Law of expansion for super heated steam

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the behavior of superheated steam in relation to the ideal gas law, exploring conditions under which superheated steam can be considered to exhibit ideal gas behavior. Participants examine factors such as pressure, density, and the implications of Boyle's law in the context of saturated vapors versus superheated steam.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants propose that superheated steam exhibits ideal gas behavior primarily at low pressures.
  • Others argue that it is more accurate to consider the density of the gas, suggesting that low density is a key factor for ideal gas behavior.
  • A participant notes that saturated vapors do not obey Boyle's law, as reducing their container volume leads to condensation, which alters the number of gas molecules and affects pressure.
  • In contrast, superheated steam does not condense, allowing it to better obey Boyle's law as the number of gas molecules remains constant.
  • There is a discussion about the compressibility factor (z) and its relationship with reduced temperature and pressure, indicating that z approaches 1.0 at low pressures, regardless of temperature.
  • Another participant emphasizes that the ideal gas approximation becomes suitable at higher specific volumes and lower densities, suggesting that gases approach ideal behavior under these conditions.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express some agreement on the conditions under which superheated steam behaves like an ideal gas, particularly regarding low density and pressure. However, there remains a lack of consensus on the implications of pressure and density, as well as the comparison with saturated vapors.

Contextual Notes

Participants reference graphs of compressibility factors and T-V plots, indicating that the discussion is informed by thermodynamic principles, but specific assumptions and definitions regarding pressure and density are not fully resolved.

Soumalya
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Ideal gas behavior of super heated steam

Why is super heated steam said to exhibit ideal gas behavior?
 
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Soumalya said:
Why is super heated steam said to exhibit ideal gas behavior?
It exhibits approximately ideal gas behavior if the pressure is low enough.

Chet
 
Chestermiller: I prefer to say "if the density is low enough". I'm not sure that high pressure due to high temperature would make a gas less like an ideal gas.

There may be another point here…Saturated vapours don't appear to obey Boyle's law at all. If we decrease their container volume, the vapour condenses, so their are fewer molecules in the 'gas' and the pressure fails to rise. But with superheated steam, there's no chance of it condensing, so the number of 'gas' molecules doesn't change, and Boyle's law is obeyed well.
 
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Philip Wood said:
Chestermiller: I prefer to say "if the density is low enough". I'm not sure that high pressure due to high temperature would make a gas less like an ideal gas.
Thanks Philip.

Most thermo books have graphs of compressibility factor z as a function of reduced temperature and reduced pressure. This pretty much tells most of the story. One need only identify combined ranges of T and P for which z is close to 1.0. Of course, in the limit of low pressures, z approaches 1.0 irrespective of the temperature.

Chet
 
Philip Wood said:
Chestermiller: I prefer to say "if the density is low enough". I'm not sure that high pressure due to high temperature would make a gas less like an ideal gas.

There may be another point here…Saturated vapours don't appear to obey Boyle's law at all. If we decrease their container volume, the vapour condenses, so their are fewer molecules in the 'gas' and the pressure fails to rise. But with superheated steam, there's no chance of it condensing, so the number of 'gas' molecules doesn't change, and Boyle's law is obeyed well.


Agreed!

From the T-V plot of steam at superheated regions the ideal gas behavior is most accurate with increasing specific volumes at low pressures obviously.Also as pressure is increased a significantly higher rise in specific volumes would mean ideal gas approximation to be suitable.This indicates gases would approach ideal behavior at very low densities.
 
Chestermiller said:
Thanks Philip.

Most thermo books have graphs of compressibility factor z as a function of reduced temperature and reduced pressure. This pretty much tells most of the story. One need only identify combined ranges of T and P for which z is close to 1.0. Of course, in the limit of low pressures, z approaches 1.0 irrespective of the temperature.

Chet

Thanks Chestermiller:smile:
 
Soumalya said:
Agreed!

From the T-V plot of steam at superheated regions the ideal gas behavior is most accurate with increasing specific volumes at low pressures obviously.Also as pressure is increased a significantly higher rise in specific volumes would mean ideal gas approximation to be suitable.This indicates gases would approach ideal behavior at very low densities.
I see what you're saying. You're saying that the limit of low densities covers more territory in P-T space than just low pressure in identifying a broad region where the ideal gas law will apply.

Chet
 
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Chestermiller said:
I see what you're saying. You're saying that the limit of low densities covers more territory in P-T space than just low pressure in identifying a broad region where the ideal gas law will apply.

Chet

Exactly Chet!
 

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