Laurence Krauss accused of sexual harassment

[BWV]

Looks like a real pattern of abuse

https://www.buzzfeed.com/peteraldho...nt-allegations?utm_term=.evXvede3W#.ikYy5N5p7

 

[phinds]

Well nuts. Another "good guy" who can't keep in in his pants. He should be banned from more than just the couple of campuses that have banned him.

 

[DennisN]

That story made me really disappointed, I liked him as a science informer. Krauss, you should be telescoping, not telegroping.

 

[rootone]

Meh, So he got a bit flirty, he didn't rape anyone,
Feynman and Einstein also had such comments made about them.
Are nerds supposed to totally asexual?

 

[phinds]

Meh, So he got a bit flirty, he didn't rape anyone,

That is genuinely disgusting and repulsive.

 

[Greg Bernhardt]

Meh, So he got a bit flirty, he didn't rape anyone,

Did you read the article? Sure sounds like attempted rape. Sexual harassment at min.

 

[rootone]

It would be if he did rape someone, but as far as I know all that happened is that he said some person was wearing an attractive dress.

 

[Greg Bernhardt]

It would be if he did rape someone, but as far as I know all that happened is that he said some person was wearing an attractive dress.

What article did you read? The incident is clearly described in the first several paragraphs.

 

[rootone]

I had better get more information, and I am not a Krauss acolyte.
The story does look at first glance like opportunistic litigation though.

 

[Greg Bernhardt]

The story does look at first glance like opportunistic litigation though.

Laurence Krauss of course denied the allegations and many others over the years and we believe in innocent until proven guilty, but I am curious because you bring "opportunity". What is the opportunity? What does the woman gain?

 

[rootone]

Fame. That is very important to some.

 

[Greg Bernhardt]

Fame. That is very important to some.

I can only speculate, but to be "famous" for being known as the women who got sexually harassed by a relatively unknown scientist (to the general public) doesn't pass the smell test. You go bigger than that. Not to mention the shame and embarrassment one must feel coming out with it. Who wants to be known as someone who got abused?

 

[bhobba]

Meh, So he got a bit flirty, he didn't rape anyone, Feynman and Einstein also had such comments made about them. Are nerds supposed to totally asexual?

That was not flirty - it was close to rape:
Suddenly, he lifted her by the arms and pushed her onto the bed beneath him, forcibly kissing her and trying to pull down the crotch of her tights. Hensley said she struggled to push him off. When he pulled out a condom, Hensley said, she got out from under him, said “I have to go,” and rushed out of the room.

He assaulted her - obviously illegal.

Feynman used to do things like not buy women drinks or respond to their overtures for attention - it's detailed in his book - Surely You Are Joking Mr Feynman. All perfectly legitimate, if not what I would call polite, ways to treat people. This was to upset the plan they had of getting men to buy them drinks etc and be nice to them which was the usual rules of the 'game'. He was told by a barman that hardly ever actually works if your goal is to get intimate. It's not sexual harassment - although I would not do it.

In his younger days Einstein had women throwing themselves at him, he did not have to resort to 'tricks'. As he aged Einstein was more forthright - he would invite women over - open the door in his dressing gown and at the appropriate time let it slip off. If they responded - well good - if they didn't - there were more fish in the sea. Again not what I would do. That may have in fact skirted illegality - I do not know enough about the law - but was not assault.

Harvey Wiensten had a woman he groped, which again is assault and obviously illegal, wired up to catch him in the act. She complained about groping her - he never admitted it, instead kept inviting her into his room to discuss it. That too was pretty yucky - I again would not do it - but inviting a woman to your room to discuss things is not illegal even though in this context is rather 'off' - and when the tape was played everyone that heard it was - well disgusted for want of a better word. They got him on other stuff though.

We have to differentiate impolite/off behavior from things like groping, molestation etc that are, obviously and correctly illegal. There is a grey area in the middle like what Einstein did I am not sure about the legality of - I will let lawyers worry about that one. But simple impolite/off behavior like what Feynman did is within the bounds of a free society.

Thanks
Bill

 

[jedishrfu]

No one wins when these cases become public.

I find it hard to believe a woman would risk so much for the pain and suffering that she will endure from public scrutiny forever if something serious didn’t in fact happen to her.

I’m sure you find an exception to this rule but in the vast majority of these cases I’m sure the women are speaking the truth and that the only reason the perpetrator gets away is lack of compelling evidence.

 

[bhobba]

Who wants to be known as someone who got abused?

On some occasions women have been caught out doing just that - but it's rare - and the public ridicule they endured would indeed make others think twice. A simple google search will bring up examples. What we must watch out for though, is while these crimes are particularly disgusting and heinous, we do not overreact and throw out the normal rules of evidence etc - that would be the wrong, although entirely understandable, way to go.

Thanks
Bill

 

[strangerep]

I've been uneasy about LK ever since a certain episode of "Adam Hills Tonight" (an Australian "tonight" comedy/talk show). Among the guests were LK, and Kitty Flanagan, a much-loved Australian comedienne. During the show LK seemed to be trying to get "friendlier" and "friendlier" with Kitty. At the start it seemed harmless enough, but as the show progressed Kitty started reflexively leaning away from LK whenever he leaned over towards her.

I thought LK was being a bit icky, beyond the boundaries of humour.

 

[strangerep]

As he aged Einstein was more forthright - he would invite women over - open the door in his dressing gown and at the appropriate time let it slip off.

Oh, YUCK. I did not know that.

Pardon me while I get a bucket...

 

[Fervent Freyja]

Meh, So he got a bit flirty, he didn't rape anyone,
Feynman and Einstein also had such comments made about them.
Are nerds supposed to totally asexual?

The point is that he was abusing his position of authority over those women. Did he ever do this to a woman with more social credibility than himself?

I would hurt his feelings.

 

[bhobba]

Oh, YUCK. I did not know that. Pardon me while I get a bucket...

I have read a number of Einstein Biographies etc. My latest is Einsteins Mistakes. It points out at his summer home in Caputh a virtual harem of women visited him there. He lectured for a while at Cambridge where women would not leave him alone - a rather strikingly good looking society women was particularly smitten. He had an open marriage with his second wife, openly discussing his 'conquests'. He had a torrid affair with a Russian spy who tried to get secrets from him, but found he knew nothing so unceremoniously dropped him. It caught the attention of that sexual deviant, J Edgar Hoover, who thought Einstein a communist and basically hated his guts. It was of course untrue - Einstein was not a communist - but they were the days of McCarthyism.

Then in the early 1980s, Elsa's daughter, Margot, gave almost 1,400 letters to Hebrew University, which Einstein helped found. But Margot directed that the letters not be released publicly until 20 years after her death. She died on July 8, 1986. They make very interesting reading indeed.

That he was human doesn't really worry me, even the yucky behavior I mentioned. He kept it, as far as I can see, within the bounds of of what is allowed in a free society. Modern 'perpetrators' actually seem to believe assault is OK - that's what worries me. It seems to have been going on a while but not in the public eye - its now changing. There will be a backlash - it may be happening now. Like all backlashes there is a chance it will go too far, but then hopefully settle into something compatible with the human rights we all have. You will never stop men chasing women, or even on occasion women chasing men, but there will be a much better understanding of acceptable bounds. What that is I do not know - but it does not include assault.

Thanks
Bill

 

[bhobba]

The point is that he was abusing his position of authority over those women. Did he ever do this to a woman with more social credibility than himself? I would hurt his feelings.

I think anyone that is assaulted has the right to hurt more than the assaulter's feelings. The human body has a number of points of vulnerability - I will name one that is very well known - the carotid sinus - but many others exist. I think anyone worried about physical attack needs to go to some self defense lessons and learn them. Believe it or not Tai Chi when taught properly by a person that teaches it as a martial art does just that. Plus it has many other benefits such as relaxation etc. Yes I have learned it. Its primary defensive technique is run away to live and fight another day - it's all a set-up to get out of there as fast as you can.

Thanks
Bill

 

[jedishrfu]

The weakness though is that it takes a long time to really use Tai Chi effectively as a martial arts. You need to be prepared for counter moves especially.

Most teachers don’t know the martial aspects of it. Most don’t teach or even know push hands or the more complex trapping with hands and legs.

I’ve taken it for many years now and in an assault would more likely fall back on karate techniques than Tai Chi techniques if things went south.

 

[Greg Bernhardt]

I think anyone worried about physical attack needs to go to some self defense lessons and learn them.

I think it a shows how much of a sad state our society is when the solution we give women is to learn how to fight. Let's just stop acting like total creeps.

 

[bhobba]

I think it's a shows how much of a sad state our society is when the solution we give women is to learn how to fight. Let's just stop acting like total creeps.

Absofrgenlutely. How we got into this mess is turning a blind eye - we can no longer afford to do that.

Thanks
Bill

 

[HAYAO]

I think it's a shows how much of a sad state our society is when the solution we give women is to learn how to fight. Let's just stop acting like total creeps.

Large majority of the population are benign people. There are just always very few exceptions out there that even we ourselves despise as a man. Unfortunately, there is no country in this world where crime does not happen. who will always seek new and better things for science, I know I am supposed to say more than just "we can't do anything more than that", but I don't think we have a lot of practical options left.

 

[bhobba]

The weakness though is that it takes a long time to really use Tai Chi effectively as a martial arts. You need to be prepared for counter moves especially. Most teachers don’t know the martial aspects of it. Most don’t teach or even know push hands or the more complex trapping with hands and legs. I’ve taken it for many years now and in an assault would more likely fall back on karate techniques than Tai Chi techniques if things went south.

Sad but true. And those that like me that do push hands rarely go onto full sparing. Fortunately we all began push hands after we had done just half the form.

That said, if you have a good teacher he will teach you some techniques I will not mention because they are dangerous like the carotid sinus strike that can be used until you are more proficient. It's big advantage of course is you are taught both defense and attack as well as deflecting. That gives you the best change to get away quick:
http://hinessight.blogs.com/hinessight/2012/02/best-self-defense-technique-run-away.html

Another quick to learn Martial Art good for protection is Krav Maga. It's disadvantage is it is genuinely dangerous and does not have the relaxation and other advantages of Tai Chi. But a Krav Maga guy I used to know after watching our Tai Chi class many moons ago said immediately you can see the martial applications in the forms. Doing it slow looks funny but the idea is it becomes muscle memory so you react unconsciously when in trouble. He plainly said he could not touch my teacher - but then again my teacher would only spar with him - as you would have guessed he is dead against actual fighting. The story he tells is a very good martial artist he knew had ticked off someone at a bar. As he left the person he ticked off simply walked out with him, pulled a switch blade knife, and opened the spring next to him. Nothing he could do doesn't matter how good you are. His attacker ran and his friend went to emergency.

Just as an aside - that's the trick to grab the rubber or whatever is used from someones hand before they close it. In Tai Chi you learn Chi Gung - forget this Chi rubbish they tell you about - it does not exist - what does exist, and they have measured it, is you are in an alpha state during deep Chi Gung. You try and replicate that state when grabbing the stone. The person closing their hand has to think while you, being in an alpha state, just react. It works, I have taught it to others who didn't believe me and were surprised they could do it too.

Thanks
Bill

 

[HAYAO]

Sad but true. And those that like me that do push hands rarely go onto full sparing. Fortunately we all began push hands after we had done just half the form.

That said, if you have a good teacher he will teach you some techniques I will not mention because they are dangerous like the carotid sinus strike that can be used until you are more proficient. It's big advantage of course is you are taught both defense and attack as well as deflecting. That gives you the best change to get away quick:
http://hinessight.blogs.com/hinessight/2012/02/best-self-defense-technique-run-away.html

Thanks
Bill

Honestly speaking, most of these self-defense things aren't as effective for "the weak". Creeps generally do not target physically larger people, and size difference matter significantly in fights. I have done mixed martial arts, kickboxing, and boxing, but being 5"4 small man, it is very hard to win against larger opponents who are most likely over 5"8 in Japan and well over that in western countries.

Brazilian Jiu-jitsu is a better option if the opponent knows no ground game (this is the reason why Royce Gracie was initially very successful in UFC). Many time will a creep try to put a woman to the ground, but BJJ can be used effectively both when you are on the bottom or on the top. Choke techniques prevents breaking bones or any sort of significant damage as long as you don't choke them for too long, and grants you enough time for you to escape after they are out. Still, it does not guarantee you anything...which is sad.

 

[jedishrfu]

Let’s not sidetrack this thread with more martial arts talk and stay focused on the behavior of men who behave badly toward women.

 

[BWV]

Anyway the issue is not whether LK’s creepiness crosses the line into criminal assault where physical self defense might be required, the issue is that he abused his professional position, harassing women aspiring to become either physicists or involved with the skeptic movement.

 

[bhobba]

Anyway the issue is not whether LK’s creepiness crosses the line into criminal assault where physical self defense might be required, the issue is that he abused his professional position, harassing women aspiring to become either physicists or involved with the skeptic movement.

Yes and no - is it an abuse of power just asking someone like that out on a date? Assault - absolutely - but where does it stop. I simply do not know. I remember I had this absolutely drop dead gorgeous contractor working in the same office as me. Of course I chatted with her, was pleasant and sociable and professional, but I always felt awkward doing anything more. I felt very uneasy around her I have to say - I was very conscious as a contractor her position was not as secure as mine and any advances I made may have simply been accepted because she didn't want to upset permanent staff. It is really hard sometimes. All my friends didn't make any moves - they thought she was out of their league - I had a bit of that feeling too, but the other one was also there.

Thanks
Bill

 

[BWV]

The issue is a power differential - putting someone in a position where they have a legitimate concern that not accepting an advance might damage their potential for a career and livelihood

 

[bhobba]

The issue is a power differential - putting someone in a position where they have a legitimate concern that not accepting an advance might damage their potential for a career and livelihood

That was my exact concern.

They say managers have a higher proportion of sociopaths so maybe they are not as sensitive to it as they should be. Could be Krauss is in that mold. I have read though that high level functioning sociopaths have qualities suitable in certain situations, just like obsessive compulsive's. This makes it really hard. Anyway will have to leave it for a while - these are weighty issues though and I have no idea of their solution, but I need some sleep.

Thanks
Bill

 

[strangerep]

Let's just stop acting like total creeps.

Easier said than done. The id got wired up for survival over millions of years. The id wants what it wants, and doesn't listen to reason or morals.

 

[WWGD]

That is genuinely disgusting and repulsive.

EDIT
No, what's disgusting and repulsive is that many of the accused are judged in the court of public opinion and often lose their jobs and any hope of ever working again _ before_ going to trial. Talk about the hypocrisy of so many of the women's movements who constantly complained that their perspectives/takes were never aired under the (fabled, IMO) patriarchy, yet want to condemn all accused without giving them a chance to ...air their side . And the article , as so many do , does away with the necessary _Alleged_ modifier to statements: "...Several women ..personal accounts of misogyny and harassment..." as if these terms had a clear-cut definition and did not depend, vary, on different people's perspectives/culture/background: different people have different takes on what is misogynistic, what is harassment. Boundaries are nowhere as clear-cut as many in the modern Feminist movement make it out to be. Never mind that thee Feminists ignore the many areas where they (EDIT: meaning women) have it significantly better than men. In case anyone doubts my credentials, I get along perfectly fine with my mother, I received a gleaming recommendation from my female ex-manager and I keep in touch with many female ex-colleagues, so see how you can make me out into a misogynist. My mom worked her way from a humble upbringing into becoming a professional, without the alleged invisible barriers and glass ceiling; so did many of her friends of similarly-humble backgrounds.EDIT: Yes, this is not quite a controlled research study I have done, but this brings out the Pandora's box of much of the research conducted by Feminists in which harassment, discrimination are said to have occurred...when the women subjects declare that it has. So much for subjectivity. There has been an improvement in the level of rigor, but this is very recent, and there has not been enough time for these studies to be conducted independently by other researchers to test whether these results are reproducible, agreeing with the claims in the original, in order to claim that these are conclusive.
The movement is riddled with all sorts of biases, cherry-picking to start with.
This movement has degenerated into a witch hunt. It is difficult to see the legitimate issues behind the bias , hatefulness and hot-air.

 

[Dr Transport]

They say managers have a higher proportion of sociopaths so maybe they are not as sensitive to it as they should be.

I firmly believe this to be true, I have had the misfortune of working for multiple managers who should never have been promoted due to these tendencies. I have also seen this in academia, multiple college professors/department chairs have been moved within schools I am aware of due to this very behavior.

If LK is guilty, let it be decided in the courts not the court of public opinion. If found guilty, every college campus would find it prudent to ban him from campus and if guilty he'd have to register as a sex-offender and be tracked for pretty much the rest of his life and given that, he'll have a rough time living anywhere in civilized society.

 

[rootone]

Well it's definitely a bad argument that the crime somebody is accused of is so heinousness that that no trial is required.

 

[WWGD]

If LK is guilty, let it be decided in the courts not the court of public opinion. If found guilty, every college campus would find it prudent to ban him from campus and if guilty he'd have to register as a sex-offender and be tracked for pretty much the rest of his life and given that, he'll have a rough time living anywhere in civilized society.

Unfortunately, it does not work that way. Once accused, it is difficult to recover. Specially rich is the claim that men want to deny women their reproductive rights; " rights over their bodies" ignoring the fact that when a woman becomes pregnant it is her and only her who gets to decide whether the pregnancy will be brought to term. The man involved has no say whatsoever, yet mist bear the cost of raising the child through adulthood, which may require getting an additional job, moving out of state, etc. And they forget to bring up, with their repeated cries of oppression across the ages, that women have lied men into raising children not their own for centuries. And that many men who were not property owners could not vote -- yet had to go to die in wars, unlike women. Cherry-picking, to say the least.

 

[BWV]

There are a lot of things people can do to ruin their careers that are not crimes - plagiarism, fraudulent research, verbally abusing colleagues, spouting racist opinions etc. one of those is sexually harassment.

 

[WWGD]

There are a lot of things people can do to ruin their careers that are not crimes - plagiarism, fraudulent research, verbally abusing colleagues, spouting racist opinions etc. one of those is sexually harassment.

Unfortunately, Sexual harassment is not objective. True, if a man gropes a woman against her will, this is Sexual harassment, but there is plenty of ground in-between and plenty of difference in the perception of what is acceptable. Then there is the possibility of misunderstanding/miscommunication, etc. that must be factored before concluding harassment took place.

 

[DennisN]

I think it a shows how much of a sad state our society is when the solution we give women is to learn how to fight. Let's just stop acting like total creeps.

Easier said than done. The id got wired up for survival over millions of years. The id wants what it wants, and doesn't listen to reason or morals.

True. And if we add more tricky terms - like mental health and mental disorders - into the equation, we get a more complicated, but more realistic view of what the world really is like, i.e. there have been, are and will be troublesome people in the world. And I am sorry if I sound negative, but I believe creeps have always been around. It just takes time to uncover them. And sometimes they never get uncovered.

EDIT: We can also throw even more tricky terms into the equation, like alcohol and drugs, i.e. mind-, mood- and personality altering substances. So if a person has a strong id, mental health issues and substance abuse issues, things can get really complicated...

 

[bhobba]

Easier said than done. The id got wired up for survival over millions of years. The id wants what it wants, and doesn't listen to reason or morals.

It will take time - the first steps seem to have been taken, but a long way to go. Just look at Einstein. Great scientist for sure - but morally - not that lily white for want of a better word. And while Feynman's technique for picking up women is fair game in a free society - manipulating people like that is not the way I like things to be done.

Thanks
Bill

 

[bhobba]

EDITTalk about the hypocrisy of so many of the women's movements who constantly complained that their perspectives/takes were never aired under the (fabled, IMO) patriarchy, yet want to condemn all accused without giving them a chance to ...air their side

We have some vocal loony feminists, just as we have, purely as an example, some vocal loony aboriginals here in Australia. There are, fortunately not many, loons everywhere. But they are in the minority - most people can be reasoned with and via that debate and reasoning, through the democratic process, change will slowly occur. We will have setbacks etc - but I am confident over time things will improve.

Thanks
Bill

 

[jedishrfu]

One thing that hasn't been addressed here is that this isn't really talked about in school and that kids sometimes learn this behavior from books, movies, other media and other kids. It can be quite pernicious and hard to stop at this level even if we are proactive about it.

 

[kyphysics]

Looks like a real pattern of abuse

https://www.buzzfeed.com/peteraldho...nt-allegations?utm_term=.evXvede3W#.ikYy5N5p7

What is up with the world?

I've noticed two things happening with a lot of frequency lately and wonder if it's just that we now have more media coverage of them (and they've been happening all along) vs. there is an actual statistic uptick in this stuff.

1.) sexual harassment stuff of famous people
2.) threats of violence (where people post stuff on social media or random graffiti)...Just recently, former ASU DB football player was arrested for talking about "spraying the stadium." Locally, I saw a bunch of kids get arrested too for saying they were going to do stuff. None of those kids' threats turned out to be real thus far.

Is there some copycat stuff going on and/or get-out-of-school early pranks? Like kids just want to get to skip school and do this stuff as a joke?

It's like every week there's a new sexual harassment case of a famous person and now also some person getting arrested for making threats.

 

[Andy Resnick]

Looks like a real pattern of abuse

https://www.buzzfeed.com/peteraldho...nt-allegations?utm_term=.evXvede3W#.ikYy5N5p7

I'm not exactly surprised, although I never had first-hand knowledge of his behavior when I worked with him at CWRU (I taught Physics 1 during the summer as an adjunct). I think that was my first exposure to the "Whisper Network" (http://www.newsweek.com/what-whisper-network-sexual-misconduct-allegations-719009), but I didn't recognize what that meant at the time.

 

[WWGD]

We have some vocal loony feminists, just as we have, purely as an example, some vocal loony aboriginals here in Australia. There are, fortunately not many, loons everywhere. But they are in the minority - most people can be reasoned with and via that debate and reasoning, through the democratic process, change will slowly occur. We will have setbacks etc - but I am confident over time things will improve.

Thanks
Bill

You're more optimistic than I am, Bill, I think it is the other way around: most people parrot the views of those around them -- I don't necessarily blame them, as the world is a complicated place and it is difficult to assess everything in its own terms -- and the ( at least commercial) media blow things out of proportion because this is more likely to improve ratings. Terms like "Rape", " Harassment" are thrown around very casually. However horrible it is when these things happen, it is not much better when someone is falsely-accused.

 

[Fervent Freyja]

I think anyone that is assaulted has the right to hurt more than the assaulter's feelings. The human body has a number of points of vulnerability - I will name one that is very well known - the carotid sinus - but many others exist. I think anyone worried about physical attack needs to go to some self defense lessons and learn them. Believe it or not Tai Chi when taught properly by a person that teaches it as a martial art does just that. Plus it has many other benefits such as relaxation etc. Yes I have learned it. Its primary defensive technique is run away to live and fight another day - it's all a set-up to get out of there as fast as you can.

Thanks
Bill

I wish that men would understand the reason most women have difficulty dealing with this. It has taken me a long time to be able to protect myself from harassment. I had to learn to set up each new relationship with a man to put me in the position that if I had to do something that hurt their feelings or ruined the relationship, that I could do it without hesitancy.

There is often a conditioning period that goes unnoticed- this does not usually come out of the blue. The guy you get along with well at work, that for some reason, you like him pretty well and helps things run smoothly because you get along with him or sometimes is your boss- it's often this guy. He's not usually a jerk to everyone. They throw little tests to see what they can get away with before doing anything against policy. I have a set of reactions that I use, but only add one when I encounter something new. For instance, one GM started kneading my thigh standing behind me once over my desk and it took me by surprise, I brushed his hand off but didn't say anything. The next time he did it, I fixed the problem by telling him coldly, not to touch me again. And when he tried to be an ass about me not turning in a report on time, I give it right back to him by auditing his department for deliquent accounts and refusing to close it for him. We did that back and forth until he give up on it. I experienced things like that frequently. Women have to pick and choose, or else they'll always have complaints ongoing. Other solutions have been enlisting one of the more alpha type co-workers to deal with it. I prefer going the informal route, as it seems to be the most effective for me. Sometimes, it's very hard, because it may be someone I like. You idolize a Professor that wrote software for Chandra, but what do you do when he asks you to stay after class to inspect a lab pc making noise and then proceeds to talk you into the damn closet- you just stand there hoping you're now sending the message, no! But you do realize he may have got the idea from you being so excited in class, he thought you were looking at him a certain way when you were just excited about learning! I would never file something formal in that situation and I think I stopped it pretty effectively on my own.

Keep in mind too, women work hard to ensure relationships are in harmony and they are far more hesitant to hurt feelings, upset coworkers and get into trouble. They are more vulnerable because of many, many reasons and it's in our nature. We have a hard time hurting other's feelings and it takes a lot of experience to be able to do it.

I personally come off as easy-going and passive most of the time (head in the clouds) and it makes me a target. So, I've learned to always tackle new men and groups to show them I won't take any sh*t from the start. I can come across as cold and rigid at first, but only because I plan ahead so that I can be myself later on. Which is actually nice, although many people dislike me from that. I love how open women can be, and they shouldn't have to change so much just to protect themselves. Women's social skills are often most valuable to many companies. I think that male coworkers should be the one's watching out for them.

And I wrote it's usually a guy that doesn't come off as a jerk, but I've noticed that the one's that do it most often are actually underperforming and causing problems for the whole group.

If there is heavy male competition going on, the incompetent one's may find younger males or females to pick on in the workplace. So, if you are a male that is showing the guy up and outperforming him, then it's your duty to ensure the loser isn't going around bullying on account of it. I think women should learn how to defend themselves and I think men should be taught how to ignore all the feminist nonsense and take up for the women in the group. At least keep their eyes open it happening and help her deal with it.

Just some thoughts. I could write a book about it.

 

[DennisN]

There is often a conditioning period that goes unnoticed- this does not usually come out of the blue. The guy you get along with well at work, that for some reason, you like him pretty well and helps things run smoothly because you get along with him or sometimes is your boss- it's often this guy. He's not usually a jerk to everyone. They throw little tests to see what they can get away with before doing anything against policy.

I actually am aware of this process. It is - if I do not misunderstand you - something which sometimes in psychology is referred to as "grooming" (operant conditioning). (Sidenote: Btw, I might as well mention that I have studied some basic psychology at university, and some more off university)

 

[Fervent Freyja]

I actually am aware of this process. It is - if I do not misunderstand you - something which sometimes in psychology is referred to as "grooming" (operant conditioning). (Sidenote: Btw, I might as well mention that I have studied some basic psychology at university, and some more off university)

Yes, it has sometimes felt that way. I try not to like anybody until I can trust them. Because I am actually too soft with people I care about. When someone you respect or admire does it, it hurts and is confusing.

I think one thing media is missing, and it's big. Often, what people think is that the offender is simply sexually harrasing women only, as the guy doing it will have done it often before, however, those types also do it to younger or less experienced males in the same workplace! I have seen one guy that tried to do it to me, get brushed off by the more competent ones and go *straight* to young man and bully him.

 

[strangerep]

[...] however, those types also do it to younger or less experienced males in the same workplace! I have seen one guy that tried to do it to me, get brushed off by the more competent ones and go *straight* to young man and bully him.

Urk -- that reminds me of a Jane Goodall documentary (the lady that studies chimpanzee communities in Africa). One particular male chimpanzee was so incredibly nasty all the time that Jane was quite unable to make friends with him.

If human, he'd be diagnosed as a psychopath and locked away. He was so "alpha" and extremely violent that he'd become used to having sex with any of the female chimps anytime he liked. Then, one time, a female chimp denied him, started screaming and running away. The male chimp couldn't handle the rejection. He started screaming in anger and frustration, and then began taking it out violently on all the other chimps nearby (who promptly scattered in all directions).

 

[DennisN]

When someone you respect or admire does it, it hurts and is confusing.

Yes, I understand that.

I think one thing media is missing, and it's big. Often, what people think is that the offender is simply sexually harrasing women only, as the guy doing it will have done it often before, however, those types also do it to younger or less experienced males in the same workplace! I have seen one guy that tried to do it to me, get brushed off by the more competent ones and go *straight* to young man and bully him.

From what I know about this kind of people you describe is that they have a general problem with - or even disrespect of - personal boundaries. When people read what I wrote here people may think "duh, well, of course" . But I want to emphasize that this boundary problem is usually something than can be seen in other aspects of their life. They have trouble determining where the (psychological & physical) boundaries of themselves begin and where they end. Their boundaries get blurred with other people.

This can sometimes be seen with leaders who abuse their position and e.g. do financial scams and/or exploits people. Their boundaries have become blurred; they identify with the company or organization and act like they ARE the company or organization, and not a mere individual. This can also take forms of grandiosity.

Also, there is a term which can be one very useful early indicator (red flag) of troublesome people/organizations: love bombing. This technique is also something abusers, cults and scammers often use. If anyone is interested in e.g. psychological selfprotection you can e.g. google for more information about that topic ("love bombing").