

 

[Smurf]

Pffft, nonsense. They'll build up an immunity after 10 or so years, just like I did.

 

[Evo]

One thing that occurred to me though is your comment about back strain from carrying the textbooks, Kerrie. At first, that sounded sensible. I know I had a lot of headaches from neck strain when still in school, and it still returns if I have a lot of stuff I'm carrying back and forth to the office. However, as I've let the thought settle a bit and mulled it over more, I'm wondering if we'll just be substituting one ailment for another. Instead of back strain, will the kids be more susceptible to repetitive stress injuries and eyestrain? Since they're all using laptops, and laptop keyboards are considered the worst kind of keyboard for repetitive stress injuries due to their flat layout and cramped keys that can affect both the hands/wrists, and your shoulders/neck from being hunched as you type, along with the fact that you can't adjust the height of the monitor either.

Will they also remember to teach them to look up from the monitor from time to time to avoid eye strain?

Businesses that give their employees laptops give them external keyboards and monitors to prevent problems. If the kids are expected to be on the laptops all day, they will also need to furnish these.

 

[Smurf]

okay, shopping list so far:

Laptop per student
External keyboard per student
external monitor per student
wireless connection for each laptop connected to central intranet with possible internet access
IT guy to monitor intranet and student laptops to prevent unauthorized use

Okay, what's next? I think we should give them all free tap dancing lessons too!

 

[Evo]

okay, shopping list so far:

Laptop per student
External keyboard per student
external monitor per student
wireless connection for each laptop connected to central intranet with possible internet access
IT guy to monitor intranet and student laptops to prevent unauthorized use

Okay, what's next? I think we should give them all free tap dancing lessons too!

If Smurf headed the school board, kids would still be writing on clay tablets and using an abacus.

I guess one concern would be how they will adjust to college after having been taught this way.

It would have been smarter to have desktop computers and the kid could just log on in on the desk top in the next class he attends, accessing his information, there is no need for laptops.

 

[Smurf]

If Smurf headed the school board, kids would still be writing on clay tablets and using an abacus.

If I headed the schoolboard... :!)

Yeah, that's not something most of you would agree with me on, methinks.

 

[Kerrie]

Well, it might turn out costly for that one school district, but I think it's something that has to be tried to find out if it will work before a lot of other schools adopt the policy.

One thing that occurred to me though is your comment about back strain from carrying the textbooks, Kerrie. At first, that sounded sensible. I know I had a lot of headaches from neck strain when still in school, and it still returns if I have a lot of stuff I'm carrying back and forth to the office. However, as I've let the thought settle a bit and mulled it over more, I'm wondering if we'll just be substituting one ailment for another. Instead of back strain, will the kids be more susceptible to repetitive stress injuries and eyestrain? Since they're all using laptops, and laptop keyboards are considered the worst kind of keyboard for repetitive stress injuries due to their flat layout and cramped keys that can affect both the hands/wrists, and your shoulders/neck from being hunched as you type, along with the fact that you can't adjust the height of the monitor either.

Will they also remember to teach them to look up from the monitor from time to time to avoid eye strain?

good point, but eyestrain has been around long before laptops. i think the main objective of using laptops instead of textbooks is costs of the books (they are very expensive and add up when you have 5+ classes for every year) and the simple fact you can condense information onto a little chip or CD. if it was a guaranteed fact that each student had a desktop at home, CD's would certainly be the way to go. the laptops also are loaded with word processing programs for students to type reports for example instead of having to go to a library and use a clunky typewriter.

it's inevitable though, within several years, i wouldn't be surprised if textbooks are obsoleted and replaced with technology in one form or another.

 

[Moonbear]

good point, but eyestrain has been around long before laptops. i think the main objective of using laptops instead of textbooks is costs of the books (they are very expensive and add up when you have 5+ classes for every year) and the simple fact you can condense information onto a little chip or CD. if it was a guaranteed fact that each student had a desktop at home, CD's would certainly be the way to go. the laptops also are loaded with word processing programs for students to type reports for example instead of having to go to a library and use a clunky typewriter.

it's inevitable though, within several years, i wouldn't be surprised if textbooks are obsoleted and replaced with technology in one form or another.

I guess that will depend on the wear and tear and replacement costs. It's bad enough when a kid loses a book somewhere and has to pay to replace it, but what happens when it's a laptop computer they lose? Or they don't lose it but drop it? Or get caught out in the rain walking to school or waiting for the school bus? If you have to provide the kids with laptops, it's going to get expensive continually replacing them, plus software upgrades, etc. I don't know that cost is really going to be reduced. I think it's more that the world is moving more and more toward a paperless society and kids need to be comfortable working on computers if they want to be able to get a job after they graduate nowadays. As the article mentioned, and I cited the quote earlier, even though these kids are growing up on computer games, they still haven't learned the practical uses of computers, and that's a skill our schools need to be including now.

I'm not overly worried about them passing notes via IM and stuff like that. Afterall, we passed notes when I was a kid too. A good teacher can detect when students aren't paying attention by asking questions and noticing if they are writing/typing at times when nothing is being said that they should need to write, and there's always the telltale giggle of someone who can't suppress their laughter at something passed along in a note. So, now they'll be doing it via IM instead of by passing notes along when the teacher's back is turned. They'll always find a way. And an attentive teacher is going to walk around the room from time to time to know if they are doing anything else they shouldn't be doing instead of paying attention. But, in the end, you could be sitting there quietly doing nothing distracting and still not be paying any attention and just staring into space.

I do hope they continue to include assignments that remind them that there are bound paper books still in the library that contain information you cannot find online. This is a problem I'm seeing with grad students already. If it was published prior to 1966 and doesn't come up on a PubMed search, as far as they are concerned, it never existed. They need to be learning not just what they can do with technology, but what its limitations are as well.

 

[Kerrie]

costs in keeping textbooks up to date are expensive too. not sure how long textbooks remain in circulation, but printing is VERY expensive, i remember working at a printing company for nearly 5 years, and it amazing how much it costs to run a press and pay the person to run that press.

remember when computers cost over $2000? that was only 10 years ago, even less. now the costs of technology are coming down dramatically, especially if the laptops are bought in bulk.

i don't believe our education system will replace books altogether, there is a certain amount of relaxation to reading a book, and i am sure teachers will include reading those classics as assignments for a long time. the laptop is just a different tool to funnel the same information essentially.

 

[Moonbear]

costs in keeping textbooks up to date are expensive too. not sure how long textbooks remain in circulation, but printing is VERY expensive, i remember working at a printing company for nearly 5 years, and it amazing how much it costs to run a press and pay the person to run that press.

It'll probably wind up about the same. I just don't think it's really going to be a cost-saving measure is all.

i don't believe our education system will replace books altogether, there is a certain amount of relaxation to reading a book, and i am sure teachers will include reading those classics as assignments for a long time. the laptop is just a different tool to funnel the same information essentially.

I hope that will be true. I think this idea of using the two medias to complement each other in student instruction is the best approach.

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

When I posted a thread in Politics on the new scheme CA was trying to pass of shortening textbooks and replacing content with internet sites where information can be obtained Kat brought this up. Apparently they are already doing this in her state, I think she said New Hampshire and she said her kids are doing quite well with it. The problem is with places like here in CA. There are so many schools that are behind and densely packed with kids from low income families. What happens if you can't afford a laptop, a computer at home, internet access at home? You just get screwed?

 

[Evo]

When I posted a thread in Politics on the new scheme CA was trying to pass of shortening textbooks and replacing content with internet sites where information can be obtained Kat brought this up. Apparently they are already doing this in her state, I think she said New Hampshire and she said her kids are doing quite well with it. The problem is with places like here in CA. There are so many schools that are behind and densely packed with kids from low income families. What happens if you can't afford a laptop, a computer at home, internet access at home? You just get screwed?

Kids that don't have internet access outside of school are at a disadvantage when compared to those that do. Kids that can access information freely, will always have an advantage. One of the reasons when I was growing up that having an up to date set of encyclopedias at home was important, it gave you an edge, (if you read a lot).

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

Kids that don't have internet access outside of school are at a disadvantage when compared to those that do. Kids that can access information freely, will always have an advantage. One of the reasons when I was growing up that having an up to date set of encyclopedias at home was important, it gave you an edge, (if you read a lot).

I came from a relatively low income family. I used old encyclopedias and the library when I was in school.
With this in mind as being a disadvantage already then we should be careful not to make it even more of one by making kids get their classroom content through the internet. Not only will they not have the information available to other kids who have internet access but they won't even have access to the content they are expected to for the class itself unless they have lab time at school.

 

[Smurf]

What happens if you can't afford a laptop, a computer at home, internet access at home? You just get screwed?

You go to the computer lab after school. You go to the local library. What you DON'T do is give every kid a free lap top because they can't be bothered to cope with the slight advantage other kids have of being able to eat when using a computer. Does anyone else see this as plain stupidity? It's like in Iraq, vehicles keep getting blown up, so you damn yanks just say "Well, let's put more armor on it, that should work". So now you're vehicles are twice as heavy, consuming 30% more fuel, have a 20% lower max speed, 20% slower acceleration and the RPG-7 still blows them up because it can punch through 500mm of steel at long range and 2-3 times that at the low ranges it is usually fired at. All because you guys couldn't be bothered to train soldiers to accompany tanks on foot, always been the single biggest danger to an RPG gunner.

HOW ARE YOU STILL A SUPERPOWER!??! :shy: